Alpine 10sp - ongoing results from testing ANC, speaker polarities, wiring harnesses...

[rsonedecker]

So I started the speaker replacement a few days ago.
I have the 10 speaker alpine.

First test was a baseline Speaker Pop polarity test with ANC "on" (as it is from the factory). I tested using an aux cable plugged between the phone and the radio, with mono test signal output turned on and playing the test "pop" through the aux media source on the radio, with the volume turned up. Signal strength was excellent, and it's very accurate this way.

Every single speaker EXCEPT for the left dash speaker was out-of-phase. Center, right dash, all doors, and both rear upper speakers were out-of-phase. And my left dash speaker was NOTICEABLY louder/brighter than all the rest, and I had to have it faded way to the right-rear to get decent balance.

Next, I disabled ANC - (removed both positive and negative microphone wires from the amp - chose to do all 8 just to be "thorough").

Tested again, and disabling ANC changed nothing, all the speakers EXCEPT for the driver(left) dash were still out-of-phase. So doesn't look like ANC is causing the polarity change.

I then validated all the wiring at the amp, and that it matched the wiring diagrams. (except the Crank RPM wires, which were reversed in the wiring harness, BR/DG was in position 6 instead of 1, and BR/GR was in position 1 instead of 6)

So then I replaced all the dash speakers yesterday. All the dash speakers are the same part number, and the positive terminal is the left terminal (when holding the speaker upright (cone facing upward) and looking at the plug) - I tested all of them with the 9 volt test to verify polarity.

For the left front dash, which was in-phase, the factory harness plug has the GY/YE wire in the positive position (what would connect to the positive terminal of the speaker), and this wire IS carrying the positive signal. The Wiring Diagram indicates that it's supposed to be negative (but it's positive). The GY/OR wire, which is supposed to be positive, was in-turn negative. The wiring diagram is incorrect for the left front dash speaker (or the amp is configured incorrectly, or there is a sub-connector in-line on the harness somewhere and that is reversed). Since the wire carrying the positive signal was in the correct position in the factory harness plug, I did not need to re-pin the Metra Harness at this location.

However, the wiring at the center and right dash speaker was incorrectly pinned at the factory - the positive wire indicated on the wiring diagram (GY/DG - center, and GY/BR - right) WAS indeed carrying the positive signal (wiring diagram was correct), but it was connected to the NEGATIVE terminal on the factory speaker (causing the out-of-phase issue) - it was in the right (not left) position in the factory harness plug, but it should have been in the left position. I therefore re-pinned the factory harness plugs (much easier than the metra harnesses) and switched the positions in the harness plug at both the center and right locations.

Installed all three GX302s and they are now all in-phase, and the sound is much more balanced across the front, and the "surround sound" sound field works so much better now.

I left ANC disabled.

More to come (more speakers to install!)

I know there are some people that think this is not a "mistake" but based on the variable nature of other people's problems (sometimes it's just left door speakers or just the right, sometimes only one dash and all doors, sometimes various doors, etc - in other words, random), I personally feel these issues are mistakes and not supposed to be this way.

 

[Patsy1099]

Yeah not sure what’s going in that amp and whether it corrects for stock being out of phase or what but the wiring definitely seems screwy. When I started my swap I made sure everything was installed/tested to be in phase. Sound is crisp and clean. No ANC issues. But I also didn’t have ANC issues beforehand either. I have only done front and dash so far.

 

[troutspinner]

Nice work and keep up the good work. My only concern would be if it is incorrectly wired from the factory and it is a consistent problem, they could then make corrections in the DSP and correct it via an update. At that point, you’re switching polarity again after the update.

As you’ve stated, there are people who believe the polarity is purposely done this way, it’s a method used often in the audio world. Personally, I’ve built many systems and switching phase has never yielded a better result for my installs.

 

[Adrianp89]

It's important to note that sometimes in phase in not the problem. Alpine's processing may purposefully put them out of phase. Also important to note that with higher frequency, polarity is not important.

At the end of the day do what you think sounds best, however I bet your testing holds no bearing as it was designed this way from the factory.

 

[YoAdrian]

So I started the speaker replacement a few days ago.
I have the 10 speaker alpine.

First test was a baseline Speaker Pop polarity test with ANC "on" (as it is from the factory). I tested using an aux cable plugged between the phone and the radio, with mono test signal output turned on and playing the test "pop" through the aux media source on the radio, with the volume turned up. Signal strength was excellent, and it's very accurate this way.

Every single speaker EXCEPT for the left dash speaker was out-of-phase. Center, right dash, all doors, and both rear upper speakers were out-of-phase. And my left dash speaker was NOTICEABLY louder/brighter than all the rest, and I had to have it faded way to the right-rear to get decent balance.

Next, I disabled ANC - (removed both positive and negative microphone wires from the amp - chose to do all 8 just to be "thorough").

Tested again, and disabling ANC changed nothing, all the speakers EXCEPT for the driver(left) dash were still out-of-phase. So doesn't look like ANC is causing the polarity change.

I then validated all the wiring at the amp, and that it matched the wiring diagrams. (except the Crank RPM wires, which were reversed in the wiring harness, BR/DG was in position 6 instead of 1, and BR/GR was in position 1 instead of 6)

So then I replaced all the dash speakers yesterday. All the dash speakers are the same part number, and the positive terminal is the left terminal (when holding the speaker upright (cone facing upward) and looking at the plug) - I tested all of them with the 9 volt test to verify polarity.

For the left front dash, which was in-phase, the factory harness plug has the GY/YE wire in the positive position (what would connect to the positive terminal of the speaker), and this wire IS carrying the positive signal. The Wiring Diagram indicates that it's supposed to be negative (but it's positive). The GY/OR wire, which is supposed to be positive, was in-turn negative. The wiring diagram is incorrect for the left front dash speaker (or the amp is configured incorrectly, or there is a sub-connector in-line on the harness somewhere and that is reversed). Since the wire carrying the positive signal was in the correct position in the factory harness plug, I did not need to re-pin the Metra Harness at this location.

However, the wiring at the center and right dash speaker was incorrectly pinned at the factory - the positive wire indicated on the wiring diagram (GY/DG - center, and GY/BR - right) WAS indeed carrying the positive signal (wiring diagram was correct), but it was connected to the NEGATIVE terminal on the factory speaker (causing the out-of-phase issue) - it was in the right (not left) position in the factory harness plug, but it should have been in the left position. I therefore re-pinned the factory harness plugs (much easier than the metra harnesses) and switched the positions in the harness plug at both the center and right locations.

Installed all three GX302s and they are now all in-phase, and the sound is much more balanced across the front, and the "surround sound" sound field works so much better now.

I left ANC disabled.

More to come (more speakers to install!)

I know there are some people that think this is not a "mistake" but based on the variable nature of other people's problems (sometimes it's just left door speakers or just the right, sometimes only one dash and all doors, sometimes various doors, etc - in other words, random), I personally feel these issues are mistakes and not supposed to be this way.

@rsonedecker - echoing @troutspinner (who knows his stuff on audio!) - thanks for that thorough test and post. Nice work. High five.

I hope @RamCares can find a way of getting your info to the engineers working on the ANC issues (and the STAR case) so we can find out if our audio systems are truly designed to be wired out of phase, or if these various out of phase conditions are just errors that need to be corrected. Would be nice to know what the relationship is between speaker polarity and the ANC functions (and thus the ANC MALfunctions).

Thanks again, keep up the good and careful work.

 

[rsonedecker]

It's important to note that sometimes in phase in not the problem. Alpine's processing may purposefully put them out of phase. Also important to note that with higher frequency, polarity is not important.

At the end of the day do what you think sounds best, however I bet your testing holds no bearing as it was designed this way from the factory.

If there wasn't tremendous inconsistency across trucks, and there wasn't also the fact that the factory indicated positive wires in some cases were hard wired to the negative terminal, I would agree. I looked back at some pics of others and their harness connector had the wires correct for the center channel. Why was mine reversed? Why are some people's doors reversed, and others not? But regardless, proof is in the puddin', and the sound stage sounded horrible at the start (tremendous left bias), but with re-pinning the two center and right channels, even with the factory speakers dropped in before the GX302s, the sound was phenomenally better - so if it's "supposed" to be like this from the factory (random wiring and let the amp figure it out...), then they did a poor job.

 

[rsonedecker]

Nice work and keep up the good work. My only concern would be if it is incorrectly wired from the factory and it is a consistent problem, they could then make corrections in the DSP and correct it via an update. At that point, you’re switching polarity again after the update.

As you’ve stated, there are people who believe the polarity is purposely done this way, it’s a method used often in the audio world. Personally, I’ve built many systems and switching phase has never yielded a better result for my installs.

Yeah, I thought of the update issue, but figure I'll just not let them do the update if I can. Frankly, with the inconsistency of wiring I am seeing, I can't see how this could be fixed across-the-board at the amp, but then I'm not an engineer.

As for polarity, I know it's definitely a method, but I'm pretty sure it's not meant to be like this in a confined space like my truck - only one in-phase and everything else out-of-phase? I could see if they had opposing speakers in and out of phase, or doors out of phase only, etc. But there's no logic in how mine is setup, and I know others have had different setups (all dash in-phase, some doors out-of-phase, and many other variations, etc). There's just no discernible logic to it. And the fact that the wiring at the harness connector is actually physically reversed compared to others just adds to the confusion (you would think that the wiring would at least be the same in all alpine systems).

 

[troutspinner]

Yeah, I thought of the update issue, but figure I'll just not let them do the update if I can. Frankly, with the inconsistency of wiring I am seeing, I can't see how this could be fixed across-the-board at the amp, but then I'm not an engineer.

As for polarity, I know it's definitely a method, but I'm pretty sure it's not meant to be like this in a confined space like my truck - only one in-phase and everything else out-of-phase? I could see if they had opposing speakers in and out of phase, or doors out of phase only, etc. But there's no logic in how mine is setup, and I know others have had different setups (all dash in-phase, some doors out-of-phase, and many other variations, etc). There's just no discernible logic to it. And the fact that the wiring at the harness connector is actually physically reversed compared to others just adds to the confusion (you would think that the wiring would at least be the same in all alpine systems).

Wiring could be inconsistent purposely through assembly. This is just theory mind you. Could these speakers be tested and phased when final connections are made at the amp/anc? I doubt it as manufacturing should be consistent but stranger things have happened. Nonetheless, if your ears hear it as better, run with it.

 

[rsonedecker]

Wiring could be inconsistent purposely through assembly. This is just theory mind you. Could these speakers be tested and phased when final connections are made at the amp/anc? I doubt it as manufacturing should be consistent but stranger things have happened. Nonetheless, if your ears hear it as better, run with it.

Toyed with that idea myself and it's been posed before, but I just can't see that - perhaps for hign-end Lexus or MBs maybe...maybe they go through some custom tuning on a car-by-car basis, but I really don't think our Rams make a stop on the assembly line to have the audio system custom-tuned on a car-by-car basis. And I don't think it would involve pulling the speaker and swapping the positive wires in the factory plug (like in my center and right dash speakers). That's the thing that really has me thinking this is a mistake - the fact that the Gray/Green and Gray/Brown positive wires themselves were physically switched in the harness plug at the speaker making the polarity change permanent at the speaker instead of allowing the amp to make the polarity change.

 

[YoAdrian]

Toyed with that idea myself and it's been posed before, but I just can't see that - perhaps for hign-end Lexus or MBs maybe...maybe they go through some custom tuning on a car-by-car basis, but I really don't think our Rams make a stop on the assembly line to have the audio system custom-tuned on a car-by-car basis. And I don't think it would involve pulling the speaker and swapping the positive wires in the factory plug (like in my center and right dash speakers). That's the thing that really has me thinking this is a mistake - the fact that the Gray/Green and Gray/Brown positive wires themselves were physically switched in the harness plug at the speaker making the polarity change permanent at the speaker instead of allowing the amp to make the polarity change.

Your logic is refreshing these days. Though certainly a possibility, a stop on the assembly line to custom set speaker polarity (in some cases for a base model stock speaker system no less) doesn’t make sense from a manufacturing or business standpoint.

 

[rsonedecker]

Additional info. I don't know why I didn't take pics, but will going forward. So I flexed the ole' artistic muscles (read as I threw together crappy paint drawings) and created these pics of how the system WAS wired from the factory.

Below was left dash speaker. Note that the gray/yellow is in the positive position, even though it's listed as negative in the wiring diagram. But also, it WAS carrying the positive signal, and the speaker was in-phase, so no re-pin was required.



Below was the center dash speaker. Note that the Gray/Brown is in the negative position, but it's listed as the positive in the wiring diagram, and it was carrying the positive signal, as the speaker was out-of-phase. This one I had to re-pin the factory connector to get the gray/brown to the positive side.


Below was the right dash speaker. Just as the center, note that the Gray/Dark Green is in the negative position, but it's listed as the positive in the wiring diagram, and it was carrying the positive signal, as the speaker was out-of-phase. This one as well I had to re-pin the factory connector to get the gray/dark green to the positive side.


If you really pay close attention here, if you went SOLELY based on the wiring diagram, you would see that all three speakers were wired out-of-phase, as the left dash speaker actually is "wired" out-of-phase as well. Gray/Orange is positive in the wiring diagram, and it's on the right side of the connector (negative side of speaker). But in the case of the left speaker, gray/orange doesn't carry the positive signal.

 

[rsonedecker]

Does anyone have access to a 3D wiring image that shows where the dash sub-connector XY330A is located. That looks to be a harness connector in the dash where these wires pass through. I'd like to take a look at the harness and see the input and output sides.

 

[troutspinner]

I’m sure you’ve given this thought but just for clarity...are you using adapters from Metra or someone else to do your final speaker connections? I’ve read review where some of the adapters actually have the polarity reversed which could throw a wrench into figuring it out.

 

[Billet1500 4x4]

So I started the speaker replacement a few days ago.

I then validated all the wiring at the amp, and that it matched the wiring diagrams. (except the Crank RPM wires, which were reversed in the wiring harness, BR/DG was in position 6 instead of 1, and BR/GR was in position 1 instead of 6)

.

My bad, I made that mistake on the diagram with the crank sensor on C3. Which RAM doesn't even indicate on their diagram that those wires exist or what they are for. I went back and looked at the picture of the connectors I used to make the diagrams and you are correct I have the colors swapped for the crank input. I never checked the actual signal at the dash speakers just verified polarity of the terminals and assumed the wires carried correctly all the way through from the amp connections but now from your findings it sounds like they may be getting reversed at the XY330A connector. Since these speakers are easy to access I'm going to check them out this weekend and see if I find the same issue with the wiring at the dash being flipped around from the diagram. The GX's were a huge improvement over the stock speakers but they still didn't sound quite right, I'm guessing I'll probably find an issue, I'll update my diagram based on what I find. As far as I can tell the dash speakers do not participate in the ANC signal, this is handled entirely by the doors so correcting phase issues shouldn't affect the ANC. In my experience the doors caused the ANC to act up when they were installed with the correct phase and all 4 had to be wired for reverse polarity like the stock speakers. My suspicion is this was done intentionally. Sound goes into the microphone gets directed to the speaker and since the speakers is already wired reverse you have a the same sound being produced exactly 180 degrees out to cancel the noise.

I have attached a corrected diagram flipping the 2 brown wires for the crank input on the C3 connector.

 

[Billet1500 4x4]

Toyed with that idea myself and it's been posed before, but I just can't see that - perhaps for hign-end Lexus or MBs maybe...maybe they go through some custom tuning on a car-by-car basis, but I really don't think our Rams make a stop on the assembly line to have the audio system custom-tuned on a car-by-car basis. And I don't think it would involve pulling the speaker and swapping the positive wires in the factory plug (like in my center and right dash speakers). That's the thing that really has me thinking this is a mistake - the fact that the Gray/Green and Gray/Brown positive wires themselves were physically switched in the harness plug at the speaker making the polarity change permanent at the speaker instead of allowing the amp to make the polarity change.

No doubt these wiring harnesses are not being produced per the diagrams, however it's hard to say if the diagrams are wrong, the harnesses are wrong or mix between the 2. I would be shocked if ram included circuitry in the amp to perform switching of polarities on a per channel basis for a 12 channel amplifier the additional costs and logic required would be cost prohibited, the DSP is likely is performing some phase delay for timing but a complete swap of polarities is unlikely.

 

[rsonedecker]

I’m sure you’ve given this thought but just for clarity...are you using adapters from Metra or someone else to do your final speaker connections? I’ve read review where some of the adapters actually have the polarity reversed which could throw a wrench into figuring it out.

Metra, but I am making the correction in the factory plug, not the metra. I'm making sure the metra's hook up correctly.

And I think the reason people are reporting issues with the metra harnesses being "reversed" is actually because the factory plug is reversed.

 

[Adrianp89]

Metra, but I am making the correction in the factory plug, not the metra. I'm making sure the metra's hook up correctly.

And I think the reason people are reporting issues with the metra harnesses being "reversed" is actually because the factory plug is reversed.

As a person that has used 100s, if not 1000s of Metra harnesses, I can say confidently that they can come reversed. IIRC they were reversed on the 4th gens dash speakers.

 

[YoAdrian]

As a person that has used 100s, if not 1000s of Metra harnesses, I can say confidently that they can come reversed. IIRC they were reversed on the 4th gens dash speakers.

*off topic* Yo, Adrian, cool name.

Did the reversal seem random or would specific Metra part numbers be right or reversed consistently?

 

[Adrianp89]

*off topic* Yo, Adrian, cool name.

Did the reversal seem random or would specific Metra part numbers be right or reversed consistently?

Metra's QC is non-existent. I would say it's more random than anything.

 

[rsonedecker]

As a person that has used 100s, if not 1000s of Metra harnesses, I can say confidently that they can come reversed. IIRC they were reversed on the 4th gens dash speakers.

Perhaps. But just to reiterate, my analysis didn't involve the metra harnesses, nor did the testing involve them. The reveral is happening in the factory connector. I marked the connector side that was supposed to be positive based on testing the speaker's polarity.

However, the dash metra harnesses are indeed wired correctly and are not reversed themselves. The fact that the factory plug is reversed is what would cause the metra to be "reversed". Summary, if you wanted to hook up the aftermarket speakers the SAME WAY as the factory, the metra harnesses do the job as they should - white wire maps to (what) the positive (should be) on the factory plug.