Alpine 10sp - ongoing results from testing ANC, speaker polarities, wiring harnesses...

[rsonedecker]

And in addition, many metra harneses have "reversed" versions, and I actually just ordered some because of the situation I am faced with at the doors. I had purchased the 72-6514 71-050 harnesses, which position the positive wire correctly in relation to the factory plug and speaker, but taking into consideration the post above, instead of re-pinning the factory plug, I think I'm going to flip polarity using the Metra harness - so I just ordered the 72-6514 71-050 which is the "reverse" version of 72-6514 71-050.

Edited above because I had them flipped.

And in fact, I've brought this up before - there are FCA speakers that use the same plug, but have different polarities (hense the need for metra harnesses that plug into the same plug, but have flipped wires - like the pair above). Could the wrong speakers be getting into our trucks?

Reason being is that I just popped open the driver's side front door, and that factory plug is reversed as well - the factory positive wire which is indeed carrying the positive signal, is located in the negative position in the plug (which is causing the door speaker to be out-of-phase). So again, here we are seeing polarity being changed AT THE SPEAKER instead of at the amp where you would think if it was meant to be happening, it would happen there at the amp - not at the speaker.

I expect the other doors to be same.

 

[rsonedecker]

Here's a good example. This is the left front door. You can see that I tested the factory speaker and determined the speaker's polarity (see the "+" and "-" marks on the speaker frame). It is plugged into the factory plug. According to the wiring diagram, grey/yellow is supposed to be negative from the amp for the left front door speaker. However, it is in the wrong position in the factory plug, as it maps to the speaker's positive. This speaker tests as being out-of-phase, which would make sense since the plug is wired backwards.

 

[Billet1500 4x4]

And in addition, many metra harneses have "reversed" versions, and I actually just ordered some because of the situation I am faced with at the doors. I had purchased the 72-6514 harnesses, which position the positive wire correctly in relation to the factory plug and speaker, but taking into consideration the post above, instead of re-pinning the factory plug, I think I'm going to flip polarity using the Metra harness - so I just ordered the 71-050 which is the "reverse" version of 72-6514.

And in fact, I've brought this up before - there are FCA speakers that use the same plug, but have different polarities (hense the need for metra harnesses that plug into the same plug, but have flipped wires - like the pair above). Could the wrong speakers be getting into our trucks?

Reason being is that I just popped open the driver's side front door, and that factory plug is reversed as well - the factory positive wire which is indeed carrying the positive signal, is located in the negative position in the plug (which is causing the door speaker to be out-of-phase). So again, here we are seeing polarity being changed AT THE SPEAKER instead of at the amp where you would think if it was meant to be happening, it would happen there at the amp - not at the speaker.

I expect the other doors to be same.

Same door speakers are used on the Alpine system as the base 6 speaker system but the front doors of the base 6 are wired in parallel to the dash speakers . To further complicate things I don't believe the V6 models have ANC, that is something specific to the 5.7. So they used the same door speakers across the board for trucks with alpine and base systems and maybe just screw with wiring to get things to work which creates a bunch of different harness requirements depending on options. I'd be curious to know what the wiring and speakers look like in a Laramie or Alpine equipped Bighorn with a V6.

 

[ksn240]

So I started the speaker replacement a few days ago.
I have the 10 speaker alpine.

First test was a baseline Speaker Pop polarity test with ANC "on" (as it is from the factory). I tested using an aux cable plugged between the phone and the radio, with mono test signal output turned on and playing the test "pop" through the aux media source on the radio, with the volume turned up. Signal strength was excellent, and it's very accurate this way.

Every single speaker EXCEPT for the left dash speaker was out-of-phase. Center, right dash, all doors, and both rear upper speakers were out-of-phase. And my left dash speaker was NOTICEABLY louder/brighter than all the rest, and I had to have it faded way to the right-rear to get decent balance.

Next, I disabled ANC - (removed both positive and negative microphone wires from the amp - chose to do all 8 just to be "thorough").

Tested again, and disabling ANC changed nothing, all the speakers EXCEPT for the driver(left) dash were still out-of-phase. So doesn't look like ANC is causing the polarity change.

I then validated all the wiring at the amp, and that it matched the wiring diagrams. (except the Crank RPM wires, which were reversed in the wiring harness, BR/DG was in position 6 instead of 1, and BR/GR was in position 1 instead of 6)

So then I replaced all the dash speakers yesterday. All the dash speakers are the same part number, and the positive terminal is the left terminal (when holding the speaker upright (cone facing upward) and looking at the plug) - I tested all of them with the 9 volt test to verify polarity.

For the left front dash, which was in-phase, the factory harness plug has the GY/YE wire in the positive position (what would connect to the positive terminal of the speaker), and this wire IS carrying the positive signal. The Wiring Diagram indicates that it's supposed to be negative (but it's positive). The GY/OR wire, which is supposed to be positive, was in-turn negative. The wiring diagram is incorrect for the left front dash speaker (or the amp is configured incorrectly, or there is a sub-connector in-line on the harness somewhere and that is reversed). Since the wire carrying the positive signal was in the correct position in the factory harness plug, I did not need to re-pin the Metra Harness at this location.

However, the wiring at the center and right dash speaker was incorrectly pinned at the factory - the positive wire indicated on the wiring diagram (GY/DG - center, and GY/BR - right) WAS indeed carrying the positive signal (wiring diagram was correct), but it was connected to the NEGATIVE terminal on the factory speaker (causing the out-of-phase issue) - it was in the right (not left) position in the factory harness plug, but it should have been in the left position. I therefore re-pinned the factory harness plugs (much easier than the metra harnesses) and switched the positions in the harness plug at both the center and right locations.

Installed all three GX302s and they are now all in-phase, and the sound is much more balanced across the front, and the "surround sound" sound field works so much better now.

I left ANC disabled.

More to come (more speakers to install!)

I know there are some people that think this is not a "mistake" but based on the variable nature of other people's problems (sometimes it's just left door speakers or just the right, sometimes only one dash and all doors, sometimes various doors, etc - in other words, random), I personally feel these issues are mistakes and not supposed to be this way.

This was my experience as well. Everything out of phase from the factory aside from the front left dash speaker. Center and right dash, all doors, and both rear headliner speakers were all out of phase.

 

[wildh24]

I'm wishing there was a way to test for +/- at the speaker end with a meter. I know the speaker pop app should work in theory, but I do think there is a huge amount of variability and possible error in that system including multiple speakers inside a car all emitting the same sound, reflective surfaces, varying mic quality on the phones, etc etc.

Not saying anyone's is wrong, just that I'm too analytical and see a lot of variables there.

Either way....I think we've all agreed there are questions on these set ups.

 

[Patsy1099]

I'm wishing there was a way to test for +/- at the speaker end with a meter. I know the speaker pop app should work in theory, but I do think there is a huge amount of variability and possible error in that system including multiple speakers inside a car all emitting the same sound, reflective surfaces, varying mic quality on the phones, etc etc.

Not saying anyone's is wrong, just that I'm too analytical and see a lot of variables there.

Either way....I think we've all agreed there are questions on these set ups.

You can test with a multimeter. Did you mean something else? You can test the speaker while connected, while disconnected and the wires while connected and disconnected. That will give you all the answers as to whether the speaker was/is connected in-phase and also whether the wires match the polarity in the schematic not that that really matters, since once you know the polarity you can either wire the new speakers exactly as the stock ones were wired or just put all the new speakers in phase (which is what I did).

 

[wildh24]

You can test with a multimeter. Did you mean something else? You can test the speaker while connected, while disconnected and the wires while connected and disconnected. That will give you all the answers as to whether the speaker was/is connected in-phase and also whether the wires match the polarity in the schematic not that that really matters, since once you know the polarity you can either wire the new speakers exactly as the stock ones were wired or just put all the new speakers in phase (which is what I did).

How do you test a speaker wire for +/- with the amp as the source using a DM? I'm not aware this is possible.

My thoughts were a simple hard connection or probe device that could be hooked up to the wires, a source played through the system, and it give you a reading +/- polarity. It'd be similar to speaker pop, but would remove the massive amount of variables.

 

[rsonedecker]

This was my experience as well. Everything out of phase from the factory aside from the front left dash speaker. Center and right dash, all doors, and both rear headliner speakers were all out of phase.

So I think that I have determined this is exactly how the vehicle is wired now that I've seen every speaker location as of last night.

EVERY SINGLE connector in my vehicle has the positive wire (as indicated by the wiring diagram) in the RIGHT position in the connector (you can use my images to note what I call "right"), which is the negative terminal on the speakers. So every speaker is actually wired out-of-phase. The only reason that my driver side (left) speaker is in-phase is because the wire that is supposed to be negative (gray/yellow) is actually positive for some reason. It's on the "negative side" of the connector at the amp (see pic) - the wires are always grouped negative on one side of the connector and positive on the other side at the amp - so it would appear it is indeed supposed to be negative (but yet it's positive at the speaker). So I'm really wondering if the wires are getting flipped at the sub-connector somewhere down the line between the amp and the dash for the left dash speaker. I plan to pull the left dash speaker and test the wire from the amp connector to the speaker plug and make sure the signal from the grey/yellow at the amp reaches the grey/yellow at the speaker.

So every speaker location is actually wired out-of-phase....OR are these trucks actually wired for what is supposed to be in-phase, but the speakers that are used have the positive and negative opposite of what FCA expected to be in this truck?

 

[rsonedecker]

Here are more pics:

This is the left rear door speaker. Grey/Dark Green is negative, Grey/Green is positive. Like everywhere else, they are reversed in relation to the speaker's polarity.


This is the left rear headliner speaker. If you look closely at the speaker frame to the right, you'll see my "+" indicator. Green/Dark Blue is positive, but it's in the negative position here as well.

 

[rsonedecker]

Did a little experiment this morning. I reversed all the speaker connectors in the doors and rear headliner (I hadn't yet replaced them with the JBLs, and I plan to reverse them back - the headliners are a bear because you don't have much room to work) and installed the factory speakers back in (dash were still JBL, but the rest are factory). I tested polarity and all were good to go. And now I can say with a strong opinion that this is how they were meant to be wired - the sound was much better, louder, you could actually hear the doors, and the front dash speakers were no longer overpowering, I actually faded it back to center for a good sound stage finally. And the surround sound processing actually sounded really good.

I don't think these are supposed to be wired out-of-phase...

 

[Billet1500 4x4]

I'm wishing there was a way to test for +/- at the speaker end with a meter. I know the speaker pop app should work in theory, but I do think there is a huge amount of variability and possible error in that system including multiple speakers inside a car all emitting the same sound, reflective surfaces, varying mic quality on the phones, etc etc.

Not saying anyone's is wrong, just that I'm too analytical and see a lot of variables there.

Either way....I think we've all agreed there are questions on these set ups.

You can you just play a test tone through the speaker and check voltage at the terminals. You need the right type of meter to measure AC voltage. Positive to positive you get a positive voltage reading if you have the leads for the meter reversed ie positive probe touching the ground terminal most meters will read a negative voltage. All my fluke meters work this way. you just want to make sure you're playing a test tone appropriate for the speaker you're checking. I will say I haven't attempted this with car audio signal voltage for checking polarity because typically you already know which is which, but this is how the meters work with standard 60 hz ac voltage at breaker panels in a building but AC voltage is AC voltage as long as you have a clean sine wave, that's why you use a test tone generator and not music. Same method you would use for setting gain on an amplifier except you would have second clamp on meter measuring current as well. Here's a quick youtube video of a guy measuring power output on an amplifier, but instead of measuring voltage at the amp terminal you would measure it at the speaker terminal.

 

[Flot]

This is an interesting thread - if ALL of the speakers are wired 'out of phase' then I am not sure it really matters. However, if ONE speaker is out of phase compared to the others, that will cause a real issue.

The big question is, is any of this intentional?

 

[rsonedecker]

I just confirmed that the grey/yellow wire at the amp does indeed map to the grey/yellow wire at the speaker. So for some reason, at least with my amp, the grey/yellow wire is carrying the positive instead of negative.

 

[Billet1500 4x4]

I just confirmed that the grey/yellow wire at the amp does indeed map to the grey/yellow wire at the speaker. So for some reason, at least with my amp, the grey/yellow wire is carrying the positive instead of negative.

Intersting one thing to note about the front left dash speaker is that it has a unique function that no other speakers perform. This is the speaker the truck uses for warning chimes and the clicking noise you hear when the turn signal is on. I wonder if something strange is going on here because of that. It's odd because the connectors are all laid out with the grounds all in a row and all the signals in a row except for that one speaker.

 

[Patsy1099]

How do you test a speaker wire for +/- with the amp as the source using a DM? I'm not aware this is possible.

My thoughts were a simple hard connection or probe device that could be hooked up to the wires, a source played through the system, and it give you a reading +/- polarity. It'd be similar to speaker pop, but would remove the massive amount of variables.

All you need to do is put the multimeter probes on either the terminals of a connected speaker, or if the soearker is disconnected, the two speaker wires. Power must be on in the truck. Multimeter set to DC, put it in the lowest setting (mine is 200). Negative reading means polarity reverses. Switch the probes and it should be positive. It doesn’t matter if the speaker is connected because the speaker doesn’t have power without the wires. It can be connected, or not.

I’m sure you know this but if you want to figure out the polarity of a speaker that is disconnected, say if the terminals aren’t labeled, you can push voltage to the terminals using a 9volt battery. Touch the terminals to the battery, if the speaker come flexes outward, then the polarity is correct. Whatever speaker terminal is connected to the positive battery terminal is indeed positive. If the speaker come pushes inward then polarity is reversed. Then you can label the speaker terminal.

 

[Hackmunch]

This is an interesting thread - if ALL of the speakers are wired 'out of phase' then I am not sure it really matters. However, if ONE speaker is out of phase compared to the others, that will cause a real issue.

The big question is, is any of this intentional?

correct. phase is just a reference . if all the speakers were wired out of phase it would sound exactly the same as if all were in phase. now obviously to eliminate a noise /tone or frequency you just emit the same frequency/tone/noise out of phase. this is what the anc does and how it works.

 

[troutspinner]

Intersting one thing to note about the front left dash speaker is that it has a unique function that no other speakers perform. This is the speaker the truck uses for warning chimes and the clicking noise you hear when the turn signal is on. I wonder if something strange is going on here because of that. It's odd because the connectors are all laid out with the grounds all in a row and all the signals in a row except for that one speaker.

This would be handled internally in the processing. Just lowering other channels or increasing that channel.

 

[Tedscanoe]

I was getting ready to get some JBL GX302 and GX962 speakers but now I'm just confused. My build sheet says 6 speakers but I count 7 - 3 in the dash (2 in the corners, 1 larger in the middle) and 1 in each door for 4 more. That's 7! So what size is that middle speaker or is it just empty space under the grill. Thanks.

 

[ksn240]

I was getting ready to get some JBL GX302 and GX962 speakers but now I'm just confused. My build sheet says 6 speakers but I count 7 - 3 in the dash (2 in the corners, 1 larger in the middle) and 1 in each door for 4 more. That's 7! So what size is that middle speaker or is it just empty space under the grill. Thanks.

If you don't have the Alpine system, the center of the dash has nothing there, so you would just have 6 speakers.

 

[wildh24]

You can you just play a test tone through the speaker and check voltage at the terminals. You need the right type of meter to measure AC voltage. Positive to positive you get a positive voltage reading if you have the leads for the meter reversed ie positive probe touching the ground terminal most meters will read a negative voltage. All my fluke meters work this way. you just want to make sure you're playing a test tone appropriate for the speaker you're checking. I will say I haven't attempted this with car audio signal voltage for checking polarity because typically you already know which is which, but this is how the meters work with standard 60 hz ac voltage at breaker panels in a building but AC voltage is AC voltage as long as you have a clean sine wave, that's why you use a test tone generator and not music. Same method you would use for setting gain on an amplifier except you would have second clamp on meter measuring current as well. Here's a quick youtube video of a guy measuring power output on an amplifier, but instead of measuring voltage at the amp terminal you would measure it at the speaker terminal.

Ok. This makes sense to me since it's AC. I'll have to give this a try. For some reason I thought I tried this a long time ago and the trains were all off. But I can't say for certain I had it correct.