REV vs Ramcharger - who would buy a REV?

[StuartV]

Ok Im an old retard but what in the hell are battery powered “underwater scooters”?

This is one:

Genesis 3.1 | Logic Dive Gear

logicdivegear.com

Me in action with one of mine:

 

[Willwork4truck]

Thats a great video. Ok, stupid literal me thought it was a ride on scooter.
“What a dork.”

 

[Darksteel165]

Honest question:
Have you read ANY information on how the generator in the ramcharger is designed to function?

Yes, but I have found documents that 100% conflict with each other, and lots that have sales lingo crap which doesn't make sense.

Is this not true from Caranddriver for example? It's ultra clear to me.

 

[theblet]

Peeps better get a 7 year Max 0 deductible Mopar warranty with that drivetrain. Can you imagine the cost to repair?

Will the techs even know what to do the first year (2025)?

Remember the forum posts on the early adopters 48v mild hybrid battery pack issues? Yep they have mostly been worked through by now but there was a lot of anxiety and frustration in forum posts back a few years.

I can only imagine what the early adopters will go through with this new drivetrain complexity.

My first year 2015 aluminum bed F150 caused body shops lots of issues due to not being trained up/certified on aluminum. Repair costs went up, insurance costs increased… Nothing like what‘s happening with the EV’s though.
It will all get worked out.

Ain’t that the truth. The defects and recalls are going to be rough, as with any new tech.

 

[StuartV]

Peeps better get a 7 year Max 0 deductible Mopar warranty with that drivetrain. Can you imagine the cost to repair?

Will the techs even know what to do the first year (2025)?

Remember the forum posts on the early adopters 48v mild hybrid battery pack issues? Yep they have mostly been worked through by now but there was a lot of anxiety and frustration in forum posts back a few years.

I can only imagine what the early adopters will go through with this new drivetrain complexity.

My first year 2015 aluminum bed F150 caused body shops lots of issues due to not being trained up/certified on aluminum. Repair costs went up, insurance costs increased… Nothing like what‘s happening with the EV’s though.
It will all get worked out.

Autos with battery packs are not new. Autos with electric motors to drive the wheels are not new. The Pentastar 3.6L V6 is not new.

I think there is a lot of FUD being spread around about the Ramcharger and I am skeptical that it is going to be as bug-ridden, expensive, or complex to repair or maintain as some people are suggesting.

But obviously, time will tell.

EVs use chargers that are powered by energy created by coal, so is that also an EV?
The Ram charger is a hybrid. It has an regular old engine in it. You can call it a generator if you like but it's literally an 3.6 pentastar. Lip stick on a pig... Still a pig.
It does have electric motors so it's a new kind of hybrid is all.

You said a Mr Fusion-power car is an EV because the power plant generates electricity to motivate the vehicle. All I'm saying is, by that criteria the Ramcharger is also an EV. If you want to assert that the Ramcharger is a hybrid, then so is a garbage-fueled Mr Fusion-powered vehicle.

It can't make the wheels move by the ice engine alone as it only had electric motors. You take the battery out of the ram charger and you can no longer move an inch without getting out and pushing it no matter how much gas you throw into the secondary engine as it can't be used to charge the battery so the electric motors can go.

The information that has been put out, including the interview with the Ramcharger lead engineer, suggests that, despite repeating it numerous times, you are still wrong. The lead engineer explicitly stated that the ICE generator can directly power the EDMs under some conditions. So, no, it does not necessarily even have to have a battery pack in order to be driven.

Whether they will program it that way remains to be seen.

Anyway... this is all semantics and a waste of typing, so, umm, sure, you're right. Whatever you say is correct. I am done debating a moot point.

 

[Jimmy07]

Yes, but I have found documents that 100% conflict with each other, and lots that have sales lingo crap which doesn't make sense.

Well, it’s actually very simple.
You have motors that need electricity to turn the wheels.
You have a generator that generates electricity.
That electricity that is generated is put onto the high voltage bus
There are different electric vehicle modes that can be selected in the radio.
The electricity generated by the generator can be sent directly to the motors to power them, can be sent directly to the battery to charge it, or a combination of both.

IOW, the order of power flow is not limited to the power that is generated by the generator only being used to charge the batteries, and the motors being supplied electricity directly from the batteries only.

 

[theblet]

We know the v6 can power the motors directly, but will the programming allow this without the batteries installed? Idk. The dash might say “battery pack not detected, see dealer” or something, and not run.

 

[StuartV]

We know the v6 can power the motors directly, but will the programming allow this without the batteries installed? Idk. The dash might say “battery pack not detected, see dealer” or something, and not run.

My gut says the more relevant question is, if you have some fault with the battery pack that prevents it from being charged/discharged, can you still use the ICE generator by itself to drive the truck to a dealership for repair?

I don't see anyone trying to drive with no battery pack installed. But, I could see having a defect that makes the battery pack "unavailable".

 

[Chris5.9]

I will replace my 06 Megacab with a Ramcharger phev. I won't buy the first one. I hope Dodge delivers it before Rev since it's likely to be a much better seller until ss batteries are commonplace!

 

[cpetku]

Interested in the RamCharger but disillusioned as well. When doing simple math dividing Battery mileage by Battery capacity, the RamCharger is quite a bit less efficient than the REV. It's electrical power consumption is more aligned with a Hummer than a REV or even a Silverado. I hope the initial estimates are wrong.

I'm also still waiting to see how the states are going to recover road taxes normally part of gasoline prices. During annual registration, will it be a charge on a per pound basis * some mileage factor or simply a percentage of the new vehicle cost each year? If one can afford an EV, then should one have to pay more than their previous taxes for road upkeep?

Socialism at it's finest. Legislate the market to get people to buy something then tax the devil out of them for buying it.

 

[Darksteel165]

Interested in the RamCharger but disillusioned as well. When doing simple math dividing Battery mileage by Battery capacity, the RamCharger is quite a bit less efficient than the REV. It's electrical power consumption is more aligned with a Hummer than a REV or even a Silverado. I hope the initial estimates are wrong.

I'm also still waiting to see how the states are going to recover road taxes normally part of gasoline prices. During annual registration, will it be a charge on a per pound basis * some mileage factor or simply a percentage of the new vehicle cost each year? If one can afford an EV, then should one have to pay more than their previous taxes for road upkeep?

Socialism at it's finest. Legislate the market to get people to buy something then tax the devil out of them for buying it.

Some states are already charging an EV tax on registration.

 

[HSKR R/T]

Interested in the RamCharger but disillusioned as well. When doing simple math dividing Battery mileage by Battery capacity, the RamCharger is quite a bit less efficient than the REV. It's electrical power consumption is more aligned with a Hummer than a REV or even a Silverado. I hope the initial estimates are wrong.

I'm also still waiting to see how the states are going to recover road taxes normally part of gasoline prices. During annual registration, will it be a charge on a per pound basis * some mileage factor or simply a percentage of the new vehicle cost each year? If one can afford an EV, then should one have to pay more than their previous taxes for road upkeep?

Socialism at it's finest. Legislate the market to get people to buy something then tax the devil out of them for buying it.

The Ramcharger has a smaller battery pack than a full EV. So the range in battery will be less. And efficiency will be lower due to smaller batter, but heavier weight due to the ICE and generator

 

[cpetku]

The Ramcharger has a smaller battery pack than a full EV. So the range in battery will be less. And efficiency will be lower due to smaller batter, but heavier weight due to the ICE and generator

I was hoping the weight of the engine/generator would be offset by the weight of a smaller battery. If it balanced out, then the battery efficiency should be the same as the REV assuming it's using the same voltage EDM. Even if it didn't balance, I have a hard time believing the increased weight as a fraction of total vehicle weight justifies a 25% drop in efficiency when operating on battery alone.

Now if the REV uses an 800V EDM and the Charger a 400V then I might see a difference in efficiency due to I*R losses. However, I believe the larger batteries simply are switched between parallel (400v) for running the vehicle and series (800V) for fast charging. This explains why the REV can add more miles per minute when using the appropriate charger.

 

[cpetku]

Some states are already charging an EV tax on registration.

I know. I just don't trust politicians to keep their hands out of my pocket. While current rates seem reasonable as more EV's are adopted, I expect road taxes to increase. The argument will be EV's weigh more and therefore cause more wear and tear. The real issue is trucks and busses which weigh significantly more than any EV.

I guess I'll have to hold onto my Model A to make sure I have a car with reasonable registration fees once I transition from a CRD Jeep Grand Cherokee to an EV. The CRD does what I need with a 7000 tow capacity quite well, but being an 07, it needs replacement steel panels (fenders, doors...). While the OM642 diesel may run another few years without major issue, I doubt the transmission will. Then again, one never knows. Last year a serpentine belt took out part of the intercooler when a bearing failed...

States That Charge Extra Fees To Own An Electric Vehicle | MYEV.com

Learn how State fees for EV ownership ranges from a low of $50 per year to a high of $200.

www.myev.com

 

[go-ram]

Interested in the RamCharger but disillusioned as well. When doing simple math dividing Battery mileage by Battery capacity, the RamCharger is quite a bit less efficient than the REV. It's electrical power consumption is more aligned with a Hummer than a REV or even a Silverado. I hope the initial estimates are wrong.

I'm also still waiting to see how the states are going to recover road taxes normally part of gasoline prices. During annual registration, will it be a charge on a per pound basis * some mileage factor or simply a percentage of the new vehicle cost each year? If one can afford an EV, then should one have to pay more than their previous taxes for road upkeep?

Socialism at it's finest. Legislate the market to get people to buy something then tax the devil out of them for buying it.

.
Yeah, the mandating part of it is completely wrong.
.
But charging road-use fees based on vehicle weight & miles traveled IS the most fair way to have every user pay their share of the upkeep.
.
Pure and simple, it's physics, combined with personal responsibliity: The heavier a vehicle is, the more miles that vehicle travels, the more that vehicle owner should pay, because that vehicle is inherently "using up" more of the life of the roadway.
.
The sad part, is, it's become a political issue rather than the logistical issue it should have always been. Physics is physics and personal responsibility is just that, personal responsibility. The only problem is, elected officials are devoid of good sense, so they come up with ill-advised solutions that were wrong from the get-go, and sadly, frustratingly, we have to live with them.
.

 

[mikeru82]

Interested in the RamCharger but disillusioned as well. When doing simple math dividing Battery mileage by Battery capacity, the RamCharger is quite a bit less efficient than the REV. It's electrical power consumption is more aligned with a Hummer than a REV or even a Silverado. I hope the initial estimates are wrong.

Electrical efficiency between the Rev and the Ramcharger isn't even on my radar. The whole point of the Ramcharger is that it has a gasoline powered generator to extend the range far beyond what you can get from the Rev. The two vehicles are meant for different types of buyers. Those who are okay with a truck that's 100 percent dependent on plugging in to charge, and those who are not. The 150 mile battery range of the Ramcharger is more than enough for my daily commutes. Charge overnight and repeat. I would only need to use gasoline on the weekends when we tend to drive quite a bit more.

 

[silver billet]

Electrical efficiency between the Rev and the Ramcharger isn't even on my radar. The whole point of the Ramcharger is that it has a gasoline powered generator to extend the range far beyond what you can get from the Rev. The two vehicles are meant for different types of buyers. Those who are okay with a truck that's 100 percent dependent on plugging in to charge, and those who are not. The 150 mile battery range of the Ramcharger is more than enough for my daily commutes. Charge overnight and repeat. I would only need to use gasoline on the weekends when we tend to drive quite a bit more.

Exactly. I won't even consider the Rev, never going to happen this decade and probably not next either.

The Ramcharger though, that all depends on cost.

 

[cpetku]

Exactly. I won't even consider the Rev, never going to happen this decade and probably not next either.

The Ramcharger though, that all depends on cost.

My assumption is like the Silverado, early cost estimates on both (REV & Charger) are lower than what the vehicle will be introduced for. Since a loaded gas Limited can go in the 80's I expect the EV's to be at least 10K more and the Tungston group to drive it over 100K just like the Silverado. A lot of affordable hype up front followed by updated pricing taking out of most peoples budget. If I go this route it's my retirement present (a couple of years early). I just have to be sure it won't quickly become a boat anchor since its a first year vehicle. I've never leased a car, but this might be the first time so I know what my walk away costs will be if the truck is problem ridden.

 

[cpetku]

Electrical efficiency between the Rev and the Ramcharger isn't even on my radar. The whole point of the Ramcharger is that it has a gasoline powered generator to extend the range far beyond what you can get from the Rev. The two vehicles are meant for different types of buyers. Those who are okay with a truck that's 100 percent dependent on plugging in to charge, and those who are not. The 150 mile battery range of the Ramcharger is more than enough for my daily commutes. Charge overnight and repeat. I would only need to use gasoline on the weekends when we tend to drive quite a bit more.

Based upon the fuel tank and expected range from it, when running from the generator fuel economy is probably no better than a Hurricane based 1500. So the question I am looking at is the extra cost for the electric side justified over the life of the vehicle. This is where looking at the Miles/KWH and cost/KWH come into play. It's probably like getting a $1.00 per gallon savings by using electric instead of Gas and paying for that up front. Ignoring cost of capital and assuming the truck costs $10K more than an equivalent hurricane that's the equivalent of 10,000 gallons of fuel to get a payback. At 20 MPG it seems to take 200,000 miles compared to maybe 150,000 miles on a REV.

The only way an EV with low Miles/KW makes sense is really bragging rights since the MPG (gas) isn't any better than a gas 1500.

That said, I added an 8KW solar array to my house (in Michigan) about years ago. The only real justification was the Tax and Utility credits. It really hasn't saved me any money since the utility changed the rate they pay for excess solar during the day (when I'm not home and can't use it). It gives bragging rights, but doesn't really save any costs.

Do I want to have bragging rights, Yes.
Do I need more than 150 miles per day in my current job? No
Do I want a truck which can pull a trailer or take a 200 Mile trip? Yes
Do I really want to spend $100K+ on a vehicle with a limited life span two years before I retire, I'm not sure.
Do I think any EV will power my house in a power outage: Not really, I currently use a 15KW generator connected to the PTO of my tractor. 7.2 KW is lame and the V6/Genset can do so much more

 

[HSKR R/T]

Based upon the fuel tank and expected range from it, when running from the generator fuel economy is probably no better than a Hurricane based 1500. So the question I am looking at is the extra cost for the electric side justified over the life of the vehicle. This is where looking at the Miles/KWH and cost/KWH come into play. It's probably like getting a $1.00 per gallon savings by using electric instead of Gas and paying for that up front. Ignoring cost of capital and assuming the truck costs $10K more than an equivalent hurricane that's the equivalent of 10,000 gallons of fuel to get a payback. At 20 MPG it seems to take 200,000 miles compared to maybe 150,000 miles on a REV.

The only way an EV with low Miles/KW makes sense is really bragging rights since the MPG (gas) isn't any better than a gas 1500.

That said, I added an 8KW solar array to my house (in Michigan) about years ago. The only real justification was the Tax and Utility credits. It really hasn't saved me any money since the utility changed the rate they pay for excess solar during the day (when I'm not home and can't use it). It gives bragging rights, but doesn't really save any costs.

Do I want to have bragging rights, Yes.
Do I need more than 150 miles per day in my current job? No
Do I want a truck which can pull a trailer or take a 200 Mile trip? Yes
Do I really want to spend $100K+ on a vehicle with a limited life span two years before I retire, I'm not sure.
Do I think any EV will power my house in a power outage: Not really, I currently use a 15KW generator connected to the PTO of my tractor. 7.2 KW is lame and the V6/Genset can do so much more

You can't really look at the fuel milage as only the range specified for fuel alone, but total range when driving. Since most will never drive it far enough on a daily basis to ever need to use the ICE for power, you greatly extend the miles before you need to fill the gas tank. So you don't need to drive 200k miles to get the savings if you only have to fill the tank 2-3 times a year with normal daily driving