securityguy
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That price with 0% is a fantastic deal my friend!
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Price negotiated from MSRP
- Thread starter Jared B
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Silent Bob
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Document fees must be included for a true apples to apples compare.
This is common sense. Your judgment is clouded by years of thinking these fees are required. I respect your knowledge but you are very confused about this fee.
Do you think dealer prep fees should be excluded? How about ADM Fees (Additional Dealer Markup)? Nitrogen fee? There is no difference between these fees and a doc fee other than the more widespread use of the doc fee.
All government required fees and taxes need to be removed for a true apples to apples compare.
ny2az
Well-Known Member
l tried for shiits and giggles... just horrible ... carvana gave me $42,700 ... VROOM $45,500 .... all my local dealers were at $48,500 - $52,000 ... l settled on the $52k trade ...
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wallyuwl
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Vroom has given me good price offers. Carvana, not so much.
securityguy
Legendary member
Actually Vroom gave me a price $6000 higher than Carvana so let's see what happens!
securityguy
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WReckeR
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I think that deal is pretty solid, actually. I have been assuming the best open market finance rate (no special credit union) is about 2.9-3.5%. My target for the EXACT SAME MSRP has been $58,000 with a 3% finance. 3% interest on a $60,500 loan for 60 months is $4,726. So a 0% loan is a $4,726 savings. Put another way, If you couldn't get 0% and had to take the 3% finance rate, the total loan cost on $56,115 would be $60,499 ($4,384 in interest). The 0% offers you an excellent savings. Consider that when the Employee Pricing promo was active, you could not get that deal AND 0%. Now, you're getting more or less equivalent discount, and you're still being offered the 0%.
Is it on the lot, or an order? Does that discount include any rebates? And what is their doc fee?
I would like to approach your dealer with the same value, and I would absolutely take it.
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scottmoyer
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I keep seeing the argument about dealer fees being included or not. When a buyer is looking at their cost to buy, I see the argument for adding these fees if you live in a state that has them. Living in Florida, I have to deal with those fees if I purchase in state and unfortunately, you can't legally negotiate them away. As was mentioned , many dealers will discount the car to cover the dealer fee cost. But, what happens when the car is discounted to 0 profit and the only money left for the dealer is this fee and manufacturer deals to the dealership? They won't take the loss to below zero, in most cases, and they legally have to charge the dealer fee to all buyers.
So, I can see where people are adding that cost in to the purchase because it is non negotiable for them. Every other add on fees and parts are negotiable, but unfortunately, some cases prove that the dealer fee isn't always removable and becomes part of the initial purchase price.
I opted to purchase out of state because the dealer fee made my pre TTL cost higher than ordering from a dealer that doesn't do fees. I think the apples to apples pricing should include all required costs (called out) minus TTL. Adding in a dealer fee of $899 in some instances does change the percentage of total discount you can get on that vehicle. Using my purchase, if I bought it in Florida, my discount would not be 19% off MSRP before TTL. My discount equates to 15.5% because I'm required to pay that fee and the dealers said they couldn't go any lower to cover that cost.
So, I can see where people are adding that cost in to the purchase because it is non negotiable for them. Every other add on fees and parts are negotiable, but unfortunately, some cases prove that the dealer fee isn't always removable and becomes part of the initial purchase price.
I opted to purchase out of state because the dealer fee made my pre TTL cost higher than ordering from a dealer that doesn't do fees. I think the apples to apples pricing should include all required costs (called out) minus TTL. Adding in a dealer fee of $899 in some instances does change the percentage of total discount you can get on that vehicle. Using my purchase, if I bought it in Florida, my discount would not be 19% off MSRP before TTL. My discount equates to 15.5% because I'm required to pay that fee and the dealers said they couldn't go any lower to cover that cost.
1ramrunner
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I agree with Bob. The dealer fee and the sometimes added destination fee should all be considered when comparing. After all, those numbers are the cost to obtain the vehicle. The tax and tags vary by location and are a cost to license a vehicle.
As for dealers making a profit. They make a lot of money on some transactions and they lose some money on others. They need to keep turning their inventory and have quotas to shoot for. Just like other retail outlets, there will always be loss leaders and big gross profit items. Combined, the dealer comes out ahead. Making $100 on a sale is better than making $0 when the customer shops elsewhere.
You would be surprised how many people pay full price on items.
As for dealers making a profit. They make a lot of money on some transactions and they lose some money on others. They need to keep turning their inventory and have quotas to shoot for. Just like other retail outlets, there will always be loss leaders and big gross profit items. Combined, the dealer comes out ahead. Making $100 on a sale is better than making $0 when the customer shops elsewhere.
You would be surprised how many people pay full price on items.
Eldodroptop
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As far as Dealership fees, they must be considered in any deal. Those fees are taxable, and are therefore negotiable. This thread is pretty much about negotiating the best deal possible, is it not?
I hate having to work around the $150 Doc fee (I couldn’t fathom having to deal with an $899 doc fee) and rampant overuse of addendums in my market, it’s absolutely the worst Dealership abuse of the consumer in the modern era. And yet Dealerships have the gall to complain that people are willing to buy overpriced cars from CarMax, Carvana, Zoom, etc...
I hate having to work around the $150 Doc fee (I couldn’t fathom having to deal with an $899 doc fee) and rampant overuse of addendums in my market, it’s absolutely the worst Dealership abuse of the consumer in the modern era. And yet Dealerships have the gall to complain that people are willing to buy overpriced cars from CarMax, Carvana, Zoom, etc...
Is this after all the incentives? I'm assuming so
securityguy
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Let's use this as an example. I am a dealer knowing that if I make my quota on selling 100 cars this month I will receive $50,000. I am approaching the end of the month and have two cars I need to sell to get my $50,000 manufacturer bonus. I sell the 49th car at a loss of $3,000 and the 50th car at a loss of $5,000. I just lost $8K, but I also got a check for $50K from the manufacturer...so net I put $42K in the bank. This happens at the end of every month at every dealer nationwide. Some of us will get lucky and hit that sweet spot (I have several times throughout my life) and be "the guy" that gets the awesome deal. Most of us will not time it right, but will still negotiate solid deals where everyone "wins".
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securityguy
Legendary member
The point is that, in most states, the dealer fee is allowable by law and managed by the state/county and is NOT NEGOTIABLE in the sense that it can just be removed. As I stated above, it can be negotiated in other ways. As an example, my dealer fee is $500 and is non-negotiable. The state/county MUST see that on every vehicle they sell on the buyers order. However, I can get the dealer to throw in $500 worth of accessories or add another $500 to my trade negating the cost of the dealer fee.
dartbrooks
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I agree with Bob that dealership fees must be included to compare apples to apples. Sure, some states may require the dealership fee, but you don't have to buy in that state. In fact, that's the main thing with this thread, right? Finding the best deal by reaching out to multiple high volume dealers throughout the country. Let's use an example of getting $10,000 off MSRP from a dealership in Florida who charges a $899 dealership fee, then getting $9,750 off MSRP from a dealership in Louisiana who charges a $200 dealership fee. If we use Securityguy's method of comparing then we would say the Florida dealership is the better price ($10,000 off MSRP vs. $9,750 off MSRP). However, if we use Bob's method of comparing then it would show that we actually saved $449 by going with the Louisiana dealership ($10,000-$899=$9,101 vs. $9,750-$200=$9,550). $449 is not an insignificant amount. That could be 1% of MSRP for some deals. TTL you have to pay no matter which dealership you buy from because they are based on the state you live in. Since they do not vary when comparing the deals from dealerships around the country, they shouldn't be considered when choosing which dealership to buy from.
Silent Bob
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The dealerships have done a good job convincing many people, yourself included, that document fees are required. No states require a document fee. A few states require that if you have one you must charge everyone the same. It is just part of the price the dealership charges. The dealer can charge whatever he wants for a vehicle. In most states he can break these cost out any way he chooses. Many states require that any non government fees be included in the advertised price.
What are your thoughts on my previous question to you?
"Do you think dealer prep fees should be excluded? How about ADM Fees (Additional Dealer Markup)? Nitrogen fee? There is no difference between these fees and a doc fee other than the more widespread use of the doc fee."
This is so simple that anyone should be able to understand it. Whatever the dealer is charging you minus government fees and taxes is what the dealer is charging you.
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scottmoyer
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100% agree. Well stated.
securityguy
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I don't disagree at all with the point of buying out of state and that you can save dealer fee dollars by doing so. When I lived in VA, the dealer fees were about $750 on average. A 30 minute drive into Maryland had $299 dealer fees so I would look to purchase there first. Most buyers will not go this route to purchase a vehicle for convenience purposes and a purchase out of state may be too time consuming and has its own costs associated with it. Folks like us on this forum, enthusiasts that look for the best deals possible and are willing to drive 5+ hours, or even fly and drive home, are not the norm. The point can be argued every which way from Sunday. Yes...let's all add in our dealer fees going forward
dartbrooks
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I agree that many people will choose to buy from their home state for convenience. But a lot of people on this thread might be comparing deals from multiple states that are not their home state. Personally, I live in Idaho. So in my example comparing deals in Florida or Louisiana, both are a long trip for me. My point is that all of us should state the dealership fees in our posts on this thread, so others can use that info to make the best choice for them. Sometimes, the high dealership fee places actually have the best overall price because their other savings are high enough to offset the dealership fee. But we need to know that info to properly compare.I don't disagree at all with the point of buying out of state and that you can save dealer fee dollars by doing so. When I lived in VA, the dealer fees were about $750 on average. A 30 minute drive into Maryland had $299 dealer fees so I would look to purchase there first. Most buyers will not go this route to purchase a vehicle for convenience purposes and a purchase out of state may be too time consuming and has its own costs associated with it. Folks like us on this forum, enthusiasts that look for the best deals possible and are willing to drive 5+ hours, or even fly and drive home, are not the norm. The point can be argued every which way from Sunday. Yes...let's all add in our dealer fees going forward
Eldodroptop
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The fact that in some states if a doc fee is changed the price of the fee ($150 cap) must be the same for all consumers is not at all true, at least in my home state of Texas. Dealerships in Texas try and say otherwise, but the proof is in the fine print of the law.. Pay attention to the part that says “agreed to by the parties”. Certainly, not all states are Texas, and the law certainly differs, but it’s not difficult to find clarification that would be of use to the consumer in any state law if interested parties would be willing to research the fine print.
Texas Finance Code § 348.006 states that for a documentary fee to be included in the principal balance of a retail installment contract:
1. The seller must charge the fee to cash and credit buyers;
2. The fee may not exceed a reasonable amount agreed to by the parties for the documentary services;
3. The buyer's order and the retail installment contract must include:
A. A statement of the amount of the fee;
B. The following statement in reasonable proximity to the charge in type that is bold faced, capitalized, underlined, or otherwise conspicuously set out from surrounding written material:
“A DOCUMENTARY FEE IS NOT AN OFFICIAL FEE. A DOCUMENTARY FEE IS NOT REQUIRED BY LAW, BUT
MAY BE CHARGED TO BUYERS FOR HANDLING DOCUMENTS RELATING TO THE SALE. A DOCUMENTARY FEE MAY NOT EXCEED A REASONABLE AMOUNT AGREED TO BY THE PARTIES. THIS NOTICE IS REQUIRED BY LAW.”
Texas Finance Code § 348.006 states that for a documentary fee to be included in the principal balance of a retail installment contract:
1. The seller must charge the fee to cash and credit buyers;
2. The fee may not exceed a reasonable amount agreed to by the parties for the documentary services;
3. The buyer's order and the retail installment contract must include:
A. A statement of the amount of the fee;
B. The following statement in reasonable proximity to the charge in type that is bold faced, capitalized, underlined, or otherwise conspicuously set out from surrounding written material:
“A DOCUMENTARY FEE IS NOT AN OFFICIAL FEE. A DOCUMENTARY FEE IS NOT REQUIRED BY LAW, BUT
MAY BE CHARGED TO BUYERS FOR HANDLING DOCUMENTS RELATING TO THE SALE. A DOCUMENTARY FEE MAY NOT EXCEED A REASONABLE AMOUNT AGREED TO BY THE PARTIES. THIS NOTICE IS REQUIRED BY LAW.”
Silent Bob
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In the past many dealerships would tell customers that the doc fee is required by law. Some dealers will still mislead customers on this. In some states the above is required on the contract because of dealer abuse.
You can see by this Google search than many states use this same language. https://www.google.com/search?q="A+...gJEDU&cshid=1610474453793977&biw=1920&bih=937
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