Hemi beating Ecoboost???

[SD Rebel]

Correlation != Causation. You're arguing that a car's engine must be no good because the car doesn't sell. There could be a million reasons why a car doesn't sell well, none of them being the engine.

Did you actual read what I said? I didn't say the engine was bad or the technology.

I said that technology is applied to a product that people don't want (in the RAM). Either with the application of the product/technology or the marketing of the product. I was quite clear if you read my post again.

 

[PowerJrod]

E-Torque isn't in the same class (or galaxy) as a hybrid and full EV. It's a take-off assist that officially adds what, 1-2 mpg to a city range? Either way, there is nothing in an a full hybrid or electric on the horizon, again proving my point.

FCA CEO Manley confirmed they will join in earnest on EV truck production. No details of course, it could be several years down the road and certainly not in the same timeframe and GM, Ford, Rivian and Lordstown Motors who will clearly get there first.

You're missing the point. Did you not read my earlier post? And who says they won't come out with something by then? We have no idea for sure how the inner workings of FCA are. Just because a company doesn't reveal something when you want them to doesn't mean anything. You may be absolutely correct on that but just read my earlier post and I'll wait for the lightbulb to go off. I wasn't comparing Etorque with EV...I was pointing out that they didn't reveal the Etorque until it was already available to purchase.

 

[SD Rebel]

You're missing the point. Did you not read my earlier post? And who says they won't come out with something by then? We have no idea for sure how the inner workings of FCA are. Just because a company doesn't reveal something when you want them to doesn't mean anything. You may be absolutely correct on that but just read my earlier post and I'll wait for the lightbulb to go off. I wasn't comparing Etorque with EV...I was pointing out that they didn't reveal the Etorque until it was already available to purchase.

The E-Torque is a small system that can be hidden, but you can't hide a EV / Hybrid, they don't appear from nowhere ready for production. Actual hybrids and EVs are spotted months before officially being announced. There is zero evidence that FCA has one anywhere near production or test mule ready.

But it's already been confirmed by their CEO they are now going to start working on an EV. But only 3 months ago they were non-committal. After the F150 release and GMC's recent Hummer EV coverage, only then did he say they are going to build one. Again, my point is they are behind everyone right now and they aren't hiding anything. Ford's hybrid and EV test mules have been around for a couple of years already and only now are coming on for sale.

 

[PowerJrod]

The E-Torque is a small system that can be hidden, but you can't hide a EV / Hybrid, they don't appear from nowhere ready for production. Actual hybrids and EVs are spotted months before officially being announced. There is zero evidence that FCA has one anywhere near production or test mule ready.

But it's already been confirmed by their CEO they are now going to start working on an EV. But only 3 months ago they were non-committal. After the F150 release and GMC's recent Hummer EV coverage, only then did he say they are going to build one. Again, my point is they are behind everyone right now and they aren't hiding anything. Ford's hybrid and EV test mules have been around for a couple of years already and only now are coming on for sale.

I totally agree with you but they could easily hide a Hybrid...look at all of the cars out there now that are hybrids...a lot of them look like the original gas powered versions so they could absolutely make a hybrid and just stick it into a 2019/2020 Ram without anyone knowing while they test it.

 

[SD Rebel]

I totally agree with you but they could easily hide a Hybrid...look at all of the cars out there now that are hybrids...a lot of them look like the original gas powered versions so they could absolutely make a hybrid and just stick it into a 2019/2020 Ram without anyone knowing while they test it.

That does make sense, they could hide a hybrid.

 

[silver billet]

Did you actual read what I said? I didn't say the engine was bad or the technology.

I said that technology is applied to a product that people don't want (in the RAM). Either with the application of the product/technology or the marketing of the product. I was quite clear if you read my post again.

The discussion was whether Ram was behind Ford WRT to engine tech. This came out of discussion first about Ford's Ecoboost "beating" the Hemi, and I said, Ram has the technology to build tiny little motors with turbos, award winning V6's, NA v8's, and super charged V8's. They currently have the fastest 1500 on the market, it literally decimates Ford's highest option in this space. You then mentioned something about the technology being found in products that didn't sell well, that can only mean Fiat, since Ram is selling extremely well, including etorque models.

WRT to electric; again, Ram has experience building complete electric models, and they are working on hybrid tech. No doubt some prefer no etorque, but Ram is working on it none the less. They're not behind. They also released their minivan before Ford's electric truck (which Ford had to buy).

So whatever you're trying to say, it's clear that your love of Ford (which is perfectly fine) is clouding your vision in this argument.

 

[SD Rebel]

The discussion was whether Ram was behind Ford WRT to engine tech. This came out of discussion first about Ford's Ecoboost "beating" the Hemi, and I said, Ram has the technology to build tiny little motors with turbos, award winning V6's, NA v8's, and super charged V8's. They currently have the fastest 1500 on the market, it literally decimates Ford's highest option in this space. You then mentioned something about the technology being found in products that didn't sell well, that can only mean Fiat, since Ram is selling extremely well, including etorque models.

WRT to electric; again, Ram has experience building complete electric models, and they are working on hybrid tech. No doubt some prefer no etorque, but Ram is working on it none the less. They're not behind. They also released their minivan before Ford's electric truck (which Ford had to buy).

So whatever you're trying to say, it's clear that your love of Ford (which is perfectly fine) is clouding your vision in this argument.

RAM has experience building a complete electric model? What would that be?

RAM are absolutely behind GM & Ford in hybrid & EV tech, in the most literally of senses. Unless they suddenly come up with a full hybrid or EV truck in the next month or so then I will retract that statement. Otherwise both GM, Ford, Rivian and Lordstown will beat them to market in the next 2 years.

Ford had to buy what? What minivan? You mean the Pacifica Hybrid? You realize Ford & GM have had plug-in hybrids for a while, unless you mean a different vehicle, it doesn't set any standards to the competition.

I am a Ford guy in that I have had mostly Ford trucks, but I now have a RAM Rebel, which should tell you something. We also in our household have Silverado (wife) and my daily driver is a Honda Accord EX sedan. I also have an old BMW E46 M3 for the weekends. So no, I'm not a fanboy, I'm an enthusiast who doesn't mind pointing out deficiencies in the things he loves.

If you are defensive about what are clear, such as RAM being behind hybrid/electric tech, then it's clear your biases are clouding your opinions.

 

[Drewster]

I also have an old BMW E46 M3 for the weekends. So no, I'm not a fanboy, I'm an enthusiast who doesn't mind pointing out deficiencies in the things he loves.

If you are defensive about what are clear, such as RAM being behind hybrid/electric tech, then it's clear your biases are clouding your opinions.

Word

 

[SD Rebel]

Word

Holy crap, you even track yours lol! Respect!

I'm just happy when I can do my local canyon road (100 mile round trip) without something going wrong. Mine does have 178,000 miles and lived a hard early life. Just recently replaced most of the cooling system and re-bushed the suspension. This car is the reason why I haven't spent money lifting my truck yet

 

[silver billet]

RAM has experience building a complete electric model? What would that be?

RAM are absolutely behind GM & Ford in hybrid & EV tech, in the most literally of senses. Unless they suddenly come up with a full hybrid or EV truck in the next month or so then I will retract that statement. Otherwise both GM, Ford, Rivian and Lordstown will beat them to market in the next 2 years.

Ford had to buy what? What minivan? You mean the Pacifica Hybrid? You realize Ford & GM have had plug-in hybrids for a while, unless you mean a different vehicle, it doesn't set any standards to the competition.

I am a Ford guy in that I have had mostly Ford trucks, but I now have a RAM Rebel, which should tell you something. We also in our household have Silverado (wife) and my daily driver is a Honda Accord EX sedan. I also have an old BMW E46 M3 for the weekends. So no, I'm not a fanboy, I'm an enthusiast who doesn't mind pointing out deficiencies in the things he loves.

If you are defensive about what are clear, such as RAM being behind hybrid/electric tech, then it's clear your biases are clouding your opinions.

We're not talking about "setting standards". We're talking about "is Ram behind in gas/electric tech", and the answer is most definitely, no. And beating to market is not how you look at "behind". Obviously in the literal sense yes, but in the big picture, no, an investor would take into account natural product cycles. For example, I did not consider Ford behind Ram when it came to infotainment just because of the 12 inch screen that was missing from Ford for a year or two.

Nice that you're a BMW fan. I have no brand loyalty whatsoever. My immediate family has owned multiple vehicles from Dodge, Ram, Chevy, GMC, Ford, Volkswagon, Toyota, and Kia. I call it like I see it, in the electric space Ram is playing in the same pool as Ford and GM. All 3 are in the same spot: behind Tesla. Within the pool of the big 3, no significant difference.

 

[SD Rebel]

We're not talking about "setting standards". We're talking about "is Ram behind in gas/electric tech", and the answer is most definitely, no. And beating to market is not how you look at "behind". Obviously in the literal sense yes, but in the big picture, no, an investor would take into account natural product cycles. For example, I did not consider Ford behind Ram when it came to infotainment just because of the 12 inch screen that was missing from Ford for a year or two.

Nice that you're a BMW fan. I have no brand loyalty whatsoever. My immediate family has owned multiple vehicles from Dodge, Ram, Chevy, GMC, Ford, Volkswagon, Toyota, and Kia. I call it like I see it, in the electric space Ram is playing in the same pool as Ford and GM. All 3 are in the same spot: behind Tesla. Within the pool of the big 3, no significant difference.

That's the clearest example that they are behind. When they are at the least 2-3 years behind a full hybrid or electric product, that their biggest competitors will beat them to market. Can't be anymore definite than that. I don't think investors look at a big screen in the dash vs hybrid/electric tech in the same way as proof of the engineering capabilities of your company.

I didn't say FCA can't do it, they have the resources to match everyone else in this area. But they haven't moved as fast as the others, their own CEO made it clear 3 months ago they weren't sure about doing any full hybrid or electric tech with RAM. Only recently did he say they decided to make something, and only after Ford & GMC made announcements. They are very behind right now.

You call it like you see it??? Again, their biggest competitors have products coming out, Ford next month will release for sale a hybrid F150 that is EPA 24 mpg CITY. They have an all electric coming out a year later. GMC shown their all-electric Hummer, scheduled for next year. RAM has what?

 

[Drewster]

Holy crap, you even track yours lol! Respect!

I'm just happy when I can do my local canyon road (100 mile round trip) without something going wrong. Mine does have 178,000 miles and lived a hard early life.

Yup! I got the truck to pull it to different events around the country My old Hemi did it fine, but my wife wanted something nicer since she was going up with me on the way to Autobahn near Chicago, and the new Limited definitely fits the bill. I like that it's a port-injected V8 that's been refined over multiple generations... but I'm also well aware that a 3.5 EB makes 100hp more with just a simple flash tune. I *am* sad that I can't even tune this truck without yanking the ECU.

Like you, I've had loads of different cars from different manufacturers, and I've worked on an even broader range.

I would also agree that FCA is simply behind the curve compared to Ford, Toyota, and GM. When it comes to making an electric/ hybrid vehicle that meets durability, safety, and performance targets, there's a lot that goes into it. FCA can design whatever they want, but for a massive company to make a product and execute it well, they really need to change a lot at multiple levels - from shipping and receiving, proper assembly, and maintenance training, the list goes on. Ford and GM have dabbled with electric off and on, learned a little, and retreated. FCA has only recently decided to start investing heavily - they're literally playing catch up.

Ford made an electric ranger back in 1998, but terminated it after California backed off requirements. Ford started making hybrid SUV's in the early 2000's with the Escape, but they suffered from having too many batteries and too little grunt to make a big impact. More notably, about 10 years ago Ford partnered with Toyota (undoubtedly the leader in hybrids since they've been making them in mass production since 1997) on making a hybrid powertrain for trucks and SUV's. Over time that dissolved, and many suspected Ford did it just to get a peek at Toyota's technology.

GM has a similar history of innovation and retreat, learning but then not making much progress. The infamous EV1 was way back in 1996 (if you haven't seen "who killed the electric car"), and they made the Silverado Hybrid in 2004 along with other SUV's shortly after. Like Ford, they were quite compromised on both ends (lack of power but increased weight)... but the key is that they were making hybrid vehicles and learning.

FCA, on the other hand, only has *three* vehicles on the list of Hybrid vehicles over the past few years. A 40 year old Fiat, a Fiat Panda, and the Pacifica Hybrid. They're obviously working to expand that, and they desperately need to in order to get emission levels (and fines) down.. but they're simply behind compared to Ford, GM, and Toyota in terms of History, lessons learned over time, and infrastructure development

 

[silver billet]

That's the clearest example that they are behind. When they are at the least 2-3 years behind a full hybrid or electric product, that their biggest competitors will beat them to market. Can't be anymore definite than that. I don't think investors look at a big screen in the dash vs hybrid/electric tech in the same way as proof of the engineering capabilities of your company.

I didn't say FCA can't do it, they have the resources to match everyone else in this area. But they haven't moved as fast as the others, their own CEO made it clear 3 months ago they weren't sure about doing any full hybrid or electric tech with RAM. Only recently did he say they decided to make something, and only after Ford & GMC made announcements. They are very behind right now.

You call it like you see it??? Again, their biggest competitors have products coming out, Ford next month will release for sale a hybrid F150 that is EPA 24 mpg CITY. They have an all electric coming out a year later. GMC shown their all-electric Hummer, scheduled for next year. RAM has what?

I do have some work to do too, so yeah, this is going to be my last post on the subject.

Let's take a slightly different approach. During the cold war, was USA behind USSR when it came to space race? Looking back we have 100% knowledge of what happened and was going to happen. In my opinion, neither country was behind the other. Yes USSR had many firsts, and then USA had their firsts. They were "neck and neck" the entire way. When it takes years and years to develop all this, a few months difference is not "behind". The rest of the world? They were behind.

Looking at the 5 major truck brands in general; Ram, GM, and Ford are in one pool, Toyota and Nissan are "behind" in the second pool. Because Ram/GM/Ford have product cycles where 1 truck comes out with something new and then 2 years later a different truck comes out with a different "new" and so on, they jump past eachother a little bit here and there, but they're always getting an advantage at some point over the others, until they in turn "grow old" and get leap frogged by the next guy. Toyota and Nissan are consistently behind. They are never bringing anything to the market that is ahead of the others at some point.

Is the Raptor behind the TRX? By your standards, yes, by my standards, no. We all know Ford is going to answer and has had their eye on this for some time.

Is the Bronco behind the Jeep? Jeep just dumped their 6.4 in the Rubicon.

So you see the trend over time. The 3 American brands are ahead, the 2 Asian brands are behind. Within the big 3, there is some churn when a new cycle comes out, but it's not important in the larger picture because it never lasts.

Edit: yes I realize the discussion is about engine tech, but I'm using those examples to explain how I get to my definition of "behind" or not.

 

[PowerJrod]

I do have some work to do too, so yeah, this is going to be my last post on the subject.

Let's take a slightly different approach. During the cold war, was USA behind USSR when it came to space race? Looking back we have 100% knowledge of what happened and was going to happen. In my opinion, neither country was behind the other. Yes USSR had many firsts, and then USA had their firsts. They were "neck and neck" the entire way. When it takes years and years to develop all this, a few months difference is not "behind". The rest of the world? They were behind.

Looking at the 5 major truck brands in general; Ram, GM, and Ford are in one pool, Toyota and Nissan are "behind" in the second pool. Because Ram/GM/Ford have product cycles where 1 truck comes out with something new and then 2 years later a different truck comes out with a different "new" and so on, they jump past eachother a little bit here and there, but they're always getting an advantage at some point over the others, until they in turn "grow old" and get leap frogged by the next guy. Toyota and Nissan are consistently behind. They are never bringing anything to the market that is ahead of the others at some point.

Is the Raptor behind the TRX? By your standards, yes, by my standards, no. We all know Ford is going to answer and has had their eye on this for some time.

Is the Bronco behind the Jeep? Jeep just dumped their 6.4 in the Rubicon.

So you see the trend over time. The 3 American brands are ahead, the 2 Asian brands are behind. Within the big 3, there is some churn when a new cycle comes out, but it's not important in the larger picture because it never lasts.

Edit: yes I realize the discussion is about engine tech, but I'm using those examples to explain how I get to my definition of "behind" or not.

All good points. I guess in a way...it would be like saying Toyota is behind in hybrid technology when it comes to trucks....but yet... they've been the leader in hybrid vehicles for many years...same concept as earlier when we were talking how Ram could be testing out a hybrid truck right now and we wouldn't even know it...hope that makes sense.

 

[PowerJrod]

....I still smoked a EcoBoost...

Oh...and a Tesla SUV smoked me while I was driving my boss's Porsche Cayenne S on Tuesday...a tribute to EV tech right there lol.

 

[Drewster]

I do have some work to do too, so yeah, this is going to be my last post on the subject.

Let's take a slightly different approach. During the cold war, was USA behind USSR when it came to space race? Looking back we have 100% knowledge of what happened and was going to happen. In my opinion, neither country was behind the other. Yes USSR had many firsts, and then USA had their firsts. They were "neck and neck" the entire way. When it takes years and years to develop all this, a few months difference is not "behind". The rest of the world? They were behind.

Looking at the 5 major truck brands in general; Ram, GM, and Ford are in one pool, Toyota and Nissan are "behind" in the second pool. Because Ram/GM/Ford have product cycles where 1 truck comes out with something new and then 2 years later a different truck comes out with a different "new" and so on, they jump past eachother a little bit here and there, but they're always getting an advantage at some point over the others, until they in turn "grow old" and get leap frogged by the next guy. Toyota and Nissan are consistently behind. They are never bringing anything to the market that is ahead of the others at some point.

Is the Raptor behind the TRX? By your standards, yes, by my standards, no. We all know Ford is going to answer and has had their eye on this for some time.

Is the Bronco behind the Jeep? Jeep just dumped their 6.4 in the Rubicon.

So you see the trend over time. The 3 American brands are ahead, the 2 Asian brands are behind. Within the big 3, there is some churn when a new cycle comes out, but it's not important in the larger picture because it never lasts.

Edit: yes I realize the discussion is about engine tech, but I'm using those examples to explain how I get to my definition of "behind" or not.

This whole thing is a *huge* stretch. The biggest point that makes it a false equivalency is powertrain development. It takes years of development to develop and test a gasoline engine, let alone a hybrid powertrain with multiple control modules, applications, etc. Yes, FCA spent a few years making the TRX... but they took the 5 year old engine out of the Hellcat. Yes, FCA put a 6.4 in the Rubicon... but it's the same 6.4 that has been in production for 9 years.

Ford announced its electric pickup development in ~2018.. it's coming out in 2022.

Ram announced its electric truck development in 2020... you can bet it'll be at least 2024 at the earliest - probably later since they are new to electric powertrains, and you probably won't want to buy the first model...

 

[silver billet]

This whole thing is a *huge* stretch. The biggest point that makes it a false equivalency is powertrain development. It takes years of development to develop and test a gasoline engine, let alone a hybrid powertrain with multiple control modules, applications, etc. Yes, FCA spent a few years making the TRX... but they took the 5 year old engine out of the Hellcat. Yes, FCA put a 6.4 in the Rubicon... but it's the same 6.4 that has been in production for 9 years.

Ford announced its electric pickup development in ~2018.. it's coming out in 2022.

Ram announced its electric truck development in 2020... you can bet it'll be at least 2024 at the earliest - probably later since they are new to electric powertrains, and you probably won't want to buy the first model...

So Ram has a 5 year hellcat and the Raptor has nothing that comes close to performance. It's literally decimated. Guess Raptor is 5 years behind then?

Eb and flow Drewster. Product lines need to go through a cycle. Ram's last refresh was 2018, Ford's is today, expecting them to have something "new" is very natural, and when Ram comes out with their next cycle, we'll see again.

 

[PowerJrod]

It's like a domino effect.

 

[Drewster]

So Ram has a 5 year hellcat and the Raptor has nothing that comes close to performance. It's literally decimated. Guess Raptor is 5 years behind then?

Eb and flow Drewster. Product lines need to go through a cycle. Ram's last refresh was 2018, Ford's is today, expecting them to have something "new" is very natural, and when Ram comes out with their next cycle, we'll see again.

The question was whether Ram's ELECTRIC POWERTRAIN is behind the competition... it is. You seem to be making excuses for that obvious delay using the product as a whole.....

 

[silver billet]

The question was whether Ram's ELECTRIC POWERTRAIN is behind the competition... it is. You seem to be making excuses for that obvious delay using the product as a whole.....

No. The question was originally whether Ram's gas engines were behind the competition, electric was dumped in later.
https://5thgenrams.com/community/threads/hemi-beating-ecoboost.23304/page-5#post-362099

But regardless, the entire point is we differ on how to calculate "behind". For you, your definition is as long as a competitor is 1 day ahead, then competitor 2 is "behind". I'm saying BS, it's more involved than that. Product lines take time, and have cycles, and right now we're in the start/middle of Ram's cycle whereas Ford JUST released their next cycle.

All the examples I gave (Raptor/TRX) are there to show why my argument is correct. Raptor is not behind Ram, even though Ram has, TODAY, a more competitive release, Ford's Raptor has been released years ago (whereas TRX was just released) and the next Raptor will no doubt be an improvement one way or the other.

You're simply jumping in the middle of 2 product lines with staggered released dates and saying "well gee, this one is older that one is newer therefore older is 'behind in technology'". That's very short sighted.