2019 Ram 1500 5th wheel towing

[Willwork4truck]

When I was curious about 1/2 ton 5th wheels, I was looking(not very hard) and it was hard to find any that were even close to 1,000lb pin weight. Sure you might be able to look but is it going to be worth the pain to find or expense to have built?
Seems you would be limited to having driver only or you have to have a stripped down truck to pull a 5th wheel with these trucks.

I figure I can upgrade to a 5th wheel in 5-10 years when I upgrade to, most likely, a 1-ton dually.

Yep, thats what it means. A decent sized 5 ver needs a 2500 for the pin weight alone. Or like a previous poster said, ignore the payload and get some air bags. (Then it can tow anything...).
Wonder why RAM confuses things with building a 2500 and 3500 series when folks can tow 29-30 foot fith wheels and use their 1500.’s. Their engineers just don't know much...

 

[jdefoe0424]

Yep, thats what it means. A decent sized 5 ver needs a 2500 for the pin weight alone. Or like a previous poster said, ignore the payload and get some air bags. (Then it can tow anything...).
Wonder why RAM confuses things with building a 2500 and 3500 series when folks can tow 29-30 foot fith wheels and use their 1500.’s. Their engineers just don't know much...

Yes and no...the engineers know how to spec a truck for a specific set of uses, note how Ram says little about 5th wheels for 1500s while the other makers put specs out for them.

Yes, you can tow a 5er with a 1500, but most people aren't looking to drive just themselves with a trailer in a stripped down truck. The majority of people hauling them around want the comforts of a higher trim and to bring their family with to the campground

Also, the limit for a standard truck plate in Illinois is 8k gvwr. That happens to be the gvwr of a Hemi Ram 1500 4x4.

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[DavidNJ]

The tr

Yep, thats what it means. A decent sized 5 ver needs a 2500 for the pin weight alone. Or like a previous poster said, ignore the payload and get some air bags. (Then it can tow anything...).
Wonder why RAM confuses things with building a 2500 and 3500 series when folks can tow 29-30 foot fith wheels and use their 1500.’s. Their engineers just don't know much...

The truck specs are written for legal and insurance purposes. I've posed a link to an article comparing 2500 and 3500 trucks across brands. In all brands, the SRW models are virtually identical except for spring rate. Minor transmission differences, but those are usually heavy trans in 3500 DRW models which these days are rated for over 30k GCVW.

The key? The 2500 has to be under 10k GVWR to be a Class 2b truck. There is also maneuvering around 26k and 33k GCVW which affects driver licensing requirements.

The 1500 is Class 2a. That goes to 8500 GVWR but most of these trucks are used as daily commuters. They get passenger car tires and soft springs. And that dictates the GAWR which restricts GVWR.

A bigger annoyance is the lack of OE gooseneck/5th wheel prep. On the HD trucks, Ram is a bit annoying in not offering them with the Rambox. However, at least they have the spots on the bed and supports under the bed to install the pucks and gooseneck ball on the Rambox afterwards. On the 1500, no provisions or parts.

A 1500 isn't going to be an HD. The SRW rear GAWR on a Ram 3500 is 7000lb. It is downrated to 6000lb on the 2500 with the same axle/tires/brakes/engine/etc. Cummins owner can be surprised to see their HD truck with a 2000lb payload on the door sticker caused by the 10000# GVWR constraint. While tires are the final constraint on the OE truck, wheels are the final constraint on a prepped 1500 and maybe a constraint on the 3500. The 3500 has 8-lug wheels with a 3600lb load capacity. The most on the Ram 6-lug wheels is 2650, and a buyer would need to search that out. That is also apparent on the trailers. 5000# axles have 6-lug wheels, 7000# axles have 8-lug wheels.

One thing not discussed much here is the rear roll stiffness. 5th wheel enclosed trailers are tall, with the RVs approaching the height of semi trailers. Thats a lot of roll moment on the hitch.. Supplemental air springs replace the bump rubbers which are inside the regular springs on a 1500. That means for a given virtual stiffness/load they have less roll resistance. Even with regular springs, the roll of the trailer can be an issue. Therefore, the rear anti-roll bar is often a factor.

 

[Willwork4truck]

The tr


The truck specs are written for legal and insurance purposes. I've posed a link to an article comparing 2500 and 3500 trucks across brands. In all brands, the SRW models are virtually identical except for spring rate. Minor transmission differences, but those are usually heavy trans in 3500 DRW models which these days are rated for over 30k GCVW.

The key? The 2500 has to be under 10k GVWR to be a Class 2b truck. There is also maneuvering around 26k and 33k GCVW which affects driver licensing requirements.

The 1500 is Class 2a. That goes to 8500 GVWR but most of these trucks are used as daily commuters. They get passenger car tires and soft springs. And that dictates the GAWR which restricts GVWR.

A bigger annoyance is the lack of OE gooseneck/5th wheel prep. On the HD trucks, Ram is a bit annoying in not offering them with the Rambox. However, at least they have the spots on the bed and supports under the bed to install the pucks and gooseneck ball on the Rambox afterwards. On the 1500, no provisions or parts.

A 1500 isn't going to be an HD. The SRW rear GAWR on a Ram 3500 is 7000lb. It is downrated to 6000lb on the 2500 with the same axle/tires/brakes/engine/etc. Cummins owner can be surprised to see their HD truck with a 2000lb payload on the door sticker caused by the 10000# GVWR constraint. While tires are the final constraint on the OE truck, wheels are the final constraint on a prepped 1500 and maybe a constraint on the 3500. The 3500 has 8-lug wheels with a 3600lb load capacity. The most on the Ram 6-lug wheels is 2650, and a buyer would need to search that out. That is also apparent on the trailers. 5000# axles have 6-lug wheels, 7000# axles have 8-lug wheels.

One thing not discussed much here is the rear roll stiffness. 5th wheel enclosed trailers are tall, with the RVs approaching the height of semi trailers. Thats a lot of roll moment on the hitch.. Supplemental air springs replace the bump rubbers which are inside the regular springs on a 1500. That means for a given virtual stiffness/load they have less roll resistance. Even with regular springs, the roll of the trailer can be an issue. Therefore, the rear anti-roll bar is often a factor.

Thanks for an intelligent discussion about truck capabilities. My tongue in cheek response is due to the plethora of owners who insist on endangering themselves and others with their overloaded 150/1500 series trucks towing 9K plus trailers as well as a cab full of passengers and stuff.
It's not the strength of the drivetrain. Modern engines and 8-10 speed transmissions are fantastic as compared to 20-30 years ago offerings. There are much bigger diameter wheels which sometimes translates into larger brakes (not always). Frames have been stiffened with "exotic" high strength alloys. All this has helped the 150/1500 series be able to move loads that were strictly a 250/2500 level truck as little as 10-15 years ago. Unfortunately, the maximums for both payload and gcvwr seem to be about there now. Notice that rear end ratio's are actually lower (3.73 is about max on a 150/1500 except for RAM) than they were 20 years ago (due to transmission gearing). Payloads have in most cases stayed about the same as interiors have gotten heavier (and with the addition of full-sized crew cabs).
Yet TT and 5ver buyers continue to purchase multi-slide 28-32 foot trailers and attempt to tow. Just like the Tundra "pulling" the space shuttle, our new trucks can move the objects, they just aren't so great at stopping them and dealing with the effects of wind load (frontal area) and side winds. When the "tail is wagging the dog" as in trailers both longer and heavier than the tow unit, there's problems.

Modifications abound on the aftermarket. An owner can enhance their suspension, engine and handling to a high degree, yet nothing changes the overall axle and frame strengths/limits, as well as brakes and rim capacities.

I see many stock 250/2500 and 350/3500 trucks on the freeway towing triple axle trailers. They are almost always quite low in the bed, headlights illuminating the space station. It's just spooky seeing the 150/1500's out there trying to emulate their bigger brothers. Years ago (20) in Canada (BC) the RCMP would do roadside inspections (much like DUI checkpoints) and I would see trucks pulled over on the side of the road with their trailers uncoupled, obviously having exceeded their rear axle rating, GCVW or GCVWR. Quote from an rv.net thread on towing: "

Posted By: romore on 02/15/17 10:23am

An F-150 pulling a 30 plus foot fiver WILL draw unwanted attention here from the RCMP. Ditto for an 8' overhead TC on a 1500 with a 6-1/2 foot box. If the weights exceed the numbers on the door sticker, the unit will get parked. We got stopped in a blitz, they checked our registration and waved us through but one unit was being weighed.

and this one:

Posted By: John / Angela on 02/16/17 08:06am

We see truck campers get nailed for overweight from time to time. There are a few choke points. One close to the BC Alberta border another close to an underpass near us. If it doesn't look right "big slide type campers on 3/4 ton trucks etc, they will weigh them with 4 scales and have them offload. You will see the campers on the side of the road from time to time at the pull outs. No idea what the fine is. They do RV stings in BC. No safety chains, no battery on the trailer, safety pin in the hitch, lights, no brake control etc. I like it. 2003 Revolution 40C Class A. Electric smart car as a Toad on a smart car trailer Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take but rather by the moments that take our breath away.

One of these days the revenue hungry DOT here will begin doing the same things. They already do it with commercial vehicles like landscape trucks and trailers licensed over 10K, I read about a lot of NJ and PA landscape contractors who get hassled/stopped with their dual axle enclosed trailers (landscape forums)..
Won't be long folks...

 

[DavidNJ]

Canada did pass a lot of provincial laws on the GVWR. I haven't seen any court cases on how the GVWR is calculated after mods.

The law is different for commercial vehicles over 10k, 26k, and 33k. Basically, a CDL of the correct glass is required, commercial markings required if commercial, and it is required to go to required weigh stations. There are state laws and federal laws on this.

However, the frames and the axle housings aren't the issue for loads under the GCWR. At 17100, the Ram 1500 GVWR is high enough that shouldn't be a problem with any sane trailer. However, there are no standards or rule of them for trailer CG height or sail area. A flatbed gooseneck carrying lumber pallets or cars is going to be different from a 13' foot high, 30 foot long RV which is all sail with lots of turbulence on the roof from A/C units and other gear. For the Ford Heavy Duty Payload and Ram Max Towing packages, the only part of the rear end that is upgraded is the center housing to a bigger diff. I think it from 9.25" to 9.75" Dana 60 on the Ram and 8.8" to 10" on the Ford. It is likely a durability issue in extreme use and not related to safety.

But everyone always seems a step behind in towing safety. Examples are electric drum brakes (when was the last time you same an electric brake on a car?), no ABS, leaf spring suspensions, etc.

Let's say you swap out the tires for Falken A/T3W LT285/55-20 Load Range E, capacity 3305@80psi. Mount them on Method Racing wheels rated for 2650 lb. Then added Timber Grove supplemental airbags and inflated them to handle maybe 1500lb-2000lb with the 4-corner air suspension (so the suspension saw 3200lb -3800lb load vs. 2300-2600lb unloaded. Maybe add a Hellwing rear anti-rollbar. Even with 600lb of passengers, these should still handle 1600lb-2000lb for the pin and keep under 3900# front, 5200# rear GAWR. I doubt the 1000 extra pounds of a 2500 would make any meaningful difference in stability.

 

[Willwork4truck]

Canada did pass a lot of provincial laws on the GVWR. I haven't seen any court cases on how the GVWR is calculated after mods.

The law is different for commercial vehicles over 10k, 26k, and 33k. Basically, a CDL of the correct glass is required, commercial markings required if commercial, and it is required to go to required weigh stations. There are state laws and federal laws on this.

However, the frames and the axle housings aren't the issue for loads under the GCWR. At 17100, the Ram 1500 GVWR is high enough that shouldn't be a problem with any sane trailer. However, there are no standards or rule of them for trailer CG height or sail area. A flatbed gooseneck carrying lumber pallets or cars is going to be different from a 13' foot high, 30 foot long RV which is all sail with lots of turbulence on the roof from A/C units and other gear. For the Ford Heavy Duty Payload and Ram Max Towing packages, the only part of the rear end that is upgraded is the center housing to a bigger diff. I think it from 9.25" to 9.75" Dana 60 on the Ram and 8.8" to 10" on the Ford. It is likely a durability issue in extreme use and not related to safety.

But everyone always seems a step behind in towing safety. Examples are electric drum brakes (when was the last time you same an electric brake on a car?), no ABS, leaf spring suspensions, etc.

Let's say you swap out the tires for Falken A/T3W LT285/55-20 Load Range E, capacity 3305@80psi. Mount them on Method Racing wheels rated for 2650 lb. Then added Timber Grove supplemental airbags and inflated them to handle maybe 1500lb-2000lb with the 4-corner air suspension (so the suspension saw 3200lb -3800lb load vs. 2300-2600lb unloaded. Maybe add a Hellwing rear anti-rollbar. Even with 600lb of passengers, these should still handle 1600lb-2000lb for the pin and keep under 3900# front, 5200# rear GAWR. I doubt the 1000 extra pounds of a 2500 would make any meaningful difference in stability.

Agree with all save the last point. When your tow rig is too light it handles poorly. Just ask F150 owners from 2015... there were many who said the 6-700 pound weight reduction made towing less than pleasant.

 

[DavidNJ]

Agree with all save the last poibt. When your tow rig is too light it handles poorly. Just ask F150 owners from 2015... there were many who said the 6-700 pound weight reduction made towing less than pleasant.

They were encountering a different problem. I've been looking at 1500/2500/3500 models (all SRW but I'm DRW aware) from Ram, Ford (new HD), and GMC (also new HD). I can't stomach the looks of the Chevy but if the made the Suburban 3500HD available and with an appropriate tow rating (it is fleet only, 11,400# GVWR with 4000+# payload, but only 4000# max trailer) I may be swayed.

This is for 6'4" bed 4x4 Crew Cabs, max gas engine, SRW

Model	GVWR	Curb Weight	Payload	Rear GAWR	Rear Weight	GCWR	Max Trailer
1500	7100	5417	1680	4100	2158	17000	11250
2500	10000	6317	3680	6000	2625	24000	17210
3500	11000	6728	4270	7000	2876	24000	16800

First thing that is obvious, the 2500 and 3500 weight 900 and 1300 pounds more, but have GCWR 7000# higher. If weight were an issue, that difference isn't explained.

People hurt the handling of their vehicles all the time with ill-considered or poorly executed modifications. And pieces do have limits. In off-road use, axle tubes are replaced with larger diameter/thicker tubes because they can't handle the stress. Not a problem here.

The limiting factors are wheels, tires, and springs. The 11,400# GVWR Suburban 3500 has the same 8-lug wheels as a 3500 pickup. But it is still a Suburban.

The 2500/3500 frame is stronger than the 1500. If someone put 3500 axles in the rear and ran a 7000# load on them the axle wouldn't break but the frame might. But that's not what we are talking about.

Between the hitch, tires, wheels, supplemental air springs, etc. and installation the bill will be over $5k. A 2500 or 3500 gas pickup is less as an increment over the 1500. The 2500 Ram comes with the gooseneck hitch/5th wheel pucks, rear air suspension, LT tires, 8-lug wheels from the factory for less money than the 1500 with the mods. The key is the 1500 is easier to live with when it isn't towing.

 

[Willwork4truck]

They were encountering a different problem. I've been looking at 1500/2500/3500 models (all SRW but I'm DRW aware) from Ram, Ford (new HD), and GMC (also new HD). I can't stomach the looks of the Chevy but if the made the Suburban 3500HD available and with an appropriate tow rating (it is fleet only, 11,400# GVWR with 4000+# payload, but only 4000# max trailer) I may be swayed.

This is for 6'4" bed 4x4 Crew Cabs, max gas engine, SRW

Model	GVWR	Curb Weight	Payload	Rear GAWR	Rear Weight	GCWR	Max Trailer
1500	7100	5417	1680	4100	2158	17000	11250
2500	10000	6317	3680	6000	2625	24000	17210
3500	11000	6728	4270	7000	2876	24000	16800

First thing that is obvious, the 2500 and 3500 weight 900 and 1300 pounds more, but have GCWR 7000# higher. If weight were an issue, that difference isn't explained.

People hurt the handling of their vehicles all the time with ill-considered or poorly executed modifications. And pieces do have limits. In off-road use, axle tubes are replaced with larger diameter/thicker tubes because they can't handle the stress. Not a problem here.

The limiting factors are wheels, tires, and springs. The 11,400# GVWR Suburban 3500 has the same 8-lug wheels as a 3500 pickup. But it is still a Suburban.

The 2500/3500 frame is stronger than the 1500. If someone put 3500 axles in the rear and ran a 7000# load on them the axle wouldn't break but the frame might. But that's not what we are talking about.

Between the hitch, tires, wheels, supplemental air springs, etc. and installation the bill will be over $5k. A 2500 or 3500 gas pickup is less as an increment over the 1500. The 2500 Ram comes with the gooseneck hitch/5th wheel pucks, rear air suspension, LT tires, 8-lug wheels from the factory for less money than the 1500 with the mods. The key is the 1500 is easier to live with when it isn't towing.

Exactly. The last sentence. Used to be people lived with the stiffer ride of the HD truck for its towing ability. They had a nice riding family car for the rest. What changed was the trend towards cc pickups replacing the family car, so all the options once chosen in the car get put onto the truck.

One vehicle doesn't do both jobs as well as two purpose built ones. Trouble is, at $50-60K, people struggle to have 2. How many driveways have 100 G’s parked in them? (Probably more than you'd think but that’s not a RAM forum discussion).

 

[devildodge]

There is a granite crystal tradesman quad cab here, towing a fifth wheel. I believe it is the same one I said about before. It looks like the perfect setup.

The f150 a few sites away, looks like a setup for a diesel dually.

Interesting setups people use and still feel it is comfortable.

 

[SacRebel]

I wanted to see if I can get some advice on a 5th wheel hitch.

I have a Rebel with the ORP that has a max trailer weight of 11,330 lbs. I have yet to purchase a 5th wheel trailer as I'm in the research phase right now.

In regards to the hitch I see some Mopar ones. Are there any advantages to buying a Mopar hitch versus a third party one? The trailer is going to be parked semi-permanently and won't be towed very often. With that said, what are my options on a hitch that can be removed when not being used?

 

[PMantle]

I towed two 5ers with GM/GMC 1/2 tons for 12 years. I loved my Curt hitch. I removed it easily after every camping trip.

 

[Trooper4]

34' fiver and a 1500 Limited. B&W and Andersen Ultimate hitch. 10 mpg on 2500 miles and NO problems. Tow what you are comfortable with, but a 2500/3500 is definitely not required.

 

[Willwork4truck]

Thats certainly an attractive 5 er. Whats the pin weight and rear axle weights? The frontal sail is nicely curved which does help you out.
I fully realize that people will "tow what they want to tow" and often there's a big economic and comfort argument for the 1500 as the TV. IMHO I just would prefer people opt for the gasser 2500 (diesels don't give that much payload addition) or move up to the DRW 3500 if a diesel.

If one stays out of the mts and doesn't drive 80 mph then maybe it's ok. However I have seen the swaying rigs (usually due to poorly weighed and set up hitches and improper tongue weights) going down the road and it's an accident waiting' to happen.
Yours seems like it's the best of what can be done, good hitch etc as long as you aren't exceeding suspension/tire capabilities.

Enjoy your trailer and your Ltd. (Well, it appears you do already!) I don't want people thinking that I'm constantly negative about 1500's towing. If properly set up they can usually do the job adequately, just how many people really get their set up correctly? If you do (and it appears you did) then "drive on".

 

[PMantle]

Lots of people worry about the ability to stop. A good 5er with brakes properly set stops as well or even better than a bare truck. Well, that's what It seemed like to me-I did not actually test it.

 

[Willwork4truck]

Lots of people worry about the ability to stop. A good 5er with brakes properly set stops as well or even better than a bare truck. Well, that's what It seemed like to me-I did not actually test it.

Yes, being properly set up for braking, same thing with the WD and sway control hitches, properly E rated and inflated tires etc. You can definitely get your tow rig ready to do the job, it just takes time to get it set up properly. Doing a brake test (adjustment) on the trailer is very important, and depending on how you load it, the driver has to make sure the brakes don't lock up too easily.
This is a decent summary article, up to date and comments on the built in brake controllers that you can get from the big 3:

Pickup Trucks 101: Trailer Brake Controllers | PickupTrucks.com

Check out our primer on trailer brake controllers if you're considering doing a lot of towing.

news.pickuptrucks.com

The HD Ram towing forum section has this good thread: https://www.ramforumz.com/threads/trailer-brake-controller-setting.253109/

 

[silver billet]

34' fiver and a 1500 Limited. B&W and Andersen Ultimate hitch. 10 mpg on 2500 miles and NO problems. Tow what you are comfortable with, but a 2500/3500 is definitely not required.

There is a difference between towing a trailer under normal conditions, and controlling a trailer under extreme/emergency conditions.

You are way over on your payload; 9000 lbs * 20% = 1800 lbs tongue weight, that's just the trailer. Now add hitch, cargo and passengers, probably north of 2200 pounds... on a fully decked out limited which has what, max 1300 pounds payload?

This is the definition of "too little of a truck", and others reading this should not follow your example. They make 2500's for this very scenario.

 

[Willwork4truck]

The questions I would ask would be:
What does his trailer actually weigh, loaded for the trip?
What does he plan on having in the truck over the weight of the driver (max 200#)?
What does his hitch and safety chains weigh?
What is his rear axle maximum?
What is his payload (actual yellow sticker on door jamb) maximum?
What load range/max load capacity tires does he have on the truck?

Since there's none of that information given, everyone is guessing.

Maybe he has an ultralight 5th wheel with only 1 slide, and perhaps he doesn't take any fresh water with him (gets it at the campsite), nor does he have 2 big 40# tanks full of propane.
Perhaps it's just him and the petite missus, with next to no other gear.
Big difference from 3 slide unit and the family of 4 or 5 loaded for bear with full freshwater tanks and food for a week...

His 5'er could gvwr anywhere from 9500 - 15K.. But even taking an empty 5'er at 9500# with nothing in the truck and no passenger, that's over the (stated) trucks payload. Air bags level but don't add payload. Good hitches transfer a portion of the weight however everyone carries stuff with them so that evens out, or worse.

Can it be towed? Yes
Can it be stopped (on level dry roads), Yes,
How will the combo react to high winds, passing semi's or emergency lane maneuvers? Anyone's guess...
Do people do it all the time? Yes
Is it illegal? Not really, US LEO's don't enforce weight limits and some experts will say that GCVWR's are only "suggestions", not hard and fast maximums. (PS - Insurance companies don't deny claims due to overweight truck/railer combinations, that's called operator "negligence" and that's what the liability portion of your policy is designed for. If there's no negligence on your part, then there's no payout to the other party. They also don't deny collision losses due to overweight or unsafe conditions (they'd love to but cannot).
Do most owners prefer a nice riding 1500? Yes
Do owners want the harsher ride when empty leaf springed 250/2500 or 350/3500? No

It's just the choices and gambles that people make. Now if you want to be more "prudent" then maybe follow established guidelines:
This from etrailer.com:
What Percent of a 5th Wheel Trailer King Pin Should be the Tongue Weight
Question:
I am purchasing a new 5th wheel trailer and concerned about the king pin weight. For every pound I put in the cargo bay located between the trailers axles and the king pin, what percent should of that pound would be added to the king pin?
asked by: James F
Expert Reply:
A basic rule to go by is that the tongue weight of a 5th wheel trailer is about 20 percent of the gross trailer weight. (Some sites now say 25%)
*************************************
From another site (general article): https://camperreport.com/average-weight-of-a-fifth-wheel-trailer-with-18-examples/
Mid-Profile Fifth Wheels
Weights of mid-profile fifth wheels will be 10,000 to 14,000 pounds with a length of 33’ to 41’. In choosing a mid-profile over a lightweight, the decision can be a matter of lifestyle needs, upgrades and floor plan. These fifth wheels may have more slides, Corian (hard surface) countertops, residential-sized refrigerators, upgraded furniture, crown molding, computer work stations, generous bunk rooms, king-sized bed, larger black/gray/fresh water tanks which, in the end, will add to a longer length and more weight than their lightweight cousins.
Examples:

• Keystone Montana 3720RL – 13,329 lbs., 39.7 ft.
• Heartland Pioneer – 11,010 lbs., 39.8 ft.
• Grand Design Reflection 337RLS – 10,570 lbs., 35.6 ft.

*************************************
YMMV, these discussions (to put it mildly) will never cease.

 

[silver billet]

... snipped quote for brevity ...

His signature says "# 9000". I take that to mean 9000 pounds. If that is correct, then with my quite conservative estimates, dude is almost 1000 pounds or more over his payload. Completely nuts, there is no way to sugar coat or excuse that.

 

[NordicNevs]

This thread is gross


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[silver billet]

This thread is gross

I'm not commenting on his rims or paint job or anything else that's subjective; people's lives are at stake, his and/or other newbies who come in, read the thread, and get the wrong idea.

But I get the hint and I'll move on.