Why so much hate for MDS and auto stop/start?

[mmcbeat]

I just traded a 2019 Jeep Wrangler in on a 2021 Ram. My main complaint with the Jeep was ESS. The Jeep had two batteries, one for the starter and one for everything else. I drove much less than normal last year and the batteries wouldn’t stay charged. A big part of this was because during my short trips the ESS kicked in a lot. I was using more battery than the system could charge. And yeah, I could have turned off ESS every time I started the Jeep or got an aftermarket permanent switch but that didn’t make sense to me. At the end I used a battery tender but that was no solution. I went with the Ram standard 5.7, no ESS and I really like it. Super nice to stop at a light and the engine continues to run.

 

[TheMopars]

I only have MDS but wish I had both. The S/S system on the Ram is so seamless, better than any others I've felt ( I drive a lot of rental cars for work )and the etorque would nice for the city driving and traffic here. I bought my truck off the lot and the deal was so good ($50k msrp, $34.5 with rebates and discount) I decided I'd never make up the difference going with a different truck only owning it for 4-5 years.
As far as Chrysler they love these systems, cheap technology to help with their CAFE fines since they never hit the target mileage numbers. The mileage improvement is enough to offset the costs vs CAFE fines or they wouldn't bother. For the most recent year I saw (2018) FCA paid close to 80 million in fines for not meeting the standards. But they're also not the only ones.

 

[Dusty1948]

The only vehicle I've ever driven with Start/Stop was a golf card.

This is my third Ram with MDS. Works great and never been an issue on any Rams that I've owned.

Best regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33 gallon fuel tank, factory dual exhaust, 18” wheels. Build date: 03 June 2018. Now at: 050657 miles.

 

[sd2134]

I leave my start/stop and MDS active full time. I don't have a problem with either system. I don't notice the MDS exhaust issues because I am older and pay more attention to the MP3s on the Alpine system. Had a "66 SS Chevelle 396 with headers and glass packs back in the day. Times have changed for me, to each their own, no right or wrong.

 

[rightushook]

I opted for non etorque or auto ss as I'm not a fan of either. I dislike MDS and would prefer a standard v8 with power always ready. Just more bs added that will likely decrease reliability and increase repair cost. Same thing with etorque and auto start stop. However you could say the same for all the other fancy gizmos in the truck.

has there been any issues of people disabling MDS via tune or gear shifter? If I knew it was safe long term I'd pay to have it turned off permanently.

 

[BowDown]

I took a Limited home for the Mrs. to look over mainly because we were undecided on MFT.

Our neighborhood is off a busy road with no stop light.

There was enough of a delay hitting the gas that made it the left turn very uneasy. It re-starts fast, just not fast enough to comfortably beat oncoming traffic.

In 16k miles I've never experienced this to be a problem or even been able getvthe system to lag. Even driving with two feet the truck restarts instantaneously.
This is BS imo

 

[BowDown]

Yes. MDS has proven to cause problems in virtually every engine on which it is implemented. There is a reason why Ford and Toyota have avoided it. Auto start/stop is just a "hack", not a real solution, to try to gain 1mpg. Internal combustion engines are not designed to shut off, restart, shut off, restart, etc. Hearing the starter spin up at every stop is annoying. The retail cost of an OEM alternator for a non-eTorque engine is $479. The retail cost of an eTorque generator is $1,235 plus $2,250 for the 48V battery. That's a difference of $3,006 for parts alone. Ram is clearly subsidizing the initial cost (i.e. getting a higher profit margin on the non-eTorque models) since the "upgrade" cost on the window sticker is only $200.

That said, my 4 day-old Big Horn has eTorque. I did not plan on getting it, but I could not find a truck I wanted (at the price I wanted) without it. The start/stop is the best on the market. Restarting the engine does not use the starter motor. But clearly no other manufacturer dedicates an additional $3k of parts to get auto start/stop. I would also be concerned about parts availability in 10 years as this is kind of an oddball system. However, I only plan to keep the truck 3 years so I'm not worried about it. In short, I like the way eTorque works, especially if it actually saves the advertising 2mpg in the city. But I'd be concerned about long-term reliability and cost if I planned to keep the truck past the 8yr/80k mile warranty on the eTorque system.

Regarding the MDS, I can definitely feel when it engages on the highway. There is a mild shudder if you put any pressure on the accelerator. This is when an aftermarket exhaust system would sound like shyte. You won't notice it if you're just coasting. So far it doesn't bother me. If it does, I'll just start engaging the gear limit (to 8) every time I start the car.

MDS causes problems such as what, how?
The starter doesn't restart the engine, I don't know what you're hearing because the etorque motor doesn't make a noise.
How are ICE not designed to shut off, restart, shut off, restart? Key turns literally do the same things multiple times a day.
The only thing it feel when MDS enables is a mild mild vibration in the throttle pedal, doesn't bother me a bit

Toyota and Ford don't use autostart stop tech?

Toyota has introduced a new Toyota technology on select Toyota models in North America: the Stop & Start Engine System. Available on Toyota Highlander V6 and Toyota RAV4 LE AWD models, this drivetrain technology automatically stops your vehicle’s engine when you’re stopped, and then it starts your engine when you begin moving again.

Explore the Stop & Start Engine System | Marietta Toyota

Visit Marietta Toyota to learn more about the Stop & Start Engine System and other Toyota engine technologies.

www.mariettatoyota.com

Ford autostart stop tech

 

[BowDown]

The amount of misinformation passed off as fact on message boards is astounding

 

[Ramjack]

The starter isn’t used in stop/start operations. Many people like hearing the HEMI rumble

Yes, I said that.

 

[mikeru82]

Problems such as what, how?
The starter doesn't restart the engine, I don't know what you're hearing because the etorque motor doesn't make a noise.
How are ICE not designed to shut off, restart, shut off, restart? Key turns literally do the same things multiple times a day.
The only thing it feel when MDS enables is a mild mild vibration in the throttle pedal, doesn't bother me a bit

Toyota and Ford don't use autostart stop tech?

Explore the Stop & Start Engine System | Marietta Toyota

Visit Marietta Toyota to learn more about the Stop & Start Engine System and other Toyota engine technologies.

www.mariettatoyota.com

Ford autostart stop tech

In the message you quoted he was talking about the MDS causing problems, not the stop/start system. But I'm also curious to hear what kind of known problems MDS causes.

Edit: Ignore my first statement above. I see you corrected your post.

 

[BowDown]

In the message you quoted he was talking about the MDS causing problems, not the stop/start system. But I'm also curious to hear what kind of known problems MDS causes.

Edit: Ignore my first statement above. I see you corrected your post.

I'm asking about the MDS problems

 

[Scap]

MDS has proven to cause problems in virtually every engine on which it is implemented. There is a reason why Ford and Toyota have avoided it.

Ford has it on the '21 5.0 now.

 

[BowDown]

Yes, I said that.

Ramjack said:
Hearing the starter spin up at every stop is annoying.

 

[BowDown]

Ford has it on the '21 5.0 now.

It's been on other Ford vehicles as well and Toyota

 

[Ramjack]

MDS causes problems such as what, how?
The starter doesn't restart the engine, I don't know what you're hearing because the etorque motor doesn't make a noise.
How are ICE not designed to shut off, restart, shut off, restart? Key turns literally do the same things multiple times a day.
The only thing it feel when MDS enables is a mild mild vibration in the throttle pedal, doesn't bother me a bit

Toyota and Ford don't use autostart stop tech?

Explore the Stop & Start Engine System | Marietta Toyota

Visit Marietta Toyota to learn more about the Stop & Start Engine System and other Toyota engine technologies.

www.mariettatoyota.com

Ford autostart stop tech

1. Cylinder deactivation has been causing engine problems across virtually all brands adopting the technology for many years.
2. I specifically said the eTorque system does not use the starter.
3. ICE shutting off, restarting several time a day is not the same as doing it 5-10x as much.
4. I said Toyota and Ford don't use cylinder deactivation. Ford is just now starting to use it on the F-150 V8. I did not say they don't use start/stop, although Toyota is now just starting to adopt start/stop. There is a reason they delayed adopting it.

 

[Ramjack]

I was talking about non-eTorque systems. I specifically praised the eTorque system for being seamless.

 

[BowDown]

1. Cylinder deactivation has been causing engine problems across virtually all brands adopting the technology for many years.
2. I specifically said the eTorque system does not use the starter.
3. ICE shutting off, restarting several time a day is not the same as doing it 5-10x as much.
4. I said Toyota and Ford don't use cylinder deactivation. Ford is just now starting to use it on the F-150 V8. I did not say they don't use start/stop, although Toyota is now just starting to adopt start/stop. There is a reason they delayed adopting it.

For the purposes of this conversation, we were specifically speaking about the Ram etorque system, not everyone else's. The comment regarding the starter motor noise wasn’t germane to the conversation.

No it hasn't, there's been intermittent lifter failure but not widespread nor common.

ICE restarting multiple times a day is still ICE restarting, specifically what issues does this cause?

Toyota lacked a smooth operating system, that was the delay.
Toyota primarily uses 4 cylinder engines, no use for cylinder deactivation.

And no, the gd Germans got nothin' to do with it.

 

[IvoryHemi]

In 16k miles I've never experienced this to be a problem or even been able getvthe system to lag. Even driving with two feet the truck restarts instantaneously.
This is BS imo

No BS.

It’s not the restart itself, it was the time from restart to merge at 50 mph.

 

[BowDown]

No BS.

It’s not the restart itself, it was the time from restart to merge at 50 mph.

In 16k miles I've never found this to even hint at being an issue.
I can go from autostart/stop off to 50 mph effortlessly.

Even driving with 2 feet, the engine is instantly running before I can completely lift off the brake and the slightest touch of the throttle, the engine is alive.
It's a non issue unless the truck you drove was malfunctioning

 

[SpeedyV]

I was talking about non-eTorque systems. I specifically praised the eTorque system for being seamless.

You did, if readers got that far. You didn’t exclude eTorque in your first paragraph, so it sounded (at first pass) like an inaccurate generalization.