REV vs Ramcharger - who would buy a REV?

[StuartV]

There is way too much here for me to be interested in replying to. Let me sum it up like this. There are no spreadsheets listing the cost. We all know that. Our projections are obviously predictions as opposed to figures released directly from Ram, but based on the price of other EVs in the marketplace, batteries are extremely costly. Then you will have to pay for that battery a second time if (like me) you keep your trucks for 20+ years. On top of the battery costs (which are already exorbitant), you have the extra costs of maintaining a regular v6. Of course this double cost (battery + engine) is going to cost you more than maintaining a hemi, we don't need a spreadsheet for this its simple logic.

"Simple" logic. The same kind of logic others use to "explain" why banning some things will reduce certain statistics....

You are assuming that the maintenance of the V6 will be on the same schedule, with the same costs as it is now, when the V6 is used as the only motor in a RAM 1500.

I don't think that is reasonable at all. So, the "simple" logic does not hold up to the "complex" reality.

The cost of maintenance of a V6 used as a generator (in a plug-in EV) for 20 years should be far lower than the cost of maintenance of:

V6 used as only drive motor
transmission
transfer case
torque converter
front and rear differentials
auto-locking hubs

What we've been told so far is that the generator is "130kW". That is 174 HP.

Having the Pentastar motor tuned to output a max of 174 HP and only running part of the time the vehicle is being driven (and not always at max output) (for MOST Ramcharger owners) should result in extremely high reliability and much lower maintenance necessary on a per-hour-of-runtime basis. And with it only running a fraction of the time the vehicle is being driven, the cost of maintenance of the gas engine should be a small fraction of the cost of running a Hemi as the only motor for the same number of vehicle miles.

In 72K miles of ownership, I spent $1,000 (very close - the total is $3,921.58, but that includes approximately $3K spent on wheels and tires during that time) on service for my '19 RAM 1500 with Hemi/eTorque. That was just oil and filter changes. I didn't have it long enough to have any of the big service/repair bills. No transmission/torque converter/transfer case/diff servicing. And no charge for the exhaust leak that was repaired under warranty.

How much you reckon I would have spent on a Ramcharger Pentastar in 72K miles and 3 years? I'm guessing just 3 oil changes and that's it. So... $150? Save $250 a year on maintenance and that's $5000, over 20 years. And that doesn't count how much you save on "fuel", or how much you save by not having a transmission, etc, to service and fix during that 20 years.

So... is a Ramcharger REALLY going to be more expensive over a 20 year period of ownership?

I think that remains to be seen, and all the assertions that "simple logic" tells us it's going to be way more expensive are just, well, hot air. Wild speculation not based on any actual data being analyzed.

 

[theblet]

If you think of the truck itself being the housing maybe it starts to make more sense? The other thing to consider is we're talking DC voltage and likely at 48V. So that starts to change the calculation of wattage.
View attachment 171084

Yes, it would be left left side of the unit pictured here. a normal 130kw is huge (even without the engine). Generators can only produce AC, so its usually advertised as AC kw. It will need to be converted to DC.

 

[Grape_Ape]

Yes, it would be left left side of the unit pictured here. a normal 130kw is huge (even without the engine). Generators can only produce AC, so its usually advertised as AC kw. It will need to be converted to DC.

There are absolutely DC generators and I was incorrect. The ramcharger will be using the 400v architecture.

For reference after a ton of digging it looks like the BMW i3 used a 2 cylinder engine to drive a DC 330v generator capable of outputting 23KW at 4800rpm. For what it's worth.

 

[6of36]

Yes, it would be left left side of the unit pictured here. a normal 130kw is huge (even without the engine). Generators can only produce AC, so its usually advertised as AC kw. It will need to be converted to DC.

I clicked on the second of two posts to reply to. The generator will go where the transmission would be. Plenty of room with no trans. Second, generators actually produce DC current, and it is converted to AC, for home use. Alternators are called alternators because they produce AC, and use diodes, to convert to DC.

 

[HSKR R/T]

Yep. And then you changed to talking about replacing PART of a battery. One module, to be specific, instead of the whole battery. Or am I off and that was someone else?

Because the entire battery pack doesn't always need to be replaced. Would be like putting in a new engine because the water pump went bad.

 

[theblet]

I clicked on the second of two posts to reply to. The generator will go where the transmission would be. Plenty of room with no trans. Second, generators actually produce DC current, and it is converted to AC, for home use. Alternators are called alternators because they produce AC, and use diodes, to convert to DC.

I think you have that backwards. A generator is essentially a big alternator. It uses electromagnetic induction to create alternating current. Any mechanism which uses a rotating magnetic field produces AC. If you look at it on an oscilloscope it will be sine waves, as opposed to a battery (DC) which will be a straight line.

 

[Grape_Ape]

Difference Between AC and DC Generator In Tabular Form - BYJU'S

Difference Between AC and DC Generator in tabular form is given here. Visit now to check the comparison and differences between DC and AC generators in detail.

byjus.com

 

[theblet]

Difference Between AC and DC Generator In Tabular Form - BYJU'S

Difference Between AC and DC Generator in tabular form is given here. Visit now to check the comparison and differences between DC and AC generators in detail.

byjus.com

Yup, thanks for confirming my statement. The generator will produce AC current. The use of a commutator is what turns it into DC current as it reverses the direction of the current with each half turn.

The auto industry switched to using diodes instead of a commutator long ago, probably due to longevity.

 

[Rick3478]

I think you have that backwards. A generator is essentially a big alternator. It uses electromagnetic induction to create alternating current. Any mechanism which uses a rotating magnetic field produces AC. If you look at it on an oscilloscope it will be sine waves, as opposed to a battery (DC) which will be a straight line.

Incorrect. Technically all of them are "generators", in the sense that they convert mechanical movement into electricity, but:

The devices usually called generators have a stationary magnetic field and spin a multi-phase armature within that field. Phase commutation is usually done with brushes, although you could theoretically embed diodes in the armature but would still need slip rings. A big drawback of generators is that the high current output must pass through brushes or slip rings.

Alternators turn this inside-out by spinning an electromagnet rotor within a multi-phase stator, producing high current AC which can then be rectified with diodes to produce DC (if desired). A big advantage of alternators is that only the low current field needs to pass through slip rings.

Perversely, home and industrial backup "generators" are actually alternators.

 

[Pertzbro]

Who the hell keeps a daily driver 20 years!? I cant think of a single person i know that has ever kept a vehicle for 20 years that was a daily driver. Usually, they retire it at 15 years to a secondary vehicle, or a "nostalgia" vehicle to keep around for their kids or grandkids or they trade/sell for new(er). Personally i figure, buy brand new, run 10 years at most, trade in for a new one.

 

[theblet]

Perversely, home and industrial backup "generators" are actually alternators.

I said this

 

[Trooper4]

Ya'll need to start a thread for arguing about $hit that really don't mean $hit and that most of us don't give a $hit about. This WAS a thread simply stating the manufacture of a vehicle that is a long time in the NEED, and strictly informative.

 

[Jako]

Who the hell keeps a daily driver 20 years!? I cant think of a single person i know that has ever kept a vehicle for 20 years that was a daily driver. Usually, they retire it at 15 years to a secondary vehicle, or a "nostalgia" vehicle to keep around for their kids or grandkids or they trade/sell for new(er). Personally i figure, buy brand new, run 10 years at most, trade in for a new one.

1985 Toyota Corolla - daily driver from new to 2006, "stored" in back yard awaiting oldest son to drive, plan didn't work. Eventually on June 27th 2020 gave away to a mechanic who wanted to restore. Motor started right up for him. Great car, 5 speed rear wheel drive, easy to work on, had it "zeibarted" - didn't work, but still restorable.
Took great care of the car for many years and than life got in the way. Last I heard he had put a different engine in it.
January will be 23 years with my 2001 Dodge Ram, not a daily driver for the most part after 2006, 86,000 miles.
93 year old mother in law still has her 2003 Gran Marquis 75,000 miles. Father passed away at age 89 in 2019 owning his 1996 Crown Vic.
Both mother in law and father are/were very happy with the cars as was I with my 1985 Toyota Corolla SR5.

Should have bought the GTS

https://www.cars.com/shopping/toyota-corolla-1985/?utm_campaign_id=376544604&utm_trusted=TRUE&network=s&ag_id=1200667291998634&loc_physical_ms=96852&loc_interest_ms=&aff=acqgeosem46&KNC=acqgeosem46&msclkid=27e2dbbe40561867bd02bee8f6d42d3e

 

[HSKR R/T]

My 2000 Dakota R/T, that is still in my garage was a daily driver from 2002 when I bought it until 2013, and even after that it was still driven frequently.

 

[Rick3478]

Who the hell keeps a daily driver 20 years!? I cant think of a single person i know that has ever kept a vehicle for 20 years that was a daily driver. Usually, they retire it at 15 years to a secondary vehicle, or a "nostalgia" vehicle to keep around for their kids or grandkids or they trade/sell for new(er). Personally i figure, buy brand new, run 10 years at most, trade in for a new one.

Guilty as charged. Drove '02 Dakota daily until I added a rice burner to the fleet. Drove it until the wheels started to fall off, then replaced wheel bearings and brakes and kept going. Hope it will keep going through this winter to keep my good vehicles out of the salt.

 

[theblet]

Me too. 15 to 20 years on a vehicle for sure

 

[Belvedere]

Who the hell keeps a daily driver 20 years!? I cant think of a single person i know that has ever kept a vehicle for 20 years that was a daily driver. Usually, they retire it at 15 years to a secondary vehicle, or a "nostalgia" vehicle to keep around for their kids or grandkids or they trade/sell for new(er). Personally i figure, buy brand new, run 10 years at most, trade in for a new one.

This lady...

 

[theblet]

and she still looks damn good, the car I mean

 

[habu987]

Since we keep rehashing the same discussion about pricing, I'll reiterate what we do know as my last post on the topic:

• The battery pack costs somewhere in the vicinity of $9k to manufacture, given the current industry price of approximately $100/kWh.
• Presuming the EV motors are approximately the same cost as Tesla's EV motors, they're somewhere in the ballpark of $2000-3000 apiece.
• All the wiring + electronics for the EV drivetrain are probably another $1000-2000 as a total WAG.

That adds up to probably somewhere in the ballpark of $15-17k more than an ICE 1500 with the Pentastar. Subtract the transmission and all the other ICE components that aren't necessary, which is a WAG of $5-10k (if anyone has more detailed CTM figures for those other components, I'd love to hear them!), and you're likely somewhere in the same zip code as a $7-10k upcharge for Ram to manufacture the Ramcharger over an ICE model with the same Pentastar.

That's just the cost to manufacture, not the retail cost; nor does it include overhead and sunk costs specifically for the Ramcharger and REV models.

On top of that, Ram is likely to position it as a step up from the Hemi, not a direct step up from the Pentastar despite using the same engine. Presuming Ram isn't planning on taking a margin hit, I'd expect this to come in at somewhere around a $15k upcharge over the equivalent ICE model.

At the end of the day, this is just a very slightly educated guess that definitely leans towards the WAG end of the spectrum. We don't know the BOM, we don't know the loaded CTM, and we don't know Ram's pricing strategy.

 

[HSKR R/T]

Since we keep rehashing the same discussion about pricing, I'll reiterate what we do know as my last post on the topic:

• The battery pack costs somewhere in the vicinity of $9k to manufacture, given the current industry price of approximately $100/kWh.
• Presuming the EV motors are approximately the same cost as Tesla's EV motors, they're somewhere in the ballpark of $2000-3000 apiece.
• All the wiring + electronics for the EV drivetrain are probably another $1000-2000 as a total WAG.

That adds up to probably somewhere in the ballpark of $15-17k more than an ICE 1500 with the Pentastar. Subtract the transmission and all the other ICE components that aren't necessary, which is a WAG of $5-10k (if anyone has more detailed CTM figures for those other components, I'd love to hear them!), and you're likely somewhere in the same zip code as a $7-10k upcharge for Ram to manufacture the Ramcharger over an ICE model with the same Pentastar.

That's just the cost to manufacture, not the retail cost; nor does it include overhead and sunk costs specifically for the Ramcharger and REV models.

On top of that, Ram is likely to position it as a step up from the Hemi, not a direct step up from the Pentastar despite using the same engine. Presuming Ram isn't planning on taking a margin hit, I'd expect this to come in at somewhere around a $15k upcharge over the equivalent ICE model.

At the end of the day, this is just a very slightly educated guess that definitely leans towards the WAG end of the spectrum. We don't know the BOM, we don't know the loaded CTM, and we don't know Ram's pricing strategy.

I mean, It's obviously not going to be positioned as a step up from the normal V6 drivetrain. It's not even in the same playing field performance wise. I'd imagine it will base out mid-level from pricing. No way it will ever be Tradesman pricing, but also not going to be TRX level. I'd expect $60-$70k if they want it to sell. Which is inline with many of the current Hemi optioned trucks