BigBear1612
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What length bed is that?
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2019 Ram 1500 5th wheel towing
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BigBear1612
Active Member
Anybody tried the Anderson ultimate in a 5' 7" bed?
I think I would qualify as an actual engineer, degree, license, and all, but engineering isn't an exact science. There are tolerances and design criteria. There are also laws, regulations, and liability. In most cases, it doesn't take a finite element analysis to solve this problem. Many people take their vehicles outside of the published specs. This forum is full of wheel/tire combinations and suspension modifications that do that unrelated to trailer towing. A Ram 2500 CTD has a payload similar to the 1500 because of the weight of the engine/transmission and design criteria of 10k GVWR for a 2500 pickup. Do you really think it would be challenged if it exceeded payload by 1k-2k lbs as long as it had a rear air spring capable of supporting it?
5th wheel trailers are more stable and therefore safer. The issue is the limited payload capacity of the Ram 1500 (and really all 1/2 ton pickups, it is discussed on every forum) and the pin weight of a 5th wheel (say ~20% of trailer weight).
Trooper4
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That's what I use.
Trooper4
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True. Ran a 2005 Duramax 2500 for fourteen years with bags pulling a 39' fifth wheel. Hit the scales at 22.5k, and it was rock solid on the road. Never felt iffy and was great in all conditions, including emergency lane changes and stops. Just don't need anything that big anymore, and moved down in size and weight. Easier in and out of RV parks now.
Willwork4truck
Spends too much time on here
I was just chatting on text with my long time 5ver towing brother. He has gone through trucks and trailers a fair bit, I thought they had settled down on trailers 2 years ago with a Grand Designs Mid 30’s length but no... today he says this after a 1st of the year 125 mile tow with his repaired 14’ Duramax 2500: (bolding is mine)
“This ones a 34’. We went back to Albuquerque in January and traded off the 32’ we had rebuilt by the factory under warranty. Tired of dealing with all the bad components.
This 310GK Solitude by Grand Design has stronger axles, More-ride suspension and runs on 16” G rated rubber. Dry weight is 2500 heavier than the 303 RLS Reflection we had before. The 3/4 ton Duramax pulls this 12000 dry weight, probably 14000 with gear OK. Be a little slower thru the tunnel, but I don’t push too fast anyway.
Won’t be doing too much ATV doubles towing much anymore. The extra 2’ gave us a nicer bathroom and king bed.
If you read the Grand design owners forums, you can follow all the horror stories of terrible quality control and poor components used. Just hope we got a good one. Just water issues so far.”
i had asked him what the duramax equipped 2500’s payload was, he didnt say but he’s likely about maxed out. A 14K trailer would be 2800# pin roughly, and they go about 350# combined plus always extra gear so... better have about 3300# payload. With a diesel motor, I doubt it.
I know you said you had a 2500 also but sheesh, payloads have to be really big for a 39’...
NDanecker
Well-Known Member
So there are at least two of us on this board. Nice to see.
I somewhat agree and disagree. Engineering is a science and it incorporates math, equations, theory, metallurgy, and other factors that can be calculated. What cannot be calculated is stupidity, or ones inability to operate a device the way it was designed. Misuse will lead to failure, and ultimately injury or death. Most devices have limits set forth by the manufacturer, designers or engineers. Use the device within those limits and it should not fail at least not within the warranty envelope. As an engineer I am sure you are familiar with the safety factor, and that everything is designed to have a > 1 SF (2 being the most common). This is to account for uncontrollable variables like impact loading, misuse, uneven loading, etc. Not saying we should push our equipment into these zones but they do exist for a reason. Overloading a truck by a few percent or 50 lbs will likely not make your equipment fail. Enter the weekend Home Depot dude that overloaded his 1500 by 1000+ lbs of sheetrock and made it home safely without damage to truck or equipment. However, doing it with little experience or pushing those uncontrollable variables higher will make things fail sooner even though you may be within your manufacturer specifications. Guess the point I'm trying to make is that these limits are a guide, and just because you are within them it doesn't mean things won't fail, or will fail if you exceed them by a reasonable percentage. Common sense is far more important. Everyone's definition of 'what is safe' is objective and pure opinion based. This brings me to a previous point made by a few members that triggered me slightly. A fifth wheel should never be pulled by a 1/2 ton. I don't believe that is true especially knowing the dynamics of a 5th wheel setup over a TT, and for a member to push their agenda (or opinion or fear) on to other members is just incorrect. What is more important is to know your OWN limits, and that is not something you can put on a DOT place-card. These trucks are designed to tow. Don't be afraid to use it as such just respect common sense, and know your own limits. That is far more dangerous then being 50 lbs over on GVW.
silver billet
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Why do you keep talking about safety as an "either or" deal? Two different people can do two different things and still be unsafe, one is not a better unsafe than another.
What many of us are trying to tell you, is that the vast majority of 5ers are heavy pigs. 9000 pounds is fairly light for a 5th wheel, some sites claiming the average being around 12 to 15 thousand pounds. So just dropping the unloaded trailer onto your otherwise unloaded truck, means you are over your payload. Dry, you just put 1800 to 2000 pounds on the bed of your truck rated to hold 1300 to 1700 pounds (on average) and you're over the limit before you even started packing in luggage and passengers.
That's a stupid and bad position to be in, especially because many loaded up Ram 1500's have payloads < 1500 pounds. We're not talking about 50 pounds overweight, were talking hundreds of pounds overweight and people just poo-poohing it away.
Perhaps we need talk in more specific terms; this specific 5th wheel is just under the safe limit for that specific truck. But generally speaking, and even more than that; the vast majority of the time, 5th wheel on a half ton = very bad decision.
What many of us are trying to tell you, is that the vast majority of 5ers are heavy pigs. 9000 pounds is fairly light for a 5th wheel, some sites claiming the average being around 12 to 15 thousand pounds. So just dropping the unloaded trailer onto your otherwise unloaded truck, means you are over your payload. Dry, you just put 1800 to 2000 pounds on the bed of your truck rated to hold 1300 to 1700 pounds (on average) and you're over the limit before you even started packing in luggage and passengers.
That's a stupid and bad position to be in, especially because many loaded up Ram 1500's have payloads < 1500 pounds. We're not talking about 50 pounds overweight, were talking hundreds of pounds overweight and people just poo-poohing it away.
Perhaps we need talk in more specific terms; this specific 5th wheel is just under the safe limit for that specific truck. But generally speaking, and even more than that; the vast majority of the time, 5th wheel on a half ton = very bad decision.
Willwork4truck
Spends too much time on here
I don’t have a dog in this specific hunt however as I’ve posted before, it really varies with people’s comfort factors. From a strictly D.O.T. standpoint, if you are operating a commercial vehicle and you are even 50# over an axle the scale weighmaster or trooper can fine you. They take the weight limits exact without figuring in any safety factors.
Now we are talking about your everyday less than knowledgable owner who hooks up a trailer, 5ver, boat, truck camper, horse/cattle trailer etc. Not that many of them are all that experienced as trailer towers or camper drivers, but some are very experienced.
We have a member or two on this board and probably forum who transports rv’s for a living and has lots and lots of miles doing said business. His/their level of experience even if overloaded (don’t know if he/they have routinely been or not) is quite different than Mr. familyman who gets “eyes bigger than his payload itus“ while RV shopping and comes home with the assurances of the rv salesman still in his ears “yeah It’s 1/2 ton towable”. That’s where a built-in safety margin will likely save the family and someone else’s life when mr. now grossly overloaded tows the trailer.
Being technically overloaded doesn’t render the trailer untowable safely from point A to point B but due to all the other factors with moving machinery like speeds, road conditions, weather, driver experience, other vehicles and their driver’s experience, mechanical condition yet this gives the driver just another potentially catastrophic issue to deal with. Having the trailer too big/heavy/wrongly set up and the proverbial “tail wagging the dog” is obviously dangerous. When the tractor trailer grossing 80K zooms by and the suction/frontal wave moves you from one side to another, that’s when loading and experience count.
The long and short of it is staying within your payload is just plain smart. Being maybe 10-15% over is likely “ok” due to the engineered safety factors. Thank goodness for them! The problem is when the driver is 50-100% overloaded.
We are a quieter forum, but post this question on the rv forums and watch out, flame city!
Now we are talking about your everyday less than knowledgable owner who hooks up a trailer, 5ver, boat, truck camper, horse/cattle trailer etc. Not that many of them are all that experienced as trailer towers or camper drivers, but some are very experienced.
We have a member or two on this board and probably forum who transports rv’s for a living and has lots and lots of miles doing said business. His/their level of experience even if overloaded (don’t know if he/they have routinely been or not) is quite different than Mr. familyman who gets “eyes bigger than his payload itus“ while RV shopping and comes home with the assurances of the rv salesman still in his ears “yeah It’s 1/2 ton towable”. That’s where a built-in safety margin will likely save the family and someone else’s life when mr. now grossly overloaded tows the trailer.
Being technically overloaded doesn’t render the trailer untowable safely from point A to point B but due to all the other factors with moving machinery like speeds, road conditions, weather, driver experience, other vehicles and their driver’s experience, mechanical condition yet this gives the driver just another potentially catastrophic issue to deal with. Having the trailer too big/heavy/wrongly set up and the proverbial “tail wagging the dog” is obviously dangerous. When the tractor trailer grossing 80K zooms by and the suction/frontal wave moves you from one side to another, that’s when loading and experience count.
The long and short of it is staying within your payload is just plain smart. Being maybe 10-15% over is likely “ok” due to the engineered safety factors. Thank goodness for them! The problem is when the driver is 50-100% overloaded.
We are a quieter forum, but post this question on the rv forums and watch out, flame city!
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Willwork4truck
Spends too much time on here
A funny from the F150forum on a thread about funniest/scariest towing pics/things:
Willwork4truck
Spends too much time on here
I never knew this and it’s from “my generation”. This is post #41 on F150.com entitled “scary things you’ve seen while towing” dated 8-29-2019:
Begin post
‘While VW obviously offered (semi) camper options for the type 2, I don't think they ever produced a trailer. The car as a fifth-wheel hauler concept was brought to fruition by Harmon Ind...
…and did not last long due to causing damage to vehicles. Apparently all roof structures are not created equal (ya think?), and getting the trailer stuck spelled doom for some. Imagine trying to back into a camping spot, having zero visibility, and hitting a tree or rock, with the shock transmitting through the hitch that is right above your head. To a structure that is not secured to the chassis. With only the pillars preventing the roof from collapsing. Or not.”
End of copied post.
Ok, what structural engineer signed off on that design?
Begin post
‘While VW obviously offered (semi) camper options for the type 2, I don't think they ever produced a trailer. The car as a fifth-wheel hauler concept was brought to fruition by Harmon Ind...
…and did not last long due to causing damage to vehicles. Apparently all roof structures are not created equal (ya think?), and getting the trailer stuck spelled doom for some. Imagine trying to back into a camping spot, having zero visibility, and hitting a tree or rock, with the shock transmitting through the hitch that is right above your head. To a structure that is not secured to the chassis. With only the pillars preventing the roof from collapsing. Or not.”
End of copied post.
Ok, what structural engineer signed off on that design?
NDanecker
Well-Known Member
I am hoping it wasn't one of the car manufacturers but ya never know. LOL
Trooper4
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I bagged it right off the showroom floor, and added exhaust brake and bigger exhaust. I know I was over on recommended weights and hit the scale at 22.5k. Never had a problem with iffy handling. Towed and drove great. Been towing since early 80's long distances, crooked roads, you name it, but NEVER pushed the speed and drove 10 car lengths ahead. I see people doing 75+ with a 40' trailer and a 3500, and THAT scares me. No way to stop that much weight at those speeds.
Willwork4truck
Spends too much time on here
Exactly, watch the speed and following distance.
Course‘ my brothers 34 years as a semi truck driver with over 3 million accident free miles probably makes some difference as compared to my 340 lifetime miles of experience towing a long 5th wheel (actually a 40’ equipment gooseneck).
Most calculations in engineering are approximations and in many cases limited by the techniques used in the manufacture or the resolution and accuracy of sensors and testing equipment. Medicine is worse; how often is the actual concentration of a pharmaceutical even measured?
Many of the limitations of the truck are artificial Other than the Ram 2500's 4-link rear suspension, generally, the only difference between a 2500 and 3500 pickup is the spring capacity. Same engine, trans, axles, tires, brakes, chassis. But, to be Class II the 2500 has a GVWR of 10k.
There used to be HD pickups and Suburbans with a GVWR or 8600 vs 6900-to-7100 typical for a 1500 pickup. They had LT tires, 8-lug wheels, stronger axles. They no longer exist. However, for practical purposes, it is possible to modify a 1500 for maybe a 7800-to-8000 GVWR (although not legally rated since no one is certifying it) with changes to the tires, wheels, and springs.
Ford still lists 5th wheel towing for its F150 pickup. Depending on the model and options they rate it to 9100 lbs. However, they do talk about options reducing that limit. And there a few 5th wheel trailers with that low a wet weight. Maybe a gooseneck flatbed equipment hauler.
One other point, there is no calculated or experimental engineering behind the mythical 10% tongue weight for bumper pulls. Not only is the number 4.5%-to-6% in Europe and it is probably 8%-to-9% in the US after a WD hitch is adjusted. However, since trailers are designed for 10% tongue weight, unless using a custom trailer or having the flexibility to move the load, getting to 6% before WD adjustment is not possible. The only experimental papers I found are from the 1970s. Also, there aren't hard and fast rules for adjusting the WD hitch, especially with primary or supplemental air springs.
OK the more I read this thread the more confused or uncertain I get about moving forward. I have a 2019 Limited with 1333 lb payload capacity.....which I REALLY want to keep but I also would like a 5th wheel. The lightest dry hitch weight 5th Wheel I have found (that also has a slideout) is the KZ Sportsman 231RK . According to the KZ specs it has 840 lbs dry hitch weight. My wife, dog and I weigh 310 lbs. If I am correct then this leaves 183 lbs for a hitch and any other payload? Anderson makes a 40 lb light rail mount hitch. If I use this then I still have 143 lbs I can carry in the truck or in the camper directly over the hitch - which seems doable if I plan carefully. Am I forgetting any other weight? Also what happens if I occasionally exceed payload by 100 or 200 lbs? I that really a huge issue? Thanks for any input!
NDanecker
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@drhoda there would be nothing wrong with exceeding payload by 100 or 200lbs occasionally.
Let's do this. You are obviously doing due diligence looking for a 5th wheel that is actually 1/2 ton towable.
So, say you are going camping. You want to take firewood as your additional payload. You load up 150lbs of fire wood. On the way home...you are back under payload. I see no issue with that.
Remember, all your numbers matter. I think a real, overlooked number is how much weight is removed from the steer axle. With a bumper pull, a WDH will add it back...i do not think that can happen with a 5th wheel.
So, you load the truck, take all precautions and your payload goes over the door sticker by 150lbs.
But, you may actually have about 150lbs of axle rating left. I would tow that.
Also, remember...your state may take notice if you are above your registered weight. Lots of people did not get a class 2 sticker for their 1500 (Pennsylvania registration). And in some places you actually need to register for the combined weight. So, there is other research that alot of people skip.
Good luck in your search. You are definitely in the right direction.
Let's do this. You are obviously doing due diligence looking for a 5th wheel that is actually 1/2 ton towable.
So, say you are going camping. You want to take firewood as your additional payload. You load up 150lbs of fire wood. On the way home...you are back under payload. I see no issue with that.
Remember, all your numbers matter. I think a real, overlooked number is how much weight is removed from the steer axle. With a bumper pull, a WDH will add it back...i do not think that can happen with a 5th wheel.
So, you load the truck, take all precautions and your payload goes over the door sticker by 150lbs.
But, you may actually have about 150lbs of axle rating left. I would tow that.
Also, remember...your state may take notice if you are above your registered weight. Lots of people did not get a class 2 sticker for their 1500 (Pennsylvania registration). And in some places you actually need to register for the combined weight. So, there is other research that alot of people skip.
Good luck in your search. You are definitely in the right direction.
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My truck with about 3200 lbs of block in the bed. 
Payload is 2998. So I am over by quite a bit.
Truck was not over GAWR and handled and performed as expected.
This is also the proper way to level the truck...had I had a level kit that so many feel they need...my lights would have pointed to the sky and I am sure the truck would not have handled well.
This load here was at 9760 GVWR...so well under GVWR of 10k
Properly inflated tires, common sense speeds, I feel comfortable going above payload for those few times you need to. I would not do this as the way I would take my family to camp every weekend.
For that I have plenty of Capacity left as shown by my CAT scale slip loaded for camping.
Just my thoughts on using a truck.
Payload is 2998. So I am over by quite a bit.Truck was not over GAWR and handled and performed as expected.
This is also the proper way to level the truck...had I had a level kit that so many feel they need...my lights would have pointed to the sky and I am sure the truck would not have handled well.
This load here was at 9760 GVWR...so well under GVWR of 10k
Properly inflated tires, common sense speeds, I feel comfortable going above payload for those few times you need to. I would not do this as the way I would take my family to camp every weekend.
For that I have plenty of Capacity left as shown by my CAT scale slip loaded for camping.
Just my thoughts on using a truck.
Willwork4truck
Spends too much time on here
I think your 3200# on a nearly 3000# payload is no real issue as work-type trucks are routinely overloaded when used “as trucks”.
Gosh the number of plumbers vans I see going down the road ***-end low is staggering. Yes they are usually e-150 or 250’s but same difference, overloaded all day long and do the job without complaint. Big difference is that there’s no trailer with high sides and frontal areas catching winds and having pivot points at the hitch to throw handling off.
That’s where payload numbers are sorta’ meaningless when people don’t consider the frontal “sail” area and the height of the sides. On windy days or when being passed by semi’s it’s getting shoved around by their “bow wave” that really causes sway/stress issues. Your single unit loaded truck never even encounters that.
All this to say, the more side and frontal area you have and the longer the trailer is compared to your truck’s wheelbase, the more important overall weights and speeds are.
