Hemi beating Ecoboost???

[PowerJrod]

This thread has moved on so fast I'm not going to bother trying to respond individually. However, my points are:

1. the hemi is not "behind" the 2.7. In terms of WOT, yes Ram tends to be slower, in terms of linear response, sound, drivability, durability, no.
2. make sure to compare apples to apples. Ram trucks are much heavier than Ford's, due to Ford's use of aluminim everywhere. This means the Hemi has to pull more weight in their trucks, making Ford's slight advantage in power seem stronger than it is. Course, no getting around the fact that Ford's torque comes on much sooner in RPMs, not denying it, just don't forget about the weight imbalance. If you want to look at where Ram is behind Ford, it would be in making their trucks lighter.
3. FCA is not behind Ford in terms of gas tech. They have chosen not to offer a turbo in their truck at this time, but they "know how". They build the biggest forced induction V8's around at the moment. They also offer turbos on their tiny cars and suvs. They HAVE the tech and expertise, they choose not to use it. Doesn't mean Ram is behind. Being "behind" would mean, not being able to build it.
4. FCA is not behind Ford in electric; Ford isn't doing all that work in house, they are partnering with Rivian etc. Ram also came out of nowhere with the etorque system, expect further development on this idea.

Anyway, guess that's just my 2 cents.

The way I see it is your 2 cents is worth dollars lol. Very applicable and I agree 100%. But at the end of the day I'll put my Ram Hemi Etorque against a 2.7 Ecoboost any day of the week....which I've already done and shown them up on more than one occasion. Any argument only holds weight in a practical demonstration so bring your 2.7 Eco to Vegas and we'll test the capabilities

 

[silver billet]

Mostly agree with your except for tech. Of course Ford and GM are working with outside companies, it's the smart thing to do. Doesn't change the fact FCA has not done that. Hence the merger with PSA, in hopes of getting that tasty small engine / electric tech for the future.

Right now, as it sits, FCA is most definitely behind GM and Ford in terms of engine gas tech and electrics. The e-Torque is nothing and all the gas tech you mentioned is big engine hp that won't help them with their CAFE numbers, in fact is hindering them with penalties and paying Tesla off with credits.

Not saying FCA doesn't have the engineering know how to match GM and Ford, it's just that they are behind development right now.

So you mostly/definitely don't agree then, since I'm saying they're NOT behind in gas/electric tech. They are behind Tesla in electric, but not behind anything from Ford/GM that you can actually buy. A generator on board the new F150 is a nice party trick, but is basically a bigger battery and inverter.

The merger is not about small engine tech. They have that already. FCA has tiny 4 bangers. They have tiny 4 bangers with turbos. They have a world class v6 (pentastar) in different sizes which wins many awards. It's turbo charged variant is in the wings. They have v8's that dominate other v8's, and v8's that match other manufacturer v8's. They have electric projects in the works (etorque will be developed further), and electric minivan for a number of years.

As to the CAFE standards. Of course they pay more. Look at all the juicy v8's they offer. No other manufacturer does that. CAFE cost is just a byproduct of the amount of choice, not a byproduct of building crummy v8's that are behind in tech. Heck, as of 2019 Ford's v8 didn't even offer cylinder deactivation which has been part of the Hemi for what, 10 years?

 

[SD Rebel]

The way I see it is your 2 cents is worth dollars lol. Very applicable and I agree 100%. But at the end of the day I'll put my Ram Hemi Etorque against a 2.7 Ecoboost any day of the week....which I've already done and shown them up on more than one occasion. Any argument only holds weight in a practical demonstration so bring your 2.7 Eco to Vegas and we'll test the capabilities

So you mostly/definitely don't agree then, since I'm saying they're NOT behind in gas/electric tech. They are behind Tesla in electric, but not behind anything from Ford/GM that you can actually buy. A generator on board the new F150 is a nice party trick, but is basically a bigger battery and inverter.

The merger is not about small engine tech. They have that already. FCA has tiny 4 bangers. They have tiny 4 bangers with turbos. They have a world class v6 (pentastar) in different sizes which wins many awards. It's turbo charged variant is in the wings. They have v8's that dominate other v8's, and v8's that match other manufacturer v8's. They have electric projects in the works (etorque will be developed further), and electric minivan for a number of years.

As to the CAFE standards. Of course they pay more. Look at all the juicy v8's they offer. No other manufacturer does that. CAFE cost is just a byproduct of the amount of choice, not a byproduct of building crummy v8's that are behind in tech. Heck, as of 2019 Ford's v8 didn't even offer cylinder deactivation which has been part of the Hemi for what, 10 years?

It's definitely about small engines and electric tech. Where are all those small turbo motors? Unless you mean FIAT cars which is nearly going out of business in North America?

Dodge has what, a minivan and the Challengersaurus/Chargersaurus. Chrysler has a minivan and the 300. RAM? Nope! So far no small turbo engines in their main brand lines (other than nearly non-existent sales of FIAT cars).

That leaves Jeep, which only has the 2.0L I4 turbo & that FIAT 1.6 in the Renegade. Not exactly brimming with variety or tech to be honest. The Pentastar only makes 305hp / 269 lbs-ft of torque in the RAM, which is slightly better than the most basic work truck base V6 offered by the competition, with only 10% take rate! Again, not enthusiastic about it and certainly not enough volume.

As for Ford, they don't like cylinder deactivation (neither do a lot of RAM owners from what I've seen so far). Hasn't hurt their mpg on the 5.0 compared to the 5.7L has it? You named the F150 hybrid, they will have a full electric within the year. GM has an electric Hummer, which will pass that tech down.

RAM has what? E-Torque? The mildest barely passable hybrid you can imagine.

 

[silver billet]

It's definitely about small engines and electric tech. Where are all those small turbo motors? Unless you mean FIAT cars which is nearly going out of business in North America?

Dodge has what, a minivan and the Challengersaurus/Chargersaurus. Chrysler has a minivan and the 300. RAM? Nope! So far no small turbo engines in their main brand lines (other than nearly non-existent sales of FIAT cars).

That leaves Jeep, which only has the 2.0L I4 turbo & that FIAT 1.6 in the Renegade. Not exactly brimming with variety or tech to be honest. The Pentastar only makes 305hp / 269 lbs-ft of torque in the RAM, which is slightly better than the most basic work truck base V6 offered by the competition, with only 10% take rate! Again, not enthusiastic about it and certainly not enough volume.

As for Ford, they don't like cylinder deactivation (neither do a lot of RAM owners from what I've seen so far). Hasn't hurt their mpg on the 5.0 compared to the 5.7L has it? You named the F150 hybrid, they will have a full electric within the year. GM has an electric Hummer, which will pass that tech down.

RAM has what? E-Torque, ok.

The merger was about gaining market share (becoming 4th largest) and taking advantage of scale. You just discarded all FCA's small engines and then said "yup, no small engines". That's priceless.

Your other arguments are equally bizarre. Take rate is small, therefore engine is "behind in tech". That's a wild jump.

Ford doesn't offer cylinder deactivation because a tiny minority of Ram owners prefer to disable it? OK then!

Ford doesn't even offer cars anymore, don't go laughing at FCA who at least still has a product line.

My truck literally decimates my brothers 2014(?) F150/5.0 in mpg. We're talking at least 15 to 20% worse in normal driving, and probably close to 30% when we hit the freeway. He is down 2 gears, so there is that, but I'm also a little heavier. And I drive with MDS disabled. I'd say that's a pretty nice showing for the Hemi. Course anecode is not data, but the 5.0 is no fuel efficient princess.

Ford's electric truck was bought, not developed by them. Ok, half point. You lose a half because it's just as easy for Ram to do that tomorrow, if they don't already have their eye on this. "Behind in technology" is a very large stretch, and definitely does not apply to their gas engines. GM has done far better in this regard, they really do their own electric and do it best next to Tesla.

I'm not trying to bash Ford. But the claim that Ram/FCA is behind (especially the gas engines) is just nuts. They are very competitive.

 

[PowerJrod]

It's definitely about small engines and electric tech. Where are all those small turbo motors? Unless you mean FIAT cars which is nearly going out of business in North America?

Dodge has what, a minivan and the Challengersaurus/Chargersaurus. Chrysler has a minivan and the 300. RAM? Nope! So far no small turbo engines in their main brand lines (other than nearly non-existent sales of FIAT cars).

That leaves Jeep, which only has the 2.0L I4 turbo & that FIAT 1.6 in the Renegade. Not exactly brimming with variety or tech to be honest. The Pentastar only makes 305hp / 269 lbs-ft of torque in the RAM, which is slightly better than the most basic work truck base V6 offered by the competition, with only 10% take rate! Again, not enthusiastic about it and certainly not enough volume.

As for Ford, they don't like cylinder deactivation (neither do a lot of RAM owners from what I've seen so far). Hasn't hurt their mpg on the 5.0 compared to the 5.7L has it? You named the F150 hybrid, they will have a full electric within the year. GM has an electric Hummer, which will pass that tech down.

RAM has what? E-Torque? The mildest barely passable hybrid you can imagine.

Rams Etorque is just a precursor to what's In the making. Why else would they have articles about full electric Rams and full hybrid Hemi's. I just finished reading an article on Reliable Plants website that was written a couple years ago that was explaining FCAs plans to bring the full hybrid technology to their trucks. It's called "Chrysler advanced propoltion technology". Being just a little late in the game doesn't mean anything.

 

[JF19Longhorn]

Better late than left behind

 

[PowerJrod]

It's definitely about small engines and electric tech. Where are all those small turbo motors? Unless you mean FIAT cars which is nearly going out of business in North America?

Dodge has what, a minivan and the Challengersaurus/Chargersaurus. Chrysler has a minivan and the 300. RAM? Nope! So far no small turbo engines in their main brand lines (other than nearly non-existent sales of FIAT cars).

That leaves Jeep, which only has the 2.0L I4 turbo & that FIAT 1.6 in the Renegade. Not exactly brimming with variety or tech to be honest. The Pentastar only makes 305hp / 269 lbs-ft of torque in the RAM, which is slightly better than the most basic work truck base V6 offered by the competition, with only 10% take rate! Again, not enthusiastic about it and certainly not enough volume.

As for Ford, they don't like cylinder deactivation (neither do a lot of RAM owners from what I've seen so far). Hasn't hurt their mpg on the 5.0 compared to the 5.7L has it? You named the F150 hybrid, they will have a full electric within the year. GM has an electric Hummer, which will pass that tech down.

RAM has what? E-Torque? The mildest barely passable hybrid you can imagine.

To response to your earlier comment though...any vehicle in the FCA lineup such as Challenger/Charger/300 that has a turbo would be a joke. Their stance is for American muscle. Not "sort of American". The only thing that should be turboed are Diesel's and Japanese cars as far as I'm concerned...maybe Volkswagens too lol.

 

[PowerJrod]

Better late than left behind

Exactly, and here's the smarts behind it...by waiting, they've been able to see how those costs and return on investments actually work in reality with no risk by watching the other brands.

 

[SD Rebel]

To response to your earlier comment though...any vehicle in the FCA lineup such as Challenger/Charger/300 that has a turbo would be a joke. Their stance is for American muscle. Not "sort of American". The only thing that should be turboed are Diesel's and Japanese cars as far as I'm concerned...maybe Volkswagens too lol.

No, of course, I was pointing out that Dodge don't have any cars with those motors. I didn't say they should shove them in Chargers, just that there are only 2 Dodge cars and a minivan. That was my point there.

 

[SD Rebel]

Exactly, and here's the smarts behind it...by waiting, they've been able to see how those costs and return on investments actually work in reality with no risk by watching the other brands.

Kinda proving my point, they are currently behind the curve.

 

[SD Rebel]

Rams Etorque is just a precursor to what's In the making. Why else would they have articles about full electric Rams and full hybrid Hemi's. I just finished reading an article on Reliable Plants website that was written a couple years ago that was explaining FCAs plans to bring the full hybrid technology to their trucks. It's called "Chrysler advanced propoltion technology". Being just a little late in the game doesn't mean anything.

Yes, I read that same article. They are several years behind, whatever negative or positive you see in it, that was my only point.

 

[PowerJrod]

No, of course, I was pointing out that Dodge don't have any cars with those motors. I didn't say they should shove them in Chargers, just that there are only 2 Dodge cars and a minivan. That was my point there.

Oh ok. I do remember when Dodge made the Dart Aero....I thought that was a nice little car, it would make sense to have a short line up like that and maybe one that's a little bigger...but it must be profitable since Ford started following suit lol.

 

[SD Rebel]

The merger was about gaining market share (becoming 4th largest) and taking advantage of scale. You just discarded all FCA's small engines and then said "yup, no small engines". That's priceless.

Your other arguments are equally bizarre. Take rate is small, therefore engine is "behind in tech". That's a wild jump.

Ford doesn't offer cylinder deactivation because a tiny minority of Ram owners prefer to disable it? OK then!

Ford doesn't even offer cars anymore, don't go laughing at FCA who at least still has a product line.

My truck literally decimates my brothers 2014(?) F150/5.0 in mpg. We're talking at least 15 to 20% worse in normal driving, and probably close to 30% when we hit the freeway. He is down 2 gears, so there is that, but I'm also a little heavier. And I drive with MDS disabled. I'd say that's a pretty nice showing for the Hemi. Course anecode is not data, but the 5.0 is no fuel efficient princess.

Ford's electric truck was bought, not developed by them. Ok, half point. You lose a half because it's just as easy for Ram to do that tomorrow, if they don't already have their eye on this. "Behind in technology" is a very large stretch, and definitely does not apply to their gas engines. GM has done far better in this regard, they really do their own electric and do it best next to Tesla.

I'm not trying to bash Ford. But the claim that Ram/FCA is behind (especially the gas engines) is just nuts. They are very competitive.

That's part of any merger, but they need the small engine tech and carbon credits for their North American operations. Are we suddenly talking about their small cars in Europe? This discussion was obviously about their small engines and tech in relation to their products here in North America. We are talking about RAM, GM & Ford trucks, but we want to bring up little FIATs in Europe/Asia that aren't sold here?

Low take up means no one is buying them. That is important don't you think regarding how good it actually is? When only 1 in 10 take your awarding winning engine, that means something right?

My RAM gets 13 mpg on the same rout my F150 got 18 mpg. I see tons of anecdotal data that goes the other way.

We obviously don't agree on this, we are both passionate about what we think here, but that's fine, neither of us are probably completely right or wrong.

 

[PowerJrod]

Yes, I read that same article. They are several years behind, whatever negative or positive you see in it, that was my only point.

Behind who? Where's GMs or Ford's full hybrid V8 pickups? I haven't seen them or been able to test drive one...have you?

 

[SD Rebel]

Behind who? Where's GMs or Ford's full hybrid V8 pickups? I haven't seen them or been able to test drive one...have you?

I'm sorry, has some 1500 hybrid been announced yet by FCA?

Because GM has announced theirs and so has Ford. Ford's will be a 2021 F150 3.5L Powerboost Hybrid coming out in late 2020. It has already confirmed the highest mpg of any gas truck by the EPA 24 city / 24 highway.

GMC will be a 2022 Hummer EV slated for the fall of 2021. There was a whole big show about it a couple of week ago if you remember.

That's two trucks that are slated for production, prototypes shown to the public, with Ford's already EPA tested and going on sale next month.

But you got a link to the hybrid 1500 RAM?

 

[silver billet]

That's part of any merger, but they need the small engine tech and carbon credits for their North American operations. Are we suddenly talking about their small cars in Europe? This discussion was obviously about their small engines and tech in relation to their products here in North America. We are talking about RAM, GM & Ford trucks, but we want to bring up little FIATs in Europe/Asia that aren't sold here?

Low take up means no one is buying them. That is important don't you think regarding how good it actually is? When only 1 in 10 take your awarding winning engine, that means something right?

My RAM gets 13 mpg on the same rout my F150 got 18 mpg. I see tons of anecdotal data that goes the other way.

We obviously don't agree on this, we are both passionate about what we think here, but that's fine, neither of us are probably completely right or wrong.

You're making the conclusion that because a car/vehicle doesn't sell well, that the engine is therefore "behind in technology" or "no good"? You're right that we won't agree on this.

 

[SD Rebel]

You're making the conclusion that because a car/vehicle doesn't sell well, that the engine is therefore "behind in technology" or "no good"? You're right that we won't agree on this.

No, I did not say the technology wasn't good. What I said is it isn't good when that technology is applied to a product that people don't want.

When only 1 out of 10 people want it, even though it's the cheaper and more efficient choice, something is wrong. Either with the application of the product/technology or the marketing of the product.

 

[PowerJrod]

I'm sorry, has some 1500 hybrid been announced yet by FCA?

Because GM has announced theirs and so has Ford. Ford's will be a 2021 F150 3.5L Powerboost Hybrid coming out in late 2020. It has already confirmed the highest mpg of any gas truck by the EPA 24 city / 24 highway.

GMC will be a 2022 Hummer EV slated for the fall of 2021. There was a whole big show about it a couple of week ago if you remember.

That's two trucks that are slated for production, prototypes shown to the public, with Ford's already EPA tested and going on sale next month.

But you got a link to the hybrid 1500 RAM?

Yes and no....remember...when Ram was coming out with Etorque, they didn't really market it and then it just seemed to show up out of nowhere. Here's a sort of indirect confirmation though...

Will FCA’s electrified Ram pickup be a plug-in hybrid or fully electric?

FCA is working on an electrified Ram truck. Would a plug-in hybrid be better than fully electric for the greening of the truck fleet?

www.greencarreports.com

 

[silver billet]

No, I did not say the technology wasn't good. What I said is it isn't good when that technology is applied to a product that people don't want.

When only 1 out of 10 people want it, even though it's the cheaper and more efficient choice, something is wrong. Either with the application of the product/technology or the marketing of the product.

Correlation != Causation. You're arguing that a car's engine must be no good because the car doesn't sell. There could be a million reasons why a car doesn't sell well, none of them being the engine.

 

[SD Rebel]

Yes and no....remember...when Ram was coming out with Etorque, they didn't really market it and then it just seemed to show up out of nowhere. Here's a sort of indirect confirmation though...

Will FCA’s electrified Ram pickup be a plug-in hybrid or fully electric?

FCA is working on an electrified Ram truck. Would a plug-in hybrid be better than fully electric for the greening of the truck fleet?

www.greencarreports.com

E-Torque isn't in the same class (or galaxy) as a hybrid and full EV. It's a take-off assist that officially adds what, 1-2 mpg to a city range? Either way, there is nothing in an a full hybrid or electric on the horizon, again proving my point.

FCA CEO Manley confirmed they will join in earnest on EV truck production. No details of course, it could be several years down the road and certainly not in the same timeframe and GM, Ford, Rivian and Lordstown Motors who will clearly get there first.