Hemi beating Ecoboost???

[PowerJrod]

They don't stop boosting when you are on full throttle. Maybe you can post that article so I can get what you are trying to say here. Maybe your VW had a wastegate issue? Also, Ecoboost turbos are liquid cooled.

I was talking about how the turbos start to spool up...I think you and I were talking about two different things for a minute there lol.

 

[PowerJrod]

You guys realize there are turbodiesels that run under load for literal days, right?

Modern turbos are fed constant lubrication and even coolant from the engine - they don't care about constant heat exposure any more than your exhaust valves.

Quit making up BS just because it sounds good in your head

Making up BS? Lol. W/E man. I like how you have nothing to contribute here and yet you make a comment about diesels which is not even what we're talking about. Diesel turbos are not even set up the same as gas turbos. (obviously).

 

[Buz]

I think what he meant was the torque curve runs out faster on a turbo, so it feels like the turbos gave up.
The hemi has a more gradual buildup to torque all the way up making it feel totally different 'seat of the pants'.

 

[HeliPilot]

^^^this is very true. My Raptor had tons of get up and go through 75/80, then felt meh...but would still outrun my Ram from there to max speed. To me, nothing beats the smooth linear acceleration of a v8. As fast as the Raptor was, I hated the drivetrain characteristics of the boosted 6.

 

[Drewster]

Making up BS? Lol. W/E man. I like how you have nothing to contribute here and yet you make a comment about diesels which is not even what we're talking about. Diesel turbos are not even set up the same as gas turbos. (obviously).

Obviously? Which one of these is a diesel turbo, and which one is a gas turbo?


I've raced turbo cars on race tracks, tuned them on dynos, and worked with ECUs that manage them. Diesels have a different EGT range, benefit from turbocharging differently, and they'll run waaay different A/R ratios because the volumes are way different... but the turbo itself doesn't change much.

You seem to assume a turbo has to "stop spooling" after some random amount of time - this is not the case. The turbo is *always* spinning because it's always attached to the manifold. Where they make torque varies depending on the turbo's efficiency map and the engine's own VE. Ecoboost engines make torque down low, absolutely, but that has nothing to do with the turbo somehow not spooling at RPM. At 5500 RPM, they're still making enough power to match your Hemi - with a tune they're cranking out almost 100HP more (stock Hemis do ~350 wheel)

I wasn't kidding when I said that the turbos aren't limited any more than your exhaust valves. Because modern turbos are constantly lubricated and cooled, the EGT levels that are dangerous to the turbo are equally dangerous to your exhaust valves. Modern ECU's are constantly monitoring models for inlet temp, EGT, charge temp, exhaust flange temperature, you name it. If you're pulling hard up a grade for a *long* time, they might add fuel, pull timing, and do all sorts of stuff... but they don't just stop spooling. An ecoboost with a *big* turbo kit will behave the exact opposite of stock. The bigger a turbo you put on, the more your torque curve looks like this


Again... do some searches before you just type stuff.

I love my hemi - especially in terms of constantly improved reliability - but beating a 2.7 in a drag race doesn't mean squat. A 3.5 with a tune, bolted to a *much* lighter truck will spank your hemi any day of the week.. sorry.

 

[JF19Longhorn]

I have no doubt that it could top out at 150, what I was saying is that the 2.7 and 3.5 will take longer to get to top speed than the Ram after the turbos stop spooling. The turbos can't continuously boost all the way to 150mph lol.

..pretty sure that's not how turbo's work.. they literally are always boosting under load.. it's just what the waste gate is allowing the engine to ingest.

 

[PowerJrod]

Obviously? Which one of these is a diesel turbo, and which one is a gas turbo?
View attachment 74252View attachment 74253

I've raced turbo cars on race tracks, tuned them on dynos, and worked with ECUs that manage them. Diesels have a different EGT range, benefit from turbocharging differently, and they'll run waaay different A/R ratios because the volumes are way different... but the turbo itself doesn't change much.

You seem to assume a turbo has to "stop spooling" after some random amount of time - this is not the case. The turbo is *always* spinning because it's always attached to the manifold. Where they make torque varies depending on the turbo's efficiency map and the engine's own VE. Ecoboost engines make torque down low, absolutely, but that has nothing to do with the turbo somehow not spooling at RPM. At 5500 RPM, they're still making enough power to match your Hemi - with a tune they're cranking out almost 100HP more (stock Hemis do ~350 wheel)
View attachment 74254
I wasn't kidding when I said that the turbos aren't limited any more than your exhaust valves. Because modern turbos are constantly lubricated and cooled, the EGT levels that are dangerous to the turbo are equally dangerous to your exhaust valves. Modern ECU's are constantly monitoring models for inlet temp, EGT, charge temp, exhaust flange temperature, you name it. If you're pulling hard up a grade for a *long* time, they might add fuel, pull timing, and do all sorts of stuff... but they don't just stop spooling. An ecoboost with a *big* turbo kit will behave the exact opposite of stock. The bigger a turbo you put on, the more your torque curve looks like this
View attachment 74266

Again... do some searches before you just type stuff.

I love my hemi - especially in terms of constantly improved reliability - but beating a 2.7 in a drag race doesn't mean squat. A 3.5 with a tune, bolted to a *much* lighter truck will spank your hemi any day of the week.. sorry.

I see all that you wrote ...and I read NONE of it ...except for the last paragraph....this thread isn't about the 3.5. try again.

 

[PowerJrod]

^^^this is very true. My Raptor had tons of get up and go through 75/80, then felt meh...but would still outrun my Ram from there to max speed. To me, nothing beats the smooth linear acceleration of a v8. As fast as the Raptor was, I hated the drivetrain characteristics of the boosted 6.

Exactly! That was my original argument...but I won't disagree there, the 3.5 on the Raptor is badA**! Lol.

 

[PowerJrod]

I think what he meant was the torque curve runs out faster on a turbo, so it feels like the turbos gave up.
The hemi has a more gradual buildup to torque all the way up making it feel totally different 'seat of the pants'.

Exactly! That and the initial spooling up that causes the turbo lag is all I was talking about.
Now we have this kid posting pictures of turbos lmao! As if we didn't know what a turbo looks like...smh.

 

[silver billet]

I love my hemi - especially in terms of constantly improved reliability - but beating a 2.7 in a drag race doesn't mean squat. A 3.5 with a tune, bolted to a *much* lighter truck will spank your hemi any day of the week.. sorry.

Lots of good stuff there, but to be fair...... we're comparing 2.7 stock to hemi stock, not 3.5 with a tune vs hemi stock.

 

[Drewster]

Exactly! That and the initial spooling up that causes the turbo lag is all I was talking about.
Now we have this kid posting pictures of turbos lmao! As if we didn't know what a turbo looks like...smh.

And I see you continue to post meaningless dribble you didn't even bother to research beforehand

You're the one telling me there's a huge difference in Diesel vs Gas turbos... and yet you obviously can't tell which one is which.

 

[Drewster]

Lots of good stuff there, but to be fair...... we're comparing 2.7 stock to hemi stock, not 3.5 with a tune vs hemi stock.

Yeah, that was the original post, but somewhere along the line 'ol Jrod made the leap to all ecoboosts and started just making things up about "spooling" and "lag" lol

 

[HeliPilot]

Lots of good stuff there, but to be fair...... we're comparing 2.7 stock to hemi stock, not 3.5 with a tune vs hemi stock.

I wasn’t comparing 3.5 tuned to a stock Hemi. My Ram is tuned but still won’t outpace what my Raptor was capable of. This Ram, however, is probably the nicest truck I’ve ever owned. Won’t be trading it off anytime soon...and it currently has 37,000 trouble free miles. Got rid of the eco Raptor at 32000

 

[PowerJrod]

And I see you continue to post meaningless dribble you didn't even bother to research beforehand

You're the one telling me there's a huge difference in Diesel vs Gas turbos... and yet you obviously can't tell which one is which.

Nope...said they're set up differently. Thanks.

 

[PowerJrod]

Yeah, that was the original post, but somewhere along the line 'ol Jrod made the leap to all ecoboosts and started just making things up about "spooling" and "lag" lol

Really? So you're saying there's no such thing as turbo lag or turbos spooling up before boost??? Shows what you know. I bet you never driven a turbo charged vehicle.

 

[iLikeTurtles]

I do not believe any of the 2.7tt or 3.5tt are boost by gear dependent, therefore the boost is same volume under rpm and not gear dependent correct?

Its like my 17 Golf R. Was a rocket up to 80/90 but rate of acceleration (known as the jerk/jolt (look up the rate of accel and rate of a jerk and it gets interesting fast - pun intended)) decreased rapidly. Still faster than a model 3 performancd with the few mods i did though!

Moral of the story: as much as i love the v8 rumble and torque, i would rather have more applicable performance. But the new 2021 f150s with the 12" screen and sunroof were just too expensive.

 

[PowerJrod]

I do not believe any of the 2.7tt or 3.5tt are boost by gear dependent, therefore the boost is same volume under rpm and not gear dependent correct?

Its like my 17 Golf R. Was a rocket up to 80/90 but rate of acceleration (known as the jerk/jolt (look up the rate of accel and rate of a jerk and it gets interesting fast - pun intended)) decreased rapidly. Still faster than a model 3 performancd with the few mods i did though!

Moral of the story: as much as i love the v8 rumble and torque, i would rather have more applicable performance. But the new 2021 f150s with the 12" screen and sunroof were just too expensive.

Correct, it's all about exhaust gases which usually happen at a certain RPM range. But what you described being the acceleration dropping off after a certain speed...that's the turbo no longer boosting as it's reached its threshold. "Boost Threshold" I believe it's called.

 

[Blueraptor]

I have owned both a 2015 f150 with the 2.7l eb and now my 2019 Ram 1500 with the 5.7 and I find it interesting that we are discussing whether or not the largest most powerful engine (not counting TRX) available in the Ram 1500 can beat the smallest available engine available on the f150 in a drag race. In my own experience, it didn't. This tells me that Ram has some work to do if it wants to catch up to Ford on engine technology. The rest of the truck is a totally different story though, which is why I own a Ram currently and not a Ford.

 

[silver billet]

I have owned both a 2015 f150 with the 2.7l eb and now my 2019 Ram 1500 with the 5.7 and I find it interesting that we are discussing whether or not the largest most powerful engine (not counting TRX) available in the Ram 1500 can beat the smallest least powerful engine available on the f150 in a drag race. In my own experience, it didn't. This tells me that Ram has some work to do if it wants to catch up to Ford on engine technology. The rest of the truck is a totally different story though, which is why I own a Ram currently and not a Ford.

The smallest engine in the F150 is a naturally aspirated v6. Hemi will eat its lunch.
The largest engine in the Ram is a supercharged 6.2 L hellcat in the TRX. It will eat the raptor's lunch.

The hemi could use a power boost, no doubt, if you worry about that kind of thing. It would not surprise me if Ram offers a more powerful engine to non-trx models, but saying they have to catch up on Ford's engine technology is a pretty funny thing to say. FCA is literally the king of big American muscle at this point. No other manufacturer has so many tire shredding V8's available across their entire lineup.

 

[SD Rebel]

The smallest engine in the F150 is a naturally aspirated v6. Hemi will eat its lunch.
The largest engine in the Ram is a supercharged 6.2 L hellcat in the TRX. It will eat the raptor's lunch.

The hemi could use a power boost, no doubt, if you worry about that kind of thing. It would not surprise me if Ram offers a more powerful engine to non-trx models, but saying they have to catch up on Ford's engine technology is a pretty funny thing to say. FCA is literally the king of big American muscle at this point. No other manufacturer has so many tire shredding V8's available across their entire lineup.

In a way. It's a slight of hand by FCA. the HC motors are great, but they are in high priced lower production vehicles that most people cannot afford. They are used to drive showroom, and keep what are relatively very old platforms in the Challenger/Charger, Grand Cherokee and Durango in competitive sales. It has worked like a charm, at least for the Challenger & Charger.

The real issue is that while the tire shredding V8s are great, it has also caused FCA to buy more carbon credits from Tesla than any other automaker, and this part isn't going to get easier. FCA needs to move forward with it's engine technology, which is a big reason for it's merger with PSA. They need to improve their CAFE mix, even with Tesla credits they still paid $80 million in penalties last year.

Now I'm a Ford guy at heart, but I currently drive a RAM Rebel Hemi if that tells you something. So don't get me wrong, I love V8s and the sounds they make. The 5.7L is a sweet spot between GMs 5.3 & 6.2 and Fords 2.7L & 3.5L. The F150 2.7L is faster accelerating than the RAM 5.7L only because it's low end torque power delivery and lighter weight. In terms of towing capabilities, it's superior to the 2.7L. The Hemi is in the "goldilocks zone" in terms of power & price, but wont be forever and FCA cannot simply throw a HC in the 1500 class in the future with CAFE restrictions looming.