REV vs Ramcharger - who would buy a REV?

[StuartV]

I wonder how towing will work. As in, you have gobs of torque with a fully charged battery plant. It will get depleted pretty quick if you are towing something like a camper.
So the V6 kicks in to charge the batteries, but do you lose some of your towing capacity until the batteries charge to a certain level?

Guess we won't know until it's tested.

From what I've read/seen, I think the towing will be just fine unless maybe you are towing really heavy and going uphill the whole time.

I mean, when towing now, how much of the time are you running at full throttle? Very little.

My expectation is that all that driving while towing where you are actually only using a modest amount of throttle is the time when the generator will be catching the battery back up to the charge level that you need for those times when you are really using the available power.

E.g. you tow up a long grade and the batteries are getting sucked down the whole way, even with the generator running at max to try and keep up. But then, as soon as you get to a flat or start down a grade, then the generator keeps running and the battery gets charged back up and ready for the next uphill grade.

So, you have all the power/torque of the battery pack/electric motors available basically all the time. Except, potentially in some real worst-case scenarios.

 

[Darksteel165]

It's not an EV? You are aware you could drive it for the life of the truck without ever putting gas in it, right?

And get the range of a current generation Nissan leaf.

20 MPG is the math of 690 mile range and 27 gallon tank. 145 mile electric range means 545 miles on gas. 545 miles divided by 27 gallons gives 20.2 MPG. So, if you never plug it in, and you run it in a mode that does not charge the battery (which I think is an operating mode it is supposed to have), you should get 20 MPG. On paper.

You can't run it on gas in a mode that does not charge the battery, the gas engine has no way to propel the truck so it would need to be charging it, that is why I wonder if regen counts the 20mpg.
Also because of the 145 mile starting battery range these MPG figures might be based upon a full tank of gas and charge of 145 miles you get 20 mpg over the 690 mile range which is just under 16 mpg (not counting the price of the 145 mile battery charge)

That would mean if you don't charge up every night you could get much worse then 20 mpg, around 15.7 mpg if you never plug the truck in which sounds more realistic for all that weight on a v6 "generator"

We're all eager to see pricing. My guess is that the Ramcharger "option" (if you will) will not be more than $10K over a base model of the equivalent trim. In other words, I kind of expect to see a Big Horn Ramcharger that is not really cost prohibitive. I.e. maybe $10K more than a base Big Horn. Maybe there will even be a Tradesman Ramcharger.

But, that is all just pure speculation.

I would like to think that, but batteries are not cheap nor is the technology for them. They are still putting in an engine, and EVs alone are more expensive then their ICE counterparts. I think this could be more expensive then whatever the REV is going to be charged for because there are a lot more moving parts. No way to know until it comes out.

The marketing always puts things in the best possible light and always needs to be taken with a grain of salt, FCA needs a lot more then a single grain imo.

I could care less about EVs, it would be fun to own but not practical, as a secondary car or something sure.
I don't care that EVs exist, or the political crap around it, I just care about what affects me and there are no regulations (currently) that directly affect what I drive or buy with my own money.
I don't even get charged a "gas guzzler tax" on my terrible V8 because it's a truck not a car.

This Ramcharger sounds a million times better then the proposed REV, but it's very differnet then everything else on the market and I don't see FCA getting ANY wins lately computer to the other manufacturers but hopefully this can prove me wrong. I would be shocked if FCA was the first for some kind of meaningful technology win.

 

[habu987]

We're all eager to see pricing. My guess is that the Ramcharger "option" (if you will) will not be more than $10K over a base model of the equivalent trim. In other words, I kind of expect to see a Big Horn Ramcharger that is not really cost prohibitive. I.e. maybe $10K more than a base Big Horn. Maybe there will even be a Tradesman Ramcharger.

But, that is all just pure speculation.

My guess is that this will be a minimum of a $15k upcharge over the equivalent 3.6 trim. Just in terms of cost to manufacture, the battery is about $9k and the motors are likely $2-3k apiece, plus however much the generator and other assorted electrical components cost.

Take away the transmission and other ICE components not needed here and my guesstimate is that the cost to Ram is in the general vicinity of $10k over the cost of an equivalent 3.6 to produce. Unless Ram is planning to take a margin hit, I'm estimating a net ~$15k upcharge if it costs $10k more to produce.

I don't think we'll know the actual cost to produce if/until one of the teardown shops gets ahold of a Ramcharger and publishes their findings for those of us in the general public to read.

 

[HSKR R/T]

My guess is that this will be a minimum of a $15k upcharge over the equivalent 3.6 trim. Just in terms of cost to manufacture, the battery is about $9k and the motors are likely $2-3k apiece, plus however much the generator and other assorted electrical components cost.

Take away the transmission and other ICE components not needed here and my guesstimate is that the cost to Ram is in the general vicinity of $10k over the cost of an equivalent 3.6 to produce. Unless Ram is planning to take a margin hit, I'm estimating a net ~$15k upcharge if it costs $10k more to produce.

I don't think we'll know the actual cost to produce if/until one of the teardown shops gets ahold of a Ramcharger and publishes their findings for those of us in the general public to read.

This isnt really comparable to a NA V6. It's closer to the Hemi as far as towing and performances, so you should really base your price comparison to a Hemi powered Ramz not the base model V6

 

[habu987]

This isnt really comparable to a NA V6. It's closer to the Hemi as far as towing and performances, so you should really base your price comparison to a Hemi powered Ramz not the base model V6

I'm referring to the Pentastar because it's already an engine option...

 

[StuartV]

And get the range of a current generation Nissan leaf.


You can't run it on gas in a mode that does not charge the battery, the gas engine has no way to propel the truck so it would need to be charging it, that is why I wonder if regen counts the 20mpg.
Also because of the 145 mile starting battery range these MPG figures might be based upon a full tank of gas and charge of 145 miles you get 20 mpg over the 690 mile range which is just under 16 mpg (not counting the price of the 145 mile battery charge)

That would mean if you don't charge up every night you could get much worse then 20 mpg, around 15.7 mpg if you never plug the truck in which sounds more realistic for all that weight on a v6 "generator"

I believe that is all just, well, incorrect.

First, it has been reported in several places that under certain circumstances the gas generator can power the electric motors directly. So, I'm not sure you have any basis to say that it doesn't have a mode that runs the engine and does not charge the battery. It certainly won't be charging when you're driving with the battery Full and the interview with the engineer mentioned a mode that you can put it in to drive without using the battery. Something about saving the battery for arriving at a destination that is "electric only".

They have said it has 145 miles on electric alone and 690 miles total. That means 545 miles on gas alone. They've also said it has a 27 gallon tank.

545 miles from 27 gallons gives 20 MPG. 545 / 27 = 20.2.

I do not follow where you are coming up with a 16 MPG number. 16 MPG * 27 gallons is 432 miles. Where is a number of 432 miles coming from?

If you figure eMPG, then 690 / 27 = 25.6 MPG.

20.2 MPG on gas alone.
25.6 eMPG using a full battery and full gas tank combined.

I believe the only way you'd get worse than 20 MPG is if you start with a full gas tank and an empty battery and you let the gas generator charge the battery while you drive. Then, yes, you would get less than 545 miles out of your 27 gallons of gas. But, you'd have some amount of battery (probably quite a lot, actually) to use once the gas runs out.

All of this notwithstanding RAM's (and every other manufacturer, in MY experience) penchant for claiming way better than they produce, of course.

 

[StuartV]

This isnt really comparable to a NA V6. It's closer to the Hemi as far as towing and performances, so you should really base your price comparison to a Hemi powered Ramz not the base model V6

He was responding to my post. My post compared it to a V6 because that's how those things are always done.

We always talk about the amount of the upcharge to upgrade from a Pentastar to a Hemi, or to an Eco Diesel.

Particularly when you are talking about things being cost prohibitive, so you are looking at lower trim levels that don't come with a Hemi as standard (which IS what I was talking about).

Will the Ramcharger be cost prohibitive?

Well, what can one buy a RAM 1500 for? That means, what is the cost of a Tradesman or maybe a Big Horn? (which come standard with a V6) And then, how much more will it cost to get the Ramcharger version of that?

On the face of it, it might seem unlikely that someone looking at a Tradesman or Big Horn would be willing or able to spend the extra for a Ramcharger. But, some people only ever drive short distances in a day. Those people might actually break even on a Ramcharger somewhat quickly, if they never have to actually buy gas.

So, comparing the cost of a Ramcharger versus a V6 makes perfect sense, to me.

And, let's not forget one other aspect of the Ramcharger - killer performance! It's definitely worth extra to me to have a 4.4 second 0-to-60.

Buying a Ramcharger is not ONLY about saving money on fuel.

 

[JJRamTX]

No question... Ram Charger! Tow, trip, and fuel independence. Does it all and I already have a 50 Amp Charger set up at home for my diesel pusher to plug into.

 

[StuartV]

Ramcharger Modes: I am looking forward to more details on this.

But, from what I've read and seen so far, my understanding is that there are at least 3 modes and those 3 boil down to these. I'm actually listing 4 modes, because I suspect that it will offer some version of all these.

- Gas only - it will use the gas engine all the time and preserve the battery charge as close to 100% (or whatever its current level is) as it can. The TFL interview with the Stellantis engineer mentioned "zones" in Europe where only electric vehicles would be allowed. You might use this mode to get to that "zone", so you preserve all your battery for that. Then, once you are in that "zone" you switch to "electric only" mode.

- Electric only - it will use only battery until the battery is empty. Perfect for daily driving where you know you aren't go to run out of battery before you plug it back in to charge.

- Auto - it will use the battery until the charge level gets to some point - let's just speculate that it's 20% - where it then starts running the gas generator to charge the battery back up to some other predetermined point - let's speculate that that is 50%. That mode will let you drive around mostly on battery, but it will ensure that you never completely run out of battery unless you also run out of gas. And that ensures that, at the end of the day, you can plug it in to charge and you used a minimal amount of gas that day. You may have used some gas, but at least you didn't use enough to fully charge the battery (as that is the most expensive option for charging your battery).

- Towing - it would work like "Auto" except that the battery thresholds will be higher. For example, it would only let the battery drop to 50% before it starts running to charge the battery back up, and then stops running when the battery is at 80%. This mode ensures that there is more battery available at all times, to handle situations where you are towing something really heavy up a long grade and the gas generator cannot keep up with the drain on the battery during that time. This mode might also be more aggressive in how it runs the generator to recharge. I.e. it might run the generator harder, being less fuel efficient, than how Auto mode would work to run the generator.

 

[StuartV]

All that said, I started this thread to see if anybody would say they would still buy a REV, not a Ramcharger.

So far, I think maybe 2 people have said that, basically, they don't drive their trucks much nor very far at a time, and so they would still prefer a REV (though I'm not at all sure why).

So, again, I ask would any of you buy a REV instead of a Ramcharger? If so, why?

I think the Ramcharger pretty much kills the REV.

If you don't drive very many miles, well, then, is the Ramcharger's 145 miles not enough? If it IS enough, why buy a REV?

I just can't see any real scenario where a REV would be preferable.

Well, except if there are people who regularly drive more than 145 miles in a day, but pretty much always less than 500. And they aren't towing anything. For that specific slice of the population, I guess a REV would allow them to never have to buy gas and also not be worried about finding chargers and taking time out of their day to wait on them. But, I think that is very few people. Very, very few. And how many of those wouldn't be just as well or better off with a Tesla or some other car EV?

If they do actually roll out the REV, I think they will sell FAR fewer of them than Ford has sold of the F150 Lightning. Like 10% or less the number of Lightnings. Most people only bought the Lightning because nothing like the Ramcharger was available, but they really wanted electric.

 

[Grape_Ape]

I think they may delay the REV indefinitely.

I still think the RamCharger could be a limited time deal (10-15yrs) while the EV world matures. This perfectly solved the largest flaws of pure EVs while giving people something they're mostly familiar with. Toyota is teasing 600+ mile batteries, the govt is shelling out millions to subsidize the infrastructure, and technology will continue to advance as technology does.

If we get a EV truck with similar performance, 600 mile range unloaded/300 mile range loaded and with let's say 75% battery charge in 30 mins - I think you've got a winner. But we are a ways away from that.

This will be more expensive than the ICE trucks naturally but should not be as expensive as the REV. I am especially happy they are allowing it in all trim levels as well.

 

[theblet]

I think they may delay the REV indefinitely.

I still think the RamCharger could be a limited time deal (10-15yrs) while the EV world matures. This perfectly solved the largest flaws of pure EVs while giving people something they're mostly familiar with. Toyota is teasing 600+ mile batteries, the govt is shelling out millions to subsidize the infrastructure, and technology will continue to advance as technology does.

If we get a EV truck with similar performance, 600 mile range unloaded/300 mile range loaded and with let's say 75% battery charge in 30 mins - I think you've got a winner. But we are a ways away from that.

This will be more expensive than the ICE trucks naturally but should not be as expensive as the REV. I am especially happy they are allowing it in all trim levels as well.

I like the concept of the ram charger. It just doesn’t make sense to spend zillions of tax payer money to overhaul everything from utilities to the vehicles we drive, when it isn’t really helping carbon emissions. It just relocates the emissions. A zero tailpipe emission vehicle isn’t a zero emission vehicle. Some are actually worse for the environment due to the manufacturing process and the fact that most charge them with fossil fuels.

So I don’t think I’ll ever be sold on a true EV. Maybe a hybrid like the ram charger……maybe.

 

[HSKR R/T]

I like the concept of the ram charger. It just doesn’t make sense to spend zillions of tax payer money to overhaul everything from utilities to the vehicles we drive, when it isn’t really helping carbon emissions. It just relocates the emissions. A zero tailpipe emission vehicle isn’t a zero emission vehicle. Some are actually worse for the environment due to the manufacturing process and the fact that most charge them with fossil fuels.

So I don’t think I’ll ever be sold on a true EV. Maybe a hybrid like the ram charger……maybe.

You realize they have determined that oil isnt actually a "fossil fuel". It doesn't come from decomposing dinosaurs

 

[theblet]

You realize they have determined that oil isnt actually a "fossil fuel". It doesn't come from decomposing dinosaurs

I know that. Doesn’t seem that the green gods know.

 

[Dewey]

The only people the Ramcharger doesn't sound like a good deal to are the V8 purists, who need the sound to feel macho, and those making excuses to not like it because it's the bad EV that the government is pushing on everyone. Even if there wasn't a government push for green power and EV, this truck should be a dream for anyone that tows heavier loads, for a half ton truck, like travel trailers. Can you imagine driving to your campgrounds, setting up camp, using your truck as your generator, then driving home. You wouldn't need a separate, big, noisy generator. If it's just a weekend, could probably do the whole weekend with the camper on just the battery power from the truck.

Real camping doesn’t require electricity. I’ll take my macho V8 and sleep in the wild under the stars with all the wolves, bear and mountain lions.

 

[Trooper4]

And get the range of a current generation Nissan leaf.


You can't run it on gas in a mode that does not charge the battery, the gas engine has no way to propel the truck so it would need to be charging it, that is why I wonder if regen counts the 20mpg.
Also because of the 145 mile starting battery range these MPG figures might be based upon a full tank of gas and charge of 145 miles you get 20 mpg over the 690 mile range which is just under 16 mpg (not counting the price of the 145 mile battery charge)

That would mean if you don't charge up every night you could get much worse then 20 mpg, around 15.7 mpg if you never plug the truck in which sounds more realistic for all that weight on a v6 "generator"



I would like to think that, but batteries are not cheap nor is the technology for them. They are still putting in an engine, and EVs alone are more expensive then their ICE counterparts. I think this could be more expensive then whatever the REV is going to be charged for because there are a lot more moving parts. No way to know until it comes out.

The marketing always puts things in the best possible light and always needs to be taken with a grain of salt, FCA needs a lot more then a single grain imo.

I could care less about EVs, it would be fun to own but not practical, as a secondary car or something sure.
I don't care that EVs exist, or the political crap around it, I just care about what affects me and there are no regulations (currently) that directly affect what I drive or buy with my own money.
I don't even get charged a "gas guzzler tax" on my terrible V8 because it's a truck not a car.

This Ramcharger sounds a million times better then the proposed REV, but it's very differnet then everything else on the market and I don't see FCA getting ANY wins lately computer to the other manufacturers but hopefully this can prove me wrong. I would be shocked if FCA was the first for some kind of meaningful technology win.

Don't understand where you get your MPG numbers. When figuring numbers for a "Semi-Hybrid" type system the MPG has to be figured on an overall average. An unloaded average for the truck, with 27 gal tank and EV miles combine to a total of 690 miles, giving it a one time average of 25+ MPG. As EV only short trips increase, the average goes up. As long trip mileage increases MPG decreases. My Prius is mostly shorter trips with the occasional trip using up the battery and relying on gas, but I still maintain an average of 150+ MPG on a vehicle that only gets 30 MPG on gas. For some the MPG will be great, and others not so much. It will either work for you or it wont. If it doesn't, then don't buy it.

 

[Grape_Ape]

I like the concept of the ram charger. It just doesn’t make sense to spend zillions of tax payer money to overhaul everything from utilities to the vehicles we drive, when it isn’t really helping carbon emissions. It just relocates the emissions. A zero tailpipe emission vehicle isn’t a zero emission vehicle. Some are actually worse for the environment due to the manufacturing process and the fact that most charge them with fossil fuels.

So I don’t think I’ll ever be sold on a true EV. Maybe a hybrid like the ram charger……maybe.

I'm pro-ev strictly from a performance standpoint. Our '24 crv is a hybrid but it's an awesome little car that can do pure EV for a few things.

I fully recognize the govt and corps are pushing EVs down our throats. I do not like that part. So all my predictions aren't necessarily based on what I'd like to see. Just me taking the hand we're being dealt and thinking about where it will go.

 

[silver billet]

The only people the Ramcharger doesn't sound like a good deal to are the V8 purists, who need the sound to feel macho, and those making excuses to not like it because it's the bad EV that the government is pushing on everyone.

You write some inflammatory content for being a mod, normally I'd have blocked you by now but you being a mod, the site doesn't support that feature. So here we are.

There is nothing wrong with appreciating a good v8, and preferring that above all else. Feeling "macho" is one possibility, there are others, such as, liking the sound, cheaper to own/maintain than this charger, easier to maintain and so on. We all know the cost of this truck is going to be at least 20k more than a basic work truck with a hemi. You'll never save money owning this, if you want the cheapest truck that "gets the job done" for 20+ years of ownership.

Even if there wasn't a government push for green power and EV, this truck should be a dream for anyone that tows heavier loads, for a half ton truck, like travel trailers.

The charger should definitely tow nicer, no question. The thing is, a truck has to be looked at "as a complete package". My truck already tows well, though I'll never turn down more (v8) power it's not some desperately pathetic thing that can't tow, so at that point since it meets my towing needs other criteria come into play.

Can you imagine driving to your campgrounds, setting up camp, using your truck as your generator, then driving home.

No I can't. My trailer plugs in, and eventually I'll be adding solar. I won't use generators, I can appreciate the onboard power as an idea and can see how useful that is to some, but I've never actually had a need for it.

You wouldn't need a separate, big, noisy generator. If it's just a weekend, could probably do the whole weekend with the camper on just the battery power from the truck.

Again, different needs. Perhaps you need to broaden your mind a little.

I'm certainly not putting down the charger, of all the EV trucks on the market to date, this is the one I'd purchase if price was removed from the equation. But it's also not my first choice, that would be my truck with the 6.4 SRT or any other v8 in the area of 500 hp.

 

[Darksteel165]

Don't understand where you get your MPG numbers. When figuring numbers for a "Semi-Hybrid" type system the MPG has to be figured on an overall average. An unloaded average for the truck, with 27 gal tank and EV miles combine to a total of 690 miles, giving it a one time average of 25+ MPG. As EV only short trips increase, the average goes up. As long trip mileage increases MPG decreases. My Prius is mostly shorter trips with the occasional trip using up the battery and relying on gas, but I still maintain an average of 150+ MPG on a vehicle that only gets 30 MPG on gas. For some the MPG will be great, and others not so much. It will either work for you or it wont. If it doesn't, then don't buy it.

It is reported somewhere that it will get 20mpg with the gas generator running, so if that estimated mpg is on the full tank and charge that's means if you don't plug it in and just use this as the hybrid it is then you would get around 15-16 mpg not plugging in, and only 20 mpg when used on a full charge to start with.

The 20 mpg could be based upon already having a full charge that if you don't plug in it ever it would never be at.
145 miles is terrible on a full charge so this is obviously designed with the mind set of using gas also ie being a hybrid which is fine but I question the efficiency of it.

You write some inflammatory content for being a mod, normally I'd have blocked you by now but you being a mod, the site doesn't support that feature. So here we are.

There is nothing wrong with appreciating a good v8, and preferring that above all else.

He's not going to understand it :-/
At least he doesn't go around throwing warnings at people and can take what he dishes back.

 

[HSKR R/T]

You write some inflammatory content for being a mod, normally I'd have blocked you by now but you being a mod, the site doesn't support that feature. So here we are.

There is nothing wrong with appreciating a good v8, and preferring that above all else. Feeling "macho" is one possibility, there are others, such as, liking the sound, cheaper to own/maintain than this charger, easier to maintain and so on. We all know the cost of this truck is going to be at least 20k more than a basic work truck with a hemi. You'll never save money owning this, if you want the cheapest truck that "gets the job done" for 20+ years of ownership.



The charger should definitely tow nicer, no question. The thing is, a truck has to be looked at "as a complete package". My truck already tows well, though I'll never turn down more (v8) power it's not some desperately pathetic thing that can't tow, so at that point since it meets my towing needs other criteria come into play.


No I can't. My trailer plugs in, and eventually I'll be adding solar. I won't use generators, I can appreciate the onboard power as an idea and can see how useful that is to some, but I've never actually had a need for it.



Again, different needs. Perhaps you need to broaden your mind a little.

I'm certainly not putting down the charger, of all the EV trucks on the market to date, this is the one I'd purchase if price was removed from the equation. But it's also not my first choice, that would be my truck with the 6.4 SRT or any other v8 in the area of 500 hp.

Not really inflammatory if it's true. being a mod doesn't preclude me from being honest with my opinions. The only people it would offend are those it strikes s nerve with because they know it's true. People like the sound of a V8 because it's mean and aggressive(manly). If that's your only reason for a specific engine choice, then stick with a V8. If you have practicality and usefulness in mind, it wouldnt hurt to broaden your mind and realize the Ramcharger will do everything your V8 can do, except sound like a V8, and do it better.

I appreciate a good V8 rumble. I own three V8 trucks, and have aftermarket exhaust on all of them because I wanted a better sound. And I wanted the V8 because they made the most power. If the Ramcharger would have been an option when I bought my Ram, and they had it in the BTS package, I'd definitely have bought it, especially if a Hemi wasn't an option.

You can't say for certain a Hemi Ram is cheaper to own because you have no experience with the Ramcharger, and pricing hasn't been released, so we don't "all know" how much more it's going to cost. Easier to maintain is definitely not true. Right now you have an engine, transmission, transfer case, differential, hydraulic braking system, batteries, generator... All that needs maintenance. the Ramcharger has an engine, generator, batteries, and electric motors. it eliminates most of the mechanical components meaning it should be easier, and cheaper, to maintain. Making up reasons to dislike it isnt productive in this thread.