REV vs Ramcharger - who would buy a REV?

[mikeru82]

From the IRS website...

In addition, the vehicle's manufacturer suggested retail price (MSRP) can't exceed:

• $80,000 for vans, sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks

Also, how much does one need to make (annual income) to be able to afford payments on a truck costing $100K or more? That may trigger the income exclusion for EV tax credits...

Certainly some trim levels will exceed $80k, but there will be trim levels that fall below that. I haven't looked at the IRS website for details yet, but I've read that the rules will be changing for next year. But even with the current rules, I know people who make more than I do who have qualified for the full $7500 tax credit. The other route to take is to do a lease, in which case the dealership gets the full tax credit. Which is then applied towards your lease agreement.

 

[theblet]

Certainly some trim levels will exceed $80k, but there will be trim levels that fall below that. I haven't looked at the IRS website for details yet, but I've read that the rules will be changing for next year. But even with the current rules, I know people who make more than I do who have qualified for the full $7500 tax credit. The other route to take is to do a lease, in which case the dealership gets the full tax credit. Which is then applied towards your lease agreement.

Leasing would be good so you can just get a new one when the EV batteries go out. Those are not cheap

 

[Darksteel165]

Leasing would be good so you can just get a new one when the EV batteries go out. Those are not cheap

Regular maitance is part of a lease, you need to get oil changes in a regular ICE car.
I am sure dealerships will be charging a battery fee as a % of the original vehicle price.

The house always wins.

 

[mikeru82]

Regular maitance is part of a lease, you need to get oil changes in a regular ICE car.
I am sure dealerships will be charging a battery fee as a % of the original vehicle price.

The house always wins.

If that were true it would be happening now with every EV leased. As far as I know that isn't happening.

 

[Darksteel165]

If that were true it would be happening now with every EV leased. As far as I know that isn't happening.

We are starting to see EV fees on registrations... Give it time for suckers to buy into EVs first...

Frog in the boiling pot...

 

[theblet]

Regular maitance is part of a lease, you need to get oil changes in a regular ICE car.
I am sure dealerships will be charging a battery fee as a % of the original vehicle price.

The house always wins.

I wonder what they will call it …..battery reconditioning or some BS

 

[go-ram]

I currently have a Kia Sorento PHEV with a ~32 mile EV range. Looking at my fuel mileage over the past 12 months, I drove roughly 14.5k miles, of which ~9.5k miles were in 100% EV mode, ~2k miles were in partial EV mode (EV propulsion but the ICE on for heat), and the remaining ~3k miles were in hybrid mode.

If the Ramcharger has a heat pump, looking at the exact same driving pattern over the past 12 months, I'd only have about 1000-1500 miles in generator mode. Given the disparity between electricity costs and gas costs here, the Ramcharger would be a slam dunk from a running $$ perspective compared to a Hurricane for my use case.

.
Just curious, what are the costs of gasoline per gallon and electricity per kWh where you are?
.
Where I live in SoCal, diesel is holding solidly around $5.50/gal and my electricity tiers are $0.33 and $0.43/kWh.
.

 

[habu987]

.
Just curious, what are the costs of gasoline per gallon and electricity per kWh where you are?
.
Where I live in SoCal, diesel is holding solidly around $5.50/gal and my electricity tiers are $0.33 and $0.43/kWh.
.

Electricity is about $0.145/kwh including all taxes and fees. Gasoline is all over the place, but on average around $3.40 for 87.

 

[theblet]

How many kilowatt hours does the ram charger hold?

 

[jimothy]

How many kilowatt hours does the ram charger hold?

Its battery capacity is 92kWh, according to the Ram website.

 

[cpetku]

Its battery capacity is 92kWh, according to the Ram website.

I think I read somewhere that this will only charge to ~80% of the battery capacity to make the battery last longer (just like my Samsung Phone). Did anyone else see this and if so, is the 144 miles based upon full charge or the battery savings charge. Just curious on how marketing spins these things.

 

[HSKR R/T]

I think I read somewhere that this will only charge to ~80% of the battery capacity to make the battery last longer (just like my Samsung Phone). Did anyone else see this and if so, is the 144 miles based upon full charge or the battery savings charge. Just curious on how marketing spins these things.

It will only fast charge to 80%, then it reduces charge rate until battery is completely charged

 

[cpetku]

.
Just curious, what are the costs of gasoline per gallon and electricity per kWh where you are?
.
Where I live in SoCal, diesel is holding solidly around $5.50/gal and my electricity tiers are $0.33 and $0.43/kWh.
.

There are lots of residential rate plans in Michigan, but with distribution fees and off-peak it seems to be around $0.15/KW-H. On peak looks to be in the mid/upper 20's My cost for Diesel is in between mid-grade and premium gasoline prices.

An interesting point is the 546 mile range afforded by the generator is roughly 20 MPG and what I assume the Hurricane will achieve, so the $0.27 (below) is probably a reasonable estimate for series hybrid operation or a standard Hurricane power vehicle in your area. If the Hurricane gets better mileage, then the cost analysis gets worse for the Ramcharger. If the Battery only operation does not achieve close to 144 miles on a charge then again, the cost analysis gets worse for the Ramcharger.

The way I figure it, the high cost of electric in your area still favors electric operation with similar break-even to what might be expected from a 2025 gas powered 1500. I wouldn't try to justify this based upon payback unless you expect gas costs to increase much more rapidly than electric.

$0.33​

per KW-H

*

70.8​

KW

/

90%​

chg eff

=

$25.96​

Charged

/

144​

mi

=

$0.18​

per mi

$5.40​

per ga

*

27​

ga

=

$145.80​

Fueled

/

546​

mi

=

$0.27​

per mi

At $0.15 per KWH and $3.75/ga for fuel (roughly my situation), assuming the vehicle costs an extra $10K and ignoring cost of capital, I'd be at over 90K miles to break even. Considering I live in Michigan with cold winters, I probably won't be getting 144 miles per charge.

$0.15​

per KW-H

*

70.8​

KW

/

90%​

chg eff

=

$11.80​

Charged

/

144​

mi

=

$0.08​

per mi

$3.75​

per ga

20​

MPG

=

$0.19​

per mi

This vehicle won't save me any money in the long run and unless battery replacement prices come down, it will be more expensive than a pure gas truck. But, I still want an EV that can tow, that would be cool.

All that said, I've been told I can't evaluate the costs this way... Maybe I have to add in maintenance fees for the 3.6L? The 90% charge efficiency (not all power goes into the battery) is just a guestimate. Will a Hurricane be unable to achieve 20MPG? But until someone points out a major error in my assumptions, this is what I believe.

3/10 Updated based upon only 70.8 KW of the 92 KW battery pack is "Useable". The remainder is not subject to discharge

 

[go-ram]

There are lots of residential rate plans in Michigan, but with distribution fees and off-peak it seems to be around $0.15/KW-H. On peak looks to be in the mid/upper 20's My cost for Diesel is in between mid-grade and premium gasoline prices.

An interesting point is the 546 mile range afforded by the generator is roughly 20 MPG and what I assume the Hurricane will achieve, so the $0.27 (below) is probably a reasonable estimate for series hybrid operation or a standard Hurricane power vehicle in your area. If the Hurricane gets better mileage, then the cost analysis gets worse for the Ramcharger. If the Battery only operation does not achieve close to 144 miles on a charge then again, the cost analysis gets worse for the Ramcharger.

The way I figure it, the high cost of electric in your area almost makes this a break-even for the two operating modes but electric still seems to win. Don't try to justify this based upon payback unless you expect gas costs to increase much more rapidly than electric.

$0.33​

per KW-H

*

92​

KW

/

90%​

chg eff

=

$33.73​

Charged

/

144​

mi

=

$0.23​

per mi

$5.40​

per ga

*

27​

ga

=

$145.80​

Fueled

/

546​

mi

=

$0.27​

per mi

At $0.15 per KWH and $3.75/ga for fuel (roughly my situation), assuming the vehicle costs an extra $10K and ignoring cost of capital, I'd be at over 125K miles to break even. Considering I live in Michigan with cold winters, I probably won't be getting 144 miles per charge.

$0.15​

per KW-H

*

92​

KW

/

90%​

chg eff

=

$15.33​

Charged

/

144​

mi

=

$0.11​

per mi

$3.75​

per ga

20​

MPG

=

$0.19​

per mi

This vehicle won't save me any money in the long run and unless battery replacement prices come down, it will be more expensive than a pure gas truck. But, I still want an EV that can tow, that would be cool.

All that said, I've been told I can't evaluate the costs this way... Maybe I have to add in maintenance fees for the 3.6L? The 90% charge efficiency (not all power goes into the battery) is just a guestimate. Will a Hurricane be unable to achieve 20MPG? But until someone points out a major error in my assumptions, this is what I believe.

.
Thank you for the detailed cost analysis, that's cool.
.
My situation is a bit different, in that I currently have an EcoDiesel but the vast, vast majority of my driving these days is short local trips (I live less than 10 miles form work). At the time I bought the ED, there were plans to move out of town to a property of several acres, so the truck would have been necessary and the ED made sense. Divorce changed the calculus drastically and now I have a diesel but a very short commute, which of course is death on a diesel's emissions gear. So I rarely use the ED, instead driving a beater Prius for all of my short, in-town trips. I only fire up the ED for use on the highway now.
.
All that to say, for my particular situation it's much less about payback period and more about having a vehicle I would love to drive that is appropriate for my use-case, i.e. short tripping. I know a Ramcharger would not be the most fiscally astute vehicle for me, but I love driving a pickup and so I hope to be able to get the joy of driving a pickup again but not ruining a perfectly good diesel. Whoever gets my ED will be a happy camper - a beautiful 2020 Longhorn ED with maybe 13,000 miles on it if I end up buying a Ramcharger in early 2025.
.
Thanks again for the detailed cost-workup scenarios, I appreciate the work you put into it.
.

 

[cpetku]

.
Thank you for the detailed cost analysis, that's cool.
.
My situation is a bit different, in that I currently have an EcoDiesel but the vast, vast majority of my driving these days is short local trips (I live less than 10 miles form work). At the time I bought the ED, there were plans to move out of town to a property of several acres, so the truck would have been necessary and the ED made sense. Divorce changed the calculus drastically and now I have a diesel but a very short commute, which of course is death on a diesel's emissions gear. So I rarely use the ED, instead driving a beater Prius for all of my short, in-town trips. I only fire up the ED for use on the highway now.
.
All that to say, for my particular situation it's much less about payback period and more about having a vehicle I would love to drive that is appropriate for my use-case, i.e. short tripping. I know a Ramcharger would not be the most fiscally astute vehicle for me, but I love driving a pickup and so I hope to be able to get the joy of driving a pickup again but not ruining a perfectly good diesel. Whoever gets my ED will be a happy camper - a beautiful 2020 Longhorn ED with maybe 13,000 miles on it if I end up buying a Ramcharger in early 2025.
.
Thanks again for the detailed cost-workup scenarios, I appreciate the work you put into it.
.

I like my 2007 Grand Chrokee Diesel as well (engine from Diamler). Diesels are great for their low end tourque and trailering. It's the right size as a daily driver and can tow as needed. That's why I struggle with what to buy to replace it as the body panels rot out (the engine will live forever). I considered the Jeep 4XE's but really dislike a 4 cylinder engine for towing.

EV's are kind of cool, but I don't trust them to haul a trailer across town when I need it. That's where the marketing angle on the RC sets it apart. But being an engineer, I try to look throught the glitz and understand the reality of the situation. Marketting will always try to convince people that their wants are needs. I'm simply focused that this is a want and trying to decide what it's worth to me (I don't need it).

As one person pointed out, maybe the right thing is to lease a RamCharger to make sure they are reliable before jumping in whole hog. If the residual in a lease shows the comapny trusts the truck to hold it's value, then I'll probably bite. If it shows that FCA/Stelantis thinks it's a boat anchor after three years then I'll be looking at a gas powered truck. I've never considered a lease before, but it's making a lot of sence on this vehicle. Worst case, others are right, the residual will be overstated and I'll have avoided a big mistake. If the residual is low, then maybe I get a deal in the end. It all comes down to finance fees and what incentives are available. If the dealership can roll in the Tax Credit into the lease, that would be a benefit.

I still have reservations on a Silverado EV, but that has been delayed by almost two years and had a significant change in estimated MSRP. I put in for the RamCharger Insider deal ($100) to see which comes to fruition first. I'll let the manufacturers/dealers confidence in the product (residuals) guide me on the best route when these vehicles become reality.

 

[Rick3478]

Something I noticed, and haven't really thought this through, about EV's in general versus other electrical stuff on the market.

It seems that most things that achieve good market acceptance have easily replaceable batteries, either disposable open standard batteries or in the case of power tools, proprietary batteries that are easy to swap.

Or in the case of cell phones and tablets, the whole thing is disposed, although you can theoretically replace batteries, but no one does because a newer and better device is available by that time.

The battery design of EV's seems to resemble the latter case more than the former. Does that mean makers consider them to be disposable, and don't really expect to be replacing batteries much? And if it comes down to it, will they even be willing or able to replace batteries? Sure they are giving theoretical prices, but do you know anyone who's actually had it done? And considering that it's a dirty little not-too secret that old batteries are dangerous to handle, I can see how they may really just not want to do it. They could even just refuse if it's out of warranty.

So, food for thought - given that KiloWatt-Hour and condition requirements are so similar, why aren't they standardizing? Or at least why aren't they making them easy to replace?

And what if, when your old EV is worn out, no one will take it off your hands?

 

[cpetku]

Something I noticed, and haven't really thought this through, about EV's in general versus other electrical stuff on the market.

It seems that most things that achieve good market acceptance have easily replaceable batteries, either disposable open standard batteries or in the case of power tools, proprietary batteries that are easy to swap.

Or in the case of cell phones and tablets, the whole thing is disposed, although you can theoretically replace batteries, but no one does because a newer and better device is available by that time.

The battery design of EV's seems to resemble the latter case more than the former. Does that mean makers consider them to be disposable, and don't really expect to be replacing batteries much? And if it comes down to it, will they even be willing or able to replace batteries? Sure they are giving theoretical prices, but do you know anyone who's actually had it done? And considering that it's a dirty little not-too secret that old batteries are dangerous to handle, I can see how they may really just not want to do it. They could even just refuse if it's out of warranty.

So, food for thought - given that KiloWatt-Hour and condition requirements are so similar, why aren't they standardizing? Or at least why aren't they making them easy to replace?

And what if, when your old EV is worn out, no one will take it off your hands?

The last question is why I'm buying into the idea of leasing (if the residual is high enough).

I find the marketing videos of the RAM EV designs to be more service friendly than the GM. While both show battery cells are installed from the top of the pack, the RAM video shows the completed pack is installed from the bottom of the vehicle using the frame rails. The GM videos all seem to imply the battery pack is not removable through the bottom of the vehicle. If this is the case, then servicing the battery poack would be through the interior of the vehicle which doesn't make sense

Something I noticed, and haven't really thought this through, about EV's in general versus other electrical stuff on the market.

It seems that most things that achieve good market acceptance have easily replaceable batteries, either disposable open standard batteries or in the case of power tools, proprietary batteries that are easy to swap.

Or in the case of cell phones and tablets, the whole thing is disposed, although you can theoretically replace batteries, but no one does because a newer and better device is available by that time.

The battery design of EV's seems to resemble the latter case more than the former. Does that mean makers consider them to be disposable, and don't really expect to be replacing batteries much? And if it comes down to it, will they even be willing or able to replace batteries? Sure they are giving theoretical prices, but do you know anyone who's actually had it done? And considering that it's a dirty little not-too secret that old batteries are dangerous to handle, I can see how they may really just not want to do it. They could even just refuse if it's out of warranty.

So, food for thought - given that KiloWatt-Hour and condition requirements are so similar, why aren't they standardizing? Or at least why aren't they making them easy to replace?

And what if, when your old EV is worn out, no one will take it off your hands?

Watching marketing videos of the RAM and Silverado EV platforms, I am concerned the GM platform may have serviceability issues, Both show battery cells being loaded from the top of the pack, but the GM doesn't show a complete frame rail system. The RAM seems to show the fully assembled pack is assembled into the frame from the bottom side and thus is removeable/replaceable/serviceable. Regardless of which manufacturer I go with, serviceability of the battery pack will be key in my decision. Could you imagine sort of a unibody design where serviceability of the batteries requires access from the interior? This would be the case if the pack isn't removeable as an assembly from beneath the vehicle and would kill resale value in a heartbeat. I doubt any vehicle manufacturer would be that foolish.

The other serviceability issue which RAM seems to have addressed with a full frame design is towing. It will be interesting to see if the 1500 EV's require a flatbed to haul them back to the dealer if a problem disables it. I believe the lightning's design isn't tow friendly and I'm not sure about GM's. While eliminating a seperate box for the bed is stylish (Silverado and RAM EV concepts) it implies cost savings which I believe is made up through other structural members.

The concern on resale and longevity is what is making me consider leasing. I've always purchased vehicles in the past and drove them till they were pretty well used then gave them to charity orgs to support them. I'd hate to consider EV's have less than a ten year lifespan before going to a reclamation center for disposal as hazarous waste. It will be interesting to see how battery reclamation strategies develop over the next 20 years, but this may be at the expense of early adopters.

One last thought on Lithium batteries. Why isn't there an uproar against all of the cell phones and consumer electronics which are disposed of each year? Most people I know replace their phone every three years or so (more often if the drop it). With the millions of cell phones being released into the wild each year, this should be killing the planet with mining requirements to support the consumer products industry. We don't see protests about reclamation of waste materials from the consumer markets. Maybe lithium recycling isn't as big of a deal as everyone makes it to be. After all, don't Home-Depot and Best Buy have drop boxes for old batteries?

I wonder if someone replaces a RAM battery pack maybe they should drop it off at Home Depot since they seem to have a handle on this (just kidding).

 

[HSKR R/T]

Something I noticed, and haven't really thought this through, about EV's in general versus other electrical stuff on the market.

It seems that most things that achieve good market acceptance have easily replaceable batteries, either disposable open standard batteries or in the case of power tools, proprietary batteries that are easy to swap.

Or in the case of cell phones and tablets, the whole thing is disposed, although you can theoretically replace batteries, but no one does because a newer and better device is available by that time.

The battery design of EV's seems to resemble the latter case more than the former. Does that mean makers consider them to be disposable, and don't really expect to be replacing batteries much? And if it comes down to it, will they even be willing or able to replace batteries? Sure they are giving theoretical prices, but do you know anyone who's actually had it done? And considering that it's a dirty little not-too secret that old batteries are dangerous to handle, I can see how they may really just not want to do it. They could even just refuse if it's out of warranty.

So, food for thought - given that KiloWatt-Hour and condition requirements are so similar, why aren't they standardizing? Or at least why aren't they making them easy to replace?

And what if, when your old EV is worn out, no one will take it off your hands?

The battery packs are replaceable, the amount of work required would depend on the vehicle. And with lithium batteries being recyclable, I can't imagine any shop would turn down the work

 

[Rick3478]

The other serviceability issue which RAM seems to have addressed with a full frame design is towing.

Good point, and the marketing folks don't address this much. What happens when one of these dies? If you're not fortunate enough to be able to pull over on the shoulder, does everyone just have to drive around it until a flatbed with a winch comes to collect it? Or can you at least push it a few feet out of the way? Would it have killed them to put on quick disconnect hubs like four wheel drives used to be? Or a manual throwout on the gearbox? How is it even okay for them to not be towable?

One last thought on Lithium batteries. Why isn't there an uproar against all of the cell phones and consumer electronics which are disposed of each year?

Yeah, it's not quite a secret that a lot of these just get tossed in the trash, even though they're not supposed to be. And there have been some rather significant recycling center fires that may or may not have been caused by batteries combusting spontaneously or getting crushed. As long as it happens "somewhere else", it doesn't get much press. That could change.

With the millions of cell phones being released into the wild each year, this should be killing the planet with mining requirements to support the consumer products industry. We don't see protests about reclamation of waste materials from the consumer markets. Maybe lithium recycling isn't as big of a deal as everyone makes it to be.

There's actually a lot of lithium readily available, dissolved in sea water. All you have to do is flood a shallow pool and let the water evaporate, then collect and separate the salts. As long as it's cheaper to dig out of the ground with slave labor, that probably won't happen on a large scale.

Long term, I suppose market and behaviors will change when they have to, and we're not there yet.

 

[Darksteel165]

The battery packs are replaceable, the amount of work required would depend on the vehicle. And with lithium batteries being recyclable, I can't imagine any shop would turn down the work

Almost all shops around here will not work on high voltage vehicles. They said it's a liability concern.
Also replacing cells in an EV pack is different then doing a brake job, different skill set.

The concern on resale and longevity is what is making me consider leasing. I've always purchased vehicles in the past and drove them till they were pretty well used then gave them to charity orgs to support them. I'd hate to consider EV's have less than a ten year lifespan before going to a reclamation center for disposal as hazarous waste. It will be interesting to see how battery reclamation strategies develop over the next 20 years, but this may be at the expense of early adopters.

One last thought on Lithium batteries. Why isn't there an uproar against all of the cell phones and consumer electronics which are disposed of each year? Most people I know replace their phone every three years or so (more often if the drop it). With the millions of cell phones being released into the wild each year, this should be killing the planet with mining requirements to support the consumer products industry. We don't see protests about reclamation of waste materials from the consumer markets. Maybe lithium recycling isn't as big of a deal as everyone makes it to be. After all, don't Home-Depot and Best Buy have drop boxes for old batteries?

I wonder if someone replaces a RAM battery pack maybe they should drop it off at Home Depot since they seem to have a handle on this (just kidding).

That's a lot to unpack.

Do you not realize how big an EV battery is compared to a cell phone?
A single EV has more battery in it then every single piece of tech I have owned in my entire life by a long shot.

Also not every cellphone uses a lithium battery.
And lots of old phones are already recycled but instead of getting throws away are taken apart for working parts battery included. Parts like TouchPad, fingerprint scanners, usb ports, cables, etc are ripped out of old recycled phones and sold/installed into phones that are damaged.

There is no reason to junk a phone because you cracked the screen, you can just get it repaired as long as there are parts available which for most phones there are not. Now image that on a larger scale as you were just posting about...
Recycling phones is a big deal, dont you remember the Samsung Note law suit catching fire in people's pockets and just sitting around because of the battery?