Anyone ACTUALLY running 5w-30 or even 10w-30? Thoughts? Experience? Any REAL TRUTH to throwing a code running higher weight oil (no conjecture please)

[Anarki]

Does anyone have an oil analysis after running anything other than the recommended oil (0w20) in a 5.7??

 

[schmidja]

mike_ct wrote that his 4th gen had lifter failure at 120k miles, replaced failed components and failed again at 180k miles. This was using 5w20 full synthetic oils (Thanks Mike for the follow up) and changing Before oil service indicator required service. His replacement engine is now running 5w30 which he stated is quieter, and also has the MDS system disabled.

In my 2011 Ram Hemi that went 179k I used nothing but 5w20 Citgo semi-synthetic that was changed religiously at 3k miles and never more than 4k miles on several occasions. I towed a 7k# trailer 84k miles during this period in all weathers and extended grades to 5%.

One of the MDS lifters failed when I was 500 miles from home while towing in late August 2021 and was actually able to limp (55 max) it home pulling the trailer. I was aware that the MDS system in these engines could be a problem but didn’t think it’d happen until mine failed. I firmly believe now that early in ownership had the MDS been disabled with an aftermarket programmer in my 2011 I’d still be driving it.

A replacement engine estimate with MDS delete was $11k installed so I opted to sell to racers I knew (mechanics) that replace with a factory re-man and flipped the truck for a nice profit.

I ordered a new 2022 before production started and had it in 55 days. Here I learned how to manually disable the MDS system when driving and have been using this method now. I’m waiting to see if a programmer will be available to permanently disable the MDS in this 2022 and I’d be interested in possibly purchasing.

I'm curious to know more about the idea that letting MDS kick in being a bad thing - other than the crappy sound I thought I saw a particular video that showed MDS engaging increased the oil flow to the MDS lifters. I've been letting my truck go into MDS (ECO) as often as possible - thinking I'm doing something good. I too would like a "real" MDS delete, but that's a cam, lifters, etc. and can't see doing that without a problem. If there's some solid evidence that running in ECO is bad, then I'll just use the Gear +/- to disable each time I drive. Thanks.
John

 

[Mountain Whiskey]

Does anyone have an oil analysis after running anything other than the recommended oil (0w20) in a 5.7??

Huh, my owners manual recommends 5w20. The 3.6 calls for 0w20

Engine Oil – 5.7L Engine
We recommend you use API Certified SAE 5W-20 engine oil, meeting the
requirements of the manufacturer Material Standard MS-6395

 

[Cbty2050]

mike_ct wrote that his 4th gen had lifter failure at 120k miles, replaced failed components and failed again at 180k miles. This was using 5w20 full synthetic oils (Thanks Mike for the follow up) and changing Before oil service indicator required service. His replacement engine is now running 5w30 which he stated is quieter, and also has the MDS system disabled.

In my 2011 Ram Hemi that went 179k I used nothing but 5w20 Citgo semi-synthetic that was changed religiously at 3k miles and never more than 4k miles on several occasions. I towed a 7k# trailer 84k miles during this period in all weathers and extended grades to 5%.

One of the MDS lifters failed when I was 500 miles from home while towing in late August 2021 and was actually able to limp (55 max) it home pulling the trailer. I was aware that the MDS system in these engines could be a problem but didn’t think it’d happen until mine failed. I firmly believe now that early in ownership had the MDS been disabled with an aftermarket programmer in my 2011 I’d still be driving it.

A replacement engine estimate with MDS delete was $11k installed so I opted to sell to racers I knew (mechanics) that replace with a factory re-man and flipped the truck for a nice profit.

I ordered a new 2022 before production started and had it in 55 days. Here I learned how to manually disable the MDS system when driving and have been using this method now. I’m waiting to see if a programmer will be available to permanently disable the MDS in this 2022 and I’d be interested in possibly purchasing.

You do know any lifter in the hemi can fail. It's 50/50 weather or not it's mds roller failure.

 

[IvoryHemi]

Does anyone have an oil analysis after running anything other than the recommended oil (0w20) in a 5.7??

Huh, my owners manual recommends 5w20. The 3.6 calls for 0w20

Engine Oil – 5.7L Engine
We recommend you use API Certified SAE 5W-20 engine oil, meeting the
requirements of the manufacturer Material Standard MS-6395

2022 is the first model year that 5.7L’s recommend oil weight changed to 0w20

 

[silver billet]

Does anyone have an oil analysis after running anything other than the recommended oil (0w20) in a 5.7??

Here are 3 reports of my truck, all Redline. Most recent is 5w-30, middle one is 5w-20, and the oldest is 5w-30 again.

 

[silver billet]

You do know any lifter in the hemi can fail. It's 50/50 weather or not it's mds roller failure.

There are many theories as to why lifters fail. Some say MDS (it's not, lifters in hemis without MDS (6.4 2500) also fail), some say weak cams (they are possibly weak, they are weaker than GM's cams, but does the cam take out the lifter or does the lifter take out the cam?), some say poor lubrication (but why do some engines go their entire life with no failure when driven roughly the same way), some say idling (but why do some trucks fail with < 300 idle hours and others go > 1200 idle hours to date with no failure). etc.

In my opinion, the reason for tick is the needle bearings wear out, either due to dirty oil or a manufacturing flaw. This is the only explanation that makes sense to me, because it not only explains why it happens to some, it also explains why it doesn't happen to others (or other lifters on the same engine). And it explains why FCA reworked the lifters sometime around 2016 (not sure on exact year).

So (again my opinion), it will either happen to you or it won't, based on whether you have the flawed lifter due to poor quality control. Redline can help as show with many user reports on ramform.com which say they've eliminated or reduced the tick by using RL. But there are no guarantees.

I switched to RL the second I found out about the tick, and have been doing UOA reports ever since. My hope is that it might show wear levels increasing if a lifter is starting to head south. We'll see. They only cost a few bucks and I also love the reports anyway, kind of fascinating.

 

[HEMIJAKE]

Here’s a photo of the non-API approved oil analysis reports from my race engines that I only do once a year, partly looking at the oil package I’m using. Some have Molybdenum, some don’t. These oils are all 10w30. NONE of these oils are RL. None of these oils cost anywhere close to what RL race or street oils costs.

If you believe that higher amounts of Molybdenum are better, change your own oil and need to be able to prove that you have used the correct Factory approved oil for warranty service, then you should consider using Havoline motor oil. It costs dramatically less than RL, and Unlike RL that has No Industry Approvals, Havoline is GF-6 /API SP and meets Chrysler MS-6395 specifications.

If you go to “The Petroleum Quality Institute of America” web page https://pqia.org/ and select Products Tested, Passenger Car Motor Oils, then from the list select any Havoline product to see the oil analysis.
View attachment 118675

Any idea why the numbers seem so vastly different for 2018? Seems like you have a pretty good pattern going, but the numbers in 2018 are way different? Just curious.

 

[schmidja]

I wouldn’t mess with various oil weights in a mds/afm/dod/dfm equipped engine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why not? FCA has "messed with" oil weight/viscosity 3 times. First 5w30, then 5w20, now 0w20 -- all on the same engine. Why do you think these changes are being made (why the move to lower viscosity oil)?
Thanks - John

 

[schmidja]

That's not proof of anything.

Not sure what you're looking for as "proof", but the statement in the Owner's Manual is FCA's attempt to explain why they are recommending 5w20. That was supplied to support my original statement ....

 

[Idahoktm]

Not sure what you're looking for as "proof", but the statement in the Owner's Manual is FCA's attempt to explain why they are recommending 5w20. That was supplied to support my original statement ....

This is what you said, "Yes, they do it for ONE reason ... and that is to slightly improve their reported mpg (CAFE). Nothing (okay, much less) to do with "what's best for the engine". They're probably giggling at how successful they've been at fooling so many people. Remember, these are the same people that chose where to mount the oil filter on the 5.7L hemi."

You appeared to have inside information that FCA was recommending 5w20 for ONE reason. Then you quoted the owner's manual which shows two reasons for recommending 5w20. Then you imply that they would make this change, even if it was detrimental to the longevity of the engine. Finally, you support your statement by criticizing the location of the oil filter.

You still haven't provided proof to support your theory.

 

[Trooper4]

Your engine doesn't really care that it's warm out. It runs the same general temperatures regardless of ambient.

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Depending on "how warm" warm is. Drive Death Valley in the summer, and it gets really hard for the radiator to dissipate heat, and, if you are pushing the speeds, it gets even harder. But yes, in general very true.

 

[Trooper4]

That's one time I'm siding with Stellantis. The guy wasn't changing his oil as often as is required for warranty coverage. Case closed.

Point being, if they decline warranty on this, then the may decline on oil type/viscosity.
Just a thought.
While under warranty, I just let the dealer do the changes, and if there is a problem, it's theirs.

 

[mikeru82]

Point being, if they decline warranty on this, then the may decline on oil type/viscosity.
Just a thought.
While under warranty, I just let the dealer do the changes, and if there is a problem, it's theirs.

Oh, absolutely. I have no misconceptions about them declining the warranty because someone used an oil that doesn't meet their spec'd oil viscosity or having met certain testing standards. I see how you could tie the two together.

Although I disagree with you about letting the dealership do my oil changes. I don't want the least trained individual doing something as critical as changing the oil. It's not rocket science, but they are trying to do oil changes as quickly as they can to get as many vehicles through as they can. Which makes it easy to make a mistake. Sure, if they mess up the dealership will have to take care of it on their dime. But I'm the one who has to deal with not having a truck to use while they correct the problem. Which could be a day or could be weeks. But then again I'm not one of the people arguing for using something that's not spec'd in my engine.

 

[Mountain Whiskey]

Depending on "how warm" warm is. Drive Death Valley in the summer, and it gets really hard for the radiator to dissipate heat, and, if you are pushing the speeds, it gets even harder. But yes, in general very true.

Yea, you might find it a bit chilly if you are 4wheeling at the north pole too but meanwhile the other 99.999999999999% of us see even engine temps wherever we drive.

 

[schmidja]

This is what you said, "Yes, they do it for ONE reason ... and that is to slightly improve their reported mpg (CAFE). Nothing (okay, much less) to do with "what's best for the engine". They're probably giggling at how successful they've been at fooling so many people. Remember, these are the same people that chose where to mount the oil filter on the 5.7L hemi."

You appeared to have inside information that FCA was recommending 5w20 for ONE reason. Then you quoted the owner's manual which shows two reasons for recommending 5w20. Then you imply that they would make this change, even if it was detrimental to the longevity of the engine. Finally, you support your statement by criticizing the location of the oil filter.

You still haven't provided proof to support your theory.

Okay, sorry. Let me try again. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to as "my theory", so I'll address each of my statements - maybe that will help. First, though here's the statement verbatim from the manual regarding the 5w20 oil recommendation.
"This engine oil improves low temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy."
So, the definition of improve: "achieve or produce something better than" definition straight from dictionary.
"This engine oil" is the 5w20. Now, better than what?? The what is the 5w30 that they used to recommend. Interestingly, the 5w has not changed, and that is the "winter" viscosity or "low temperature starting" viscosity, so going from 5w20 to 5w30 isn't changing too much with regard to low temperature starting - as they suggest. (A 0w20 oil which is recommended starting 2022, that DOES affect lower temperature starting - but we're talking 5w20). In general for any given engine, more time is accumulated in a fully warmed up state, and that's when the 20 or 30 viscosity comes in to play. So since the argument for "low temperature starting" is gone, all that's left is for ECONOMY - which is my ONE reason in my statement below.
"Yes, they do it for ONE reason ... and that is to slightly improve their reported mpg (CAFE)."
My next statement was: "Nothing (okay, much less) to do with "what's best for the engine".
This is my opinion because I don't believe that going from a 30 to a 20, is doing anything that would be called "best for the engine." I can only prove that or base that on the fact that I haven't seen any Technical bulletins for older 5.7L Hemi's owners saying stop using 5w30 and switch to 5w20, so if they really had something that was better for the engines (5w20), I hope they would pass it on to all of their customers (TSB or ??), not just keep it for new customers, right? (Unless I missed a TSB or ?? - that's possible). Further, I did check (via phone) with TWO local Ram Service departments - to see if there's any global change for all 5.7L hemis with regard to oil viscosity, and they both told me "If your engine oil cap and associated documentation says 5w30, then use 5w30 - if it says 5w20, then use 5w20". That was it. I could call more Service departments but .. I might (probably) get the same answer. I think that's the only safe answer for them.
My third statement "They're probably giggling at how successful they've been at fooling so many people." - Well, you've got me there, I have no easy way to prove that. It's truly my opinion, and it was kind of a joke or an aside. Whether they're giggling or not would certainly be hard to prove.
And my last statement "Remember, these are the same people that chose where to mount the oil filter on the 5.7L hemi."
Well FCA/RAM are in fact the same people that chose where to mount the oil filter and are now changing the oil viscosity recommendations. Obviously the timing is different, but they are the same people, same company, etc.
So, that's where I'm coming from with my post. If I'm inaccurate or wrong on any of this, please tell me - I'm always interested in learning more, being more accurate, etc. - my post just described what I've observed and/or read.
I also am hoping to do the best/right thing to keep my 5.7L hemi running strong and lasting long!
Sorry for this long explanation.
Thanks. - John

 

[HSKR R/T]

Okay, sorry. Let me try again. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to as "my theory", so I'll address each of my statements - maybe that will help. First, though here's the statement verbatim from the manual regarding the 5w20 oil recommendation.
"This engine oil improves low temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy."
So, the definition of improve: "achieve or produce something better than" definition straight from dictionary.
"This engine oil" is the 5w20. Now, better than what?? The what is the 5w30 that they used to recommend. Interestingly, the 5w has not changed, and that is the "winter" viscosity or "low temperature starting" viscosity, so going from 5w20 to 5w30 isn't changing too much with regard to low temperature starting - as they suggest. (A 0w20 oil which is recommended starting 2022, that DOES affect lower temperature starting - but we're talking 5w20). In general for any given engine, more time is accumulated in a fully warmed up state, and that's when the 20 or 30 viscosity comes in to play. So since the argument for "low temperature starting" is gone, all that's left is for ECONOMY - which is my ONE reason in my statement below.
"Yes, they do it for ONE reason ... and that is to slightly improve their reported mpg (CAFE)."
My next statement was: "Nothing (okay, much less) to do with "what's best for the engine".
This is my opinion because I don't believe that going from a 30 to a 20, is doing anything that would be called "best for the engine." I can only prove that or base that on the fact that I haven't seen any Technical bulletins for older 5.7L Hemi's owners saying stop using 5w30 and switch to 5w20, so if they really had something that was better for the engines (5w20), I hope they would pass it on to all of their customers (TSB or ??), not just keep it for new customers, right? (Unless I missed a TSB or ?? - that's possible). Further, I did check (via phone) with TWO local Ram Service departments - to see if there's any global change for all 5.7L hemis with regard to oil viscosity, and they both told me "If your engine oil cap and associated documentation says 5w30, then use 5w30 - if it says 5w20, then use 5w20". That was it. I could call more Service departments but .. I might (probably) get the same answer. I think that's the only safe answer for them.
My third statement "They're probably giggling at how successful they've been at fooling so many people." - Well, you've got me there, I have no easy way to prove that. It's truly my opinion, and it was kind of a joke or an aside. Whether they're giggling or not would certainly be hard to prove.
And my last statement "Remember, these are the same people that chose where to mount the oil filter on the 5.7L hemi."
Well FCA/RAM are in fact the same people that chose where to mount the oil filter and are now changing the oil viscosity recommendations. Obviously the timing is different, but they are the same people, same company, etc.
So, that's where I'm coming from with my post. If I'm inaccurate or wrong on any of this, please tell me - I'm always interested in learning more, being more accurate, etc. - my post just described what I've observed and/or read.
I also am hoping to do the best/right thing to keep my 5.7L hemi running strong and lasting long!
Sorry for this long explanation.
Thanks. - John

As far as your comment about them being the ones who chose the oil filter location, yes, they did. It's the same location on every 5.7l Hemi built. Initial design with the vehicles at that time wasn't an issue. It wasn't profitable to redesign the Hemi for one vehicle because it's a slight inconvenience for the few owners who change their own oil.

 

[Mr.Grid]

You do know any lifter in the hemi can fail. It's 50/50 weather or not it's mds roller failure.

Agreed.

This engine now has much larger lifter roller needle bearings introduced in 2017 and a 5th gen system to speed the warmup of the automatic transmission fluid and engine oil. I see this as a reliability improvement.

I don’t see the 0w20 as a problem as it’s still 20 when warmed. No different than what went 179k in my 2011. They now recommend only Synthetic oil for 0w20, where before 5w20 dino was acceptable in the 4th gen.

For myself, changing oil more often at a specific mileage than others is what I prefer. I can purchase a less expensive high quality oil and change 2x for the same as or less cost than some others doing one oil service because I change myself.

 

[Idahoktm]

That's what I figured. It was your opinion, rather than facts. I just needed to verify. It would be different if you had a copy of a FCA study that showed FCA was willing to accept a higher failure rate, just to make a very small gain in mpg's.

I'm not willing to buy into the conspiracy theory that FCA would change to an oil grade that's detrimental to engine longevity, just to eek out another .001 mpg.

I addressed your comment about the oil filter location in an earlier post. That location was determined well before the 5th Gen Ram was born. I'm sure it's quite expensive to redesign the engine block to relocate the filter. The current spot is inconvenient, but it's free and proven. They could add a remote filter kit to our trucks, but that would just introduce one more failure point.

You need to do what makes you happy. Most of us will follow the manufacturers recommendation. Some are stuck in the past, thinking thicker oil is better, because that's what they have been using since the 70's. It's up to you, but the safe bet is going with the manufacturers recommended viscosity.

 

[Anarki]

2022 is the first model year that 5.7L’s recommend oil weight changed to 0w20

That's good to know, thanks for pointing it out. I'm also happy to start seeing oil analysis reports being posted. I hope this continues on with all of our favorite flavors of oil, and we can compare notes on how our engines progress with what we have chosen.

My prediction is that anything 5w30 to 0w20 will be the range most people will find to be great long term oils.