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Why still no MDS Disable 3rd party device?

RunsWithBeer

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. . .
Four running cylinders uses less fuel than eight, period.
. . .
When MDS is engaged it isn't using less fuel. The engine load is the same and the stoichiometric ratio for air to fuel has to remain the same for the load.

It's reducing the effective displacement, allowing the throttle body to open further to maintain the stoichiometric ratio. Opening the throttle body reduces the pumping losses, thus making the engine operate more efficiently. When it's acting as a full displacement engine but under light load it's like having to suck air through your teeth rather than opening your mouth. The more displacement it's sucking through that barely opened throttle body acts like a Jake brake on a diesel. It can't open the throttle body up without INCREASING fuel consumed for a given displacement. It's using the same amount of fuel when operating on 4 cylinders because it has to maintain that 14:1, air-to-fuel ratio. But it can stop breathing through its teeth so the engine is operating more efficiently which ultimately can save a bit of fuel.
 
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Drewster

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When MDS is engaged it isn't using less fuel. The engine load is the same and the stoichiometric ratio for air to fuel has to remain the same for the load.

It's reducing the effective displacement, allowing the throttle body to open further to maintain the stoichiometric ratio. Opening the throttle body reduces the pumping losses, thus making the engine operate more efficiently. When it's acting as a full displacement engine but under light load it's like having to suck air through your teeth rather than opening your mouth. The more displacement it's sucking through that barely opened throttle body acts like a Jake brake on a diesel. It can't open the throttle body up without INCREASING fuel consumed for a given displacement. It's using the same amount of fuel when operating on 4 cylinders because it has to maintain that 14:1, air-to-fuel ratio. But it can stop breathing through its teeth so the engine is operating more efficiently which ultimately can save a bit of fuel.

The air fuel ratio is indeed the same... but it's using less fuel. Sorry, but your analogy is bogus - even if it sounds good in your head. I see your simple high school analogy, and raise you an engineering degree and years of experience building and tuning engines.

Air fuel ratio (AFR) just says how many air molecules are being consumed for every molecule of fuel. An AFR of 14.7 with gasoline means you're running at the stoichiometric ratio for gasoline - the chemical reaction has *exactly* the amount of air it needs to burn off that fuel no more (lean), no less (rich). That ratio is *not* the amount of fuel (grams/ second) going into a *changing* (MDS) volume of air.

The ratio of fuel to is *not* the only factor in the overall consumption of your engine as you drive - a one cylinder motorcycle can run at 14.7 next to a 4 cylinder car running at 14.7, next to a V8 truck running 14.7 at the same speed, but they're all obviously burning different amounts of fuel. Even if we take your simplistic (and broken) analogy, you *can* use less fuel because the engine was previously filling up 8 cylinders at a 14.7:1 AFR, and now it's filling up 4 cylinders at a 14.7:1 AFR - the *ratio* of air to fuel is unchanged, but you're filling up 2.85 liters of displacement with that air/ fuel mixture rather than 5.7... make sense?

In other words, the same super-simplistic V8 engine is now only filling 173.5 cc's with that same 14:1 AFR mixture rather than 347, because half the valves aren't even opening. By your own analogy, switching on MDS should actually *double* efficiency and halve the power.

The catch is that that's obviously now how things work. Anyone with an MDS truck can watch it kick on and see the MPG gauge go up by ~9-12%, not double. That's because the engine's actual consumption, or Brake-Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) which is a function of fuel consumption (grams per second) and engine power, varies with engine temperature, air temperature, engine load, and RPM - AFR is just how rich or lean you are. As you can see in this random example, the BSFC of an engine is very complex based on a lot of factors - it's not at all a linear relationship.
BSFC-map-of-the-engine-7-BSFC-brake-specific-fuel-consumption-rpm-r-min-Max-maximum.png

If you look at tables in a modern ECU, these are now mapped in 3D tables - the ECU knows *exactly* where it is most efficient, and operates accordingly. The days of super simple engines that operate based solely on what a mechanical throttle cable does are *long* gone.. and that's a good thing.

When you kick on MDS, the engine is now consuming half the air (grams/ second) and requires half the fuel (grams/ second of fuel at 14:1 AFR).. but power output is less than half because the engine now has 4 pistons worth of drag to worry about. To counteract this, they're actually *opening* the throttle and running those 4 cylinders at high loads where they're more efficient. Torque output is similar (so it's not like you just lifted off the throttle), but those 4 cylinders are operating much more efficiently. It's also what makes it a real challenge to make MDS feel smooth. I'm not a big GM guy, but this is *exactly* what GM's 2.7 (four cylinder!) truck does 100% of the time to maximize torque and efficiency at every operating scenario. Jason Cammisa has a great article about how that truck does the exact same thing but in spades:

TL;DR AFR is only a part of what's going on - enabling MDS will net you at least 9% better fuel economy if you just enable it and quit piecing high school science into an analogy that doesn't even work in real life
 
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Buz

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...enabling MDS will net you at least 9% better fuel economy if you just enable it......
Per tank or per the time MDS engaged? If it's the latter then I'm guessing overall MPG improvement will typically be less than 9%.
 

Drewster

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Per tank or per the time MDS engaged? If it's the latter then I'm guessing overall MPG improvement will typically be less than 9%.
Per time MDS is engaged.

It definitely comes down to how you drive. If the guy one page back is *actually* getting 25mpg, it means he's constantly feathering the throttle, coasting to stops, etc. That kind of driving style might actually see a near 9% improvement because the majority of your driving is in the range where MDS will benefit you.

If you floor it everywhere, then MDS is never going to engage, so you'll see a net 0% improvement from enabling MDS
 

silver billet

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Imagine how many more miles per gallon you would get if you had MDS enabled. Your commute and driving style allow you to get 25MPG - if you apply that same scenario but use MDS, the car will get *more* efficient, not less.

Four running cylinders uses less fuel than eight, period. If you're *actually* altering your driving enough to eek out 25MPG, allowing MDS to engage would get you even more since that means you're already operating in low load scenarios where MDS is designed to shine.

I'm not arguing against you, I believe MDS could save a bit more.

But thinking it through, the only time MDS is active in my truck was when it was pretty much idling/coasting, so it's already using next to nothing in terms of gas. Using a little less than "next to nothing" is "slightly less than next to nothing", so while they're may be some savings, I think the real benefit is for Ram's corporate MPG rating rather than the customer. I don't blame Ram, but neither do I want to put up with a twitchy truck just to save $30 a year on gas. I love having that v8 always on, always there, always waiting. No jerk, just smooth and raw power.
 

RunsWithBeer

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The air fuel ratio is indeed the same... but it's using less fuel. Sorry, but your analogy is bogus - even if it sounds good in your head. I see your simple high school analogy, and raise you an engineering degree and years of experience building and tuning engines.

Air fuel ratio (AFR) just says how many air molecules are being consumed for every molecule of fuel. An AFR of 14.7 with gasoline means you're running at the stoichiometric ratio for gasoline - the chemical reaction has *exactly* the amount of air it needs to burn off that fuel no more (lean), no less (rich). That ratio is *not* the amount of fuel (grams/ second) going into a *changing* (MDS) volume of air.

The ratio of fuel to is *not* the only factor in the overall consumption of your engine as you drive - a one cylinder motorcycle can run at 14.7 next to a 4 cylinder car running at 14.7, next to a V8 truck running 14.7 at the same speed, but they're all obviously burning different amounts of fuel. Even if we take your simplistic (and broken) analogy, you *can* use less fuel because the engine was previously filling up 8 cylinders at a 14.7:1 AFR, and now it's filling up 4 cylinders at a 14.7:1 AFR - the *ratio* of air to fuel is unchanged, but you're filling up 2.85 liters of displacement with that air/ fuel mixture rather than 5.7... make sense?

In other words, the same super-simplistic V8 engine is now only filling 173.5 cc's with that same 14:1 AFR mixture rather than 347, because half the valves aren't even opening. By your own analogy, switching on MDS should actually *double* efficiency and halve the power.

The catch is that that's obviously now how things work. Anyone with an MDS truck can watch it kick on and see the MPG gauge go up by ~9-12%, not double. That's because the engine's actual consumption, or Brake-Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) which is a function of fuel consumption (grams per second) and engine power, varies with engine temperature, air temperature, engine load, and RPM - AFR is just how rich or lean you are. As you can see in this random example, the BSFC of an engine is very complex based on a lot of factors - it's not at all a linear relationship.
BSFC-map-of-the-engine-7-BSFC-brake-specific-fuel-consumption-rpm-r-min-Max-maximum.png

If you look at tables in a modern ECU, these are now mapped in 3D tables - the ECU knows *exactly* where it is most efficient, and operates accordingly. The days of super simple engines that operate based solely on what a mechanical throttle cable does are *long* gone.. and that's a good thing.

When you kick on MDS, the engine is now consuming half the air (grams/ second) and requires half the fuel (grams/ second of fuel at 14:1 AFR).. but power output is less than half because the engine now has 4 pistons worth of drag to worry about. To counteract this, they're actually *opening* the throttle and running those 4 cylinders at high loads where they're more efficient. Torque output is similar (so it's not like you just lifted off the throttle), but those 4 cylinders are operating much more efficiently. It's also what makes it a real challenge to make MDS feel smooth. I'm not a big GM guy, but this is *exactly* what GM's 2.7 (four cylinder!) truck does 100% of the time to maximize torque and efficiency at every operating scenario. Jason Cammisa has a great article about how that truck does the exact same thing but in spades:

TL;DR AFR is only a part of what's going on - enabling MDS will net you at least 9% better fuel economy if you just enable it and quit piecing high school science into an analogy that doesn't even work in real life
Thanks for the detailed response. I am suitably humbled and shamed by your superior intellect.
 

iLikeTurtles

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I'm not arguing against you, I believe MDS could save a bit more.

But thinking it through, the only time MDS is active in my truck was when it was pretty much idling/coasting, so it's already using next to nothing in terms of gas. Using a little less than "next to nothing" is "slightly less than next to nothing", so while they're may be some savings, I think the real benefit is for Ram's corporate MPG rating rather than the customer. I don't blame Ram, but neither do I want to put up with a twitchy truck just to save $30 a year on gas. I love having that v8 always on, always there, always waiting. No jerk, just smooth and raw power.


I agree. I average 13.8-14.5mpg due to my terrain and travels. The moments of 4 cylinder lugging and stress paired with exhaust note and non-smooth transition to 8 cylinder with an abrupt downshift are not worth potentially 0.3-0.5mpg gain.

In the limited i would expect refinement (which it has about 90-95%) but that MDS needs additional tweaking, and by tweaking i mean getting a disablement feature.
 

WW2

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You will never see a permanent disable feature, at least not from FCA.....just like the Auto-Start Stop BS, it has to be on by default to be used in bogus CAFE calculations....I notice zero real world MPG improvements with MDS or Auto SS....or at least not enough to even notice....
 

Rickyrocket

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I thought using tow mode was how it was by passed,whats this other method being used?
 

Buz

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I have a device in the works, but will become a site supporter before advertising - it's currently in beta, so I'm hoping we release soon!
Are you able to provide a guestimate of when you think this could be ready?
 

gHiDoRa

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Very easy test, just turn both them off for the whole week and drive like you always drive.
 

TruckDriver

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Are you able to provide a guestimate of when you think this could be ready?

At the latest we're thinking a Christmas release - I'm thoroughly testing it on my personal vehicle because I can't imagine releasing anything with bugs; while I'm at it we've added two features at no cost and plan to make it a simple but robust tool. Thanks for pinging!
 

Buz

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At the latest we're thinking a Christmas release - I'm thoroughly testing it on my personal vehicle because I can't imagine releasing anything with bugs; while I'm at it we've added two features at no cost and plan to make it a simple but robust tool. Thanks for pinging!
Can't wait. Thank you.
 

maw3

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Respectfully have to disagree with this statement.
I drive with a light foot on the gas most of the time. I can feel when the engine is struggling to maintain MDS, and then when it suddenly pop's out of MDS mode. It's extremely noticeable if you're aware of the system and how it works. I would imagine people who don't much care for the intricacies of the modern engine wouldn't notice what was happening, but I am constantly reminded of the MDS system via my right foot, seat of my pants, and the sound/feel of 4 cylinders suddenly coming to life.
It's a great concept, but the reality is it makes the engine feel much less smooth than without it.
Thanks for explaining this Buz. I think this *might* be what I'm feeling, when I'm around 40mph/Eco/1500 rpm. I can't quite correlate it, but it kind of feels like (from driver POV) that the engine isn't getting enough gas/power, etc.
 

PMantle

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I'm not arguing against you, I believe MDS could save a bit more.

But thinking it through, the only time MDS is active in my truck was when it was pretty much idling/coasting, so it's already using next to nothing in terms of gas.
That's some strange driving. Mine is on a lot.
 

maw3

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I'm new to RAM and have a 1500 Laramie. Just bought it a few weeks ago. Was sold on how it drove/ride, comfort-level and tech. So far, I've been pretty happy, until I noticed what @Buz was describing, and I've been doing a lot or reading/research over the past few weeks on this and other forums. So, today, I went to drop my daughter off for practice (~10min drive away). Posted my previous post, re-read/read on this forum a little. Then went to pick her up after her practice was over. But, this time, I jumped in the truck, cranked it up, then hit the gear limit (-) button on the steering wheel -- which made the 8 come up on the dashboard -- and drove it the same route as I did to drop her off...and wow! What a difference. The throttle/slight vibration...which I thought might be due to rpm or speed, looks to actually be due to this MDS thing. The truck drove so smooth. In fact, coming from a previous car/SUV owner...it is so smooth that it literally feels like an car/SUV now. Yes, I'm a new truck guy. So thanks to all the great posts, advice, etc. from everyone. My question is....is it OK to do the gear limit/8 thing every time I drive it now? It's really nice. Thanks!
 
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Buz

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I'm new to RAM and have a 1500 Laramie. Just bought it a few weeks ago. Was sold on how it drove/ride, comfort-level and tech. So far, I've been pretty happy, until I noticed what @Buz was describing, and I've been doing a lot or reading/research over the past few weeks on this and other forums. So, today, I went to drop my daughter off for practice (~10min drive away). Posted my previous post, re-read/read on this forum a little. Then went to pick her up after her practice was over. But, this time, I jumped in the truck, cranked it up, then hit the gear limit (-) button on the steering wheel -- which made the 8 come up on the dashboard -- and drove it the same route as I did to drop her off...and wow! What a difference. The throttle/slight vibration...which I thought might be due to rpm or speed, looks to actually be due to this MDS thing. The truck drove so smooth. In fact, coming from a previous car/SUV owner...it is so smooth that it literally feels like an car/SUV now. Yes, I'm a new truck guy. So thanks to all the great posts, advice, etc. from everyone. My question is....is it OK to do the gear limit/8 thing every time I drive it now? It's really nice. Thanks!
Yes sir. This truck drives like a dream with MDS off. So buttery smooth at any speed/rpm.
 
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Richard320

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I'm new to RAM and have a 1500 Laramie. Just bought it a few weeks ago. Was sold on how it drove/ride, comfort-level and tech. So far, I've been pretty happy, until I noticed what @Buz was describing, and I've been doing a lot or reading/research over the past few weeks on this and other forums. So, today, I went to drop my daughter off for practice (~10min drive away). Posted my previous post, re-read/read on this forum a little. Then went to pick her up after her practice was over. But, this time, I jumped in the truck, cranked it up, then hit the gear limit (-) button on the steering wheel -- which made the 8 come up on the dashboard -- and drove it the same route as I did to drop her off...and wow! What a difference. The throttle/slight vibration...which I thought might be due to rpm or speed, looks to actually be due to this MDS thing. The truck drove so smooth. In fact, coming from a previous car/SUV owner...it is so smooth that it literally feels like an car/SUV now. Yes, I'm a new truck guy. So thanks to all the great posts, advice, etc. from everyone. My question is....is it OK to do the gear limit/8 thing every time I drive it now? It's really nice. Thanks!
It's fine.

Just so you know, my engine smoothed out and the mileage increased a lot after the first 4-5000 miles. You might just need to wait for things to break-in a bit more. I seldom shut my MDS off and if it weren't for enabling the ECO light, I'd never know it was engaging and disengaging
 

Runagun

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Damn, I'm the outlier it seems. I wish it would come on more. I rented a 2019 classic and I can get the eco mode on while cruising @ 75. I cant do that with my 2019 new style.
 

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