Will the new turbo 6 replace the Hemi?

[HeliPilot]

Personally, I don't give too much of a rip about sound. I would rather have actual performance than sound, any day. Really, I want my truck to be quiet. And haul ***. I would also like it to accelerate briskly-to-hard when I tip into the pedal, without having to press more and more, waiting for it to downshift before it finally gets up and goes.

What I would like to see is, rather than a small 6 with a turbo (e.g. 3.5L EcoBoost), I would like to see a small-ish V8 turbo. Like, something in the 4.0 to 5.0L V8 range - with a turbo that doesn't need huge boost numbers (nor require Premium gas) in order for the engine to make really good power.

My ex had a Mercedes GLA250. That has a 2.0L turbo I-4. It is only spec'ed at 208 HP. But, that thing was actually quite fun to drive because it was tuned to make good torque that started from pretty darn low RPMs. And it would (did) blow the doors off my RAM with a Hemi. Imagine what RAM *could* do with a small block V8 and a turbo - and the right tuning.

But you're not going to tow your boat/camper with a well tuned turbo-4 without cooking the internals. And, in stop and go traffic, the turbo lag in a full size 6000+lb truck is a real and unpleasant thing. On a side note, my buddy towed a vehicle across country with an Eco-6. When he got home, he relayed that the truck towed just fine, but that when he shut down, he could smell the turbo's cooking from being in boost the entire trip. He traded it in for a Superduty the following day.

 

[Timeless]

Inline 6's are great for pickups, they have good torque, less moving parts. I could be wrong but it sounds like they have an ecoboost-like design.

I'm not a fan of smaller displacement direct injection turbo gas engines. They put out lots of hp and tq but fuel economy is suspect when they are worked, the engines sound funky, and then there's those issues of oil dilution and piston/valve carbon build up. Ford recently adding dual port injection (2017?) to help wash down the valves etc.

If I wanted a turbo 6 I'd have bought a Ford. That eco boost makes a lot of power but it sounds like . . . let's just say I don't like it. Dropping the Hemi would hurt Ram as a whole I would think. Maybe offer a turbo 6 as an option to the Hemi but not replace the Hemi. Without a rumbling V8 it's just not right.

Ford does still offer the Coyote v8 on their trucks...so I would bet RAM would do that as well for a while until people quit buying them.

 

[jdmartin]

Gentlemen (and ladies, as it may be), we are the last branch on this tree. The people coming behind us barely care about driving, much less about engine size in vehicles. The reason they can sell $40k+ trucks is because the demographic buying them is largely between 40-60 years old, and thus has money, remembers when cars/trucks could be worked on in the garage and tuned, were exciting to mess around with. Most people younger than 30 couldn't give two craps if there's an engine or a couple of guys pedaling in the engine bay, as long as it gets them where they want to go.

Someone above it said it: very soon most trucks will either be electric or very small engines, perhaps with turbo or hybrid technology. Big ICEs will be limited to towing or heavy duty fleet use and will be expensive. Part of it is fuel economy, part is changing attitudes about conservation, but most of it will simply be that the younger demographic doesn't care about that stuff. I know a lot of people who have kids/grandkids in that age bracket, like mine, and they just don't care about cars. A lot of them don't even bother getting their driver's license unless they need it for a job.

 

[devildodge]

@jdmartin, I couldn't agree more.

Except, for the 6 year old son of mine. He eats, breathes and sleeps the Mopar world. Monster trucks are more important to him than air some times. He can tell you more about RAM trucks than 50% of this forum and probably more about Mopar than 90%. We go to Chrysler at Carlisle, Truck Nationals at Carlisle and Bloomsburg 4x4 Jamboree religiously every year. And attending those shows...He is not alone. There are quite a few kids, and 20 to 30 somethings, really into Mopar and 4x4 trucks.

But, alas 3 of my cousins, 3 of my nephews could absolutely care less about driving and even less about cars.

It will be just like the 80s for awhile, then the Hemi will rekindle the memory of some now adult kid who remembers his dad or mom making that old truck just roar down the straight 2 lane road...and we will have the HEMI AGAIN...I was told all cars would be flying by now...haven't seen them at the local dealer yet.

And, to be honest, I secretly hope( all while praying they don't ) gas prices go up and truck popularity goes down...so I can get some more 4th Gen Rams in my stable and a 5th Gen to enjoy aswell.

The Inline 6 is going to work well, in chargers,challenger's, the Wagoneer Twins and the Limited and Laramie RAMs. But the V8 will still be there for the real work and play vehicles. It will be along time before they go away.

 

[Firebird]

Gentlemen (and ladies, as it may be), we are the last branch on this tree. The people coming behind us barely care about driving, much less about engine size in vehicles. The reason they can sell $40k+ trucks is because the demographic buying them is largely between 40-60 years old, and thus has money, remembers when cars/trucks could be worked on in the garage and tuned, were exciting to mess around with. Most people younger than 30 couldn't give two craps if there's an engine or a couple of guys pedaling in the engine bay, as long as it gets them where they want to go.

Someone above it said it: very soon most trucks will either be electric or very small engines, perhaps with turbo or hybrid technology. Big ICEs will be limited to towing or heavy duty fleet use and will be expensive. Part of it is fuel economy, part is changing attitudes about conservation, but most of it will simply be that the younger demographic doesn't care about that stuff. I know a lot of people who have kids/grandkids in that age bracket, like mine, and they just don't care about cars. A lot of them don't even bother getting their driver's license unless they need it for a job.

This is spot on

 

[StuartV]

Its not about finding a way to put the hemi tag on a 6 cyl engine so much as its about keeping to the standard they set as a Hemi being a V8.

The Marketing Department called. They beg to differ... LOL

But you're not going to tow your boat/camper with a well tuned turbo-4 without cooking the internals. And, in stop and go traffic, the turbo lag in a full size 6000+lb truck is a real and unpleasant thing. On a side note, my buddy towed a vehicle across country with an Eco-6. When he got home, he relayed that the truck towed just fine, but that when he shut down, he could smell the turbo's cooking from being in boost the entire trip. He traded it in for a Superduty the following day.

Who said anything about towing with a turbo-4?

Turbo lag is a real and unpleasant thing in any vehicle that wasn't designed well. But, the notion that you can't build a truck engine with a turbo that works well, for normal driving and for "doing truck things" is, I think, silly. Big trucks drive millions of miles with turbo engines. Do you think that just being diesel means it can have a turbo and "work", but being gas means it can't have a turbo and still "work"? Does a turbocharger know or care whether it's blowing into a gas engine vs a diesel engine?

It's all in the design and tuning. It's like the notion that long stroke motors will have good torque but not a good top end. And short stroke motors can have good top end, but not good torque. That's all baloney. You CAN build a long stroke motor that is ALL top end. And you CAN build a short stroke motor with a fat bottom and no top end.

I said I would like to have a 4 - 5 liter V8 with a turbo. Or dual turbos. I do not believe there is any technical reason that FCA (or Ford, or anybody else) couldn't build a truck engine with those specs that didn't work great for towing AND also have good drivability (i.e. lag that is just fine). Especially now that they've got the "mild hybrid" thing going on, so there is the potential to use that eTorque battery pack to spin up an electric turbo and totally eliminate lag.

 

[HeliPilot]

The Marketing Department called. They beg to differ... LOL



Who said anything about towing with a turbo-4?

Turbo lag is a real and unpleasant thing in any vehicle that wasn't designed well. But, the notion that you can't build a truck engine with a turbo that works well, for normal driving and for "doing truck things" is, I think, silly. Big trucks drive millions of miles with turbo engines. Do you think that just being diesel means it can have a turbo and "work", but being gas means it can't have a turbo and still "work"? Does a turbocharger know or care whether it's blowing into a gas engine vs a diesel engine?

It's all in the design and tuning. It's like the notion that long stroke motors will have good torque but not a good top end. And short stroke motors can have good top end, but not good torque. That's all baloney. You CAN build a long stroke motor that is ALL top end. And you CAN build a short stroke motor with a fat bottom and no top end.

I said I would like to have a 4 - 5 liter V8 with a turbo. Or dual turbos. I do not believe there is any technical reason that FCA (or Ford, or anybody else) couldn't build a truck engine with those specs that didn't work great for towing AND also have good drivability (i.e. lag that is just fine). Especially now that they've got the "mild hybrid" thing going on, so there is the potential to use that eTorque battery pack to spin up an electric turbo and totally eliminate lag.

Have had plenty turbo diesels in my day, without any issue. They also did not behave like my Eco-boost 6 which is why I don’t have one anymore. You brought a turbo 4 into conversation for comparison, and my point is exactly yours...apples to oranges. The turbo 4 wasn’t pulling around a 6000 LB truck, so I’m sure it was fun. I personally did not like the turbo 6 in my truck, to do truck things. Each to his/her own though. The manners of the 5.7 8 speed are much more compliant for daily driving than the 3.5l turbo 10 speed...at least in my experience.

 

[silver64]

The Marketing Department called. They beg to differ... LOL



Who said anything about towing with a turbo-4?

Turbo lag is a real and unpleasant thing in any vehicle that wasn't designed well. But, the notion that you can't build a truck engine with a turbo that works well, for normal driving and for "doing truck things" is, I think, silly. Big trucks drive millions of miles with turbo engines. Do you think that just being diesel means it can have a turbo and "work", but being gas means it can't have a turbo and still "work"? Does a turbocharger know or care whether it's blowing into a gas engine vs a diesel engine?

It's all in the design and tuning. It's like the notion that long stroke motors will have good torque but not a good top end. And short stroke motors can have good top end, but not good torque. That's all baloney. You CAN build a long stroke motor that is ALL top end. And you CAN build a short stroke motor with a fat bottom and no top end.

I said I would like to have a 4 - 5 liter V8 with a turbo. Or dual turbos. I do not believe there is any technical reason that FCA (or Ford, or anybody else) couldn't build a truck engine with those specs that didn't work great for towing AND also have good drivability (i.e. lag that is just fine). Especially now that they've got the "mild hybrid" thing going on, so there is the potential to use that eTorque battery pack to spin up an electric turbo and totally eliminate lag.

I guess we will see what the marketing weasels come up with but hey Ford is calling an electric thingy a mustang!

 

[Richard320]

There is no way to know and it is pointless to speculate.

Some of us are old enough to remember when the end of the V8 was predicted. The Ford Probe was supposed to be the new Mustang --4 cylinder, no less. That didn't come to pass.

I remember when Diesels were the future. Everyone scrambled to shove one under the hood. I remember a Lincoln Continental with a 6 cylinder Diesel. Ford Tempo Diesel. And who can ever forget those horrid Olds Diesels that turned everyone off Diesels for decades?

Instead of the end of the gasoline V8 and the dawn of the Diesel era, we started seeing gasoline V10s. Twenty years ago nobody would have believed there would be 6.4L V8s in passenger cars in the year 2019, let alone the horsepower numbers.

 

[HeliPilot]

HOLY CRAP, completely forgot about the Cutass Diesel Supreme my mom had, LMAO, what a POS

 

[StuartV]

Have had plenty turbo diesels in my day, without any issue. They also did not behave like my Eco-boost 6 which is why I don’t have one anymore. You brought a turbo 4 into conversation for comparison, and my point is exactly yours...apples to oranges. The turbo 4 wasn’t pulling around a 6000 LB truck, so I’m sure it was fun. I personally did not like the turbo 6 in my truck, to do truck things. Each to his/her own though. The manners of the 5.7 8 speed are much more compliant for daily driving than the 3.5l turbo 10 speed...at least in my experience.

I guess I didn't make my point about that clearly enough. The point of the turbo-4 example was to illustrate that you CAN build a turbo gas motor that drives nicely. That doesn't have such bad lag that it sucks to drive. Earlier posts seemed to be saying that it just is not possible to do that.

But, one of the requirements for that would be to build it without bowing to the Marketing Department and designing it to produce class-leading HP #s. It should have class-leading torque #s. At least, compared to its gas-engined competition. I suspect Ford's 3.5EB did just that. Compromised drivability for the sake of bigger HP #s, to appease Marketing.

Because who would buy a gas engine half-ton truck that only put out 300 HP....? Before experiencing the M-B turbo-4, I would not have even considered it. After experiencing it, I would be chomping at the bit to at least test drive one (a half-ton truck with a 4 or 5 liter turbo 6 or 8, even if it was only spec'ed at 300HP - but, really, with 4 or 5 liters displacement, they should be able to get closer to 400HP and still have very good drivability).

 

[HeliPilot]

Understood. We are two sides of the same coin, my experience put a bad taste in my mouth, and I am not chomping at the bit to experience again in this application.

 

[SD Rebel]

The 2.7L Ecoboost in my previous F150 was a jewel of a motor, very fast (faster than my RAM actually) while getting vastly better gas mileage. But you don' get both at the same time. You either have the power or fuel economy, should have been called "Eco-or-Boost".

That being said, it makes sense. You have the power when you need it for those few times you are towing, but if you take it easy, you can get pretty good mpg for a gas motor.

As for the RAM, the Hemi is too strong in the heritage and DNA of the current trucks to remove it. I think the I6 turbo will become another option, maybe like Ford they will make it the upgrade option in front of the V8 motor like their 3.5L Ecoboost motor which is position ahead of the Coyote V8, assuming it produces enough power to warrant it.

Right now, the V8 in the RAM 1500 lines makes up over 90% of uptake vs. the V6. They need a more fuel efficient motor that will have a higher uptake to improve their CAFE numbers.

 

[Psimpson]

You're going to continue to see a push towards forced induction, smaller displacement engines, hybrids and diesel. We are a decade or more behind Europe in that regard. You're also going to see fuel prices creep up as newer, more efficient technologies are introduced. Once the oil companies know you're willing to spend XXX dollars a week on fuel, they're going to keep that money from you regardless of how efficient any vehicle is.

You need to understand that oil is a commodity and is traded just like grain or beef or gold or any other commodity. Oil companies don't set the price, the market does.

Why do you think gasoline is so cheap now, it's because the United States is the leading oil producer in the world and there is a lot of supply.

 

[Patsy1099]

You need to understand that oil is a commodity and is traded just like grain or beef or gold or any other commodity. Oil companies don't set the price, the market does.

Why do you think gasoline is so cheap now, it's because the United States is the leading oil producer in the world and there is a lot of supply.

That is true but remember that the “free market” isn’t always free. The government, state or federal, will come in and tax the hell out of something if they a.) want to raise revenue, b.) want to punish you or c.) both a and b. That’s why California has some pretty expensive gas.

So depending on who is in power and what agenda they want to push, ie climate change/green new deal, there might be a “sin tax”. BUT if others have their say (and control) we will continue to drill shale, run pipelines, and pump black gold until it’s 5 cents a gallon (if your state government doesn’t slam you).

 

[iamtheav8r]

You need to understand that oil is a commodity and is traded just like grain or beef or gold or any other commodity. Oil companies don't set the price, the market does.

Why do you think gasoline is so cheap now, it's because the United States is the leading oil producer in the world and there is a lot of supply.

Really? Thanks for the lesson.

 

[Jako]

I guess I didn't make my point about that clearly enough. The point of the turbo-4 example was to illustrate that you CAN build a turbo gas motor that drives nicely. That doesn't have such bad lag that it sucks to drive. Earlier posts seemed to be saying that it just is not possible to do that.

But, one of the requirements for that would be to build it without bowing to the Marketing Department and designing it to produce class-leading HP #s. It should have class-leading torque #s. At least, compared to its gas-engined competition. I suspect Ford's 3.5EB did just that. Compromised drivability for the sake of bigger HP #s, to appease Marketing.

Because who would buy a gas engine half-ton truck that only put out 300 HP....? Before experiencing the M-B turbo-4, I would not have even considered it. After experiencing it, I would be chomping at the bit to at least test drive one (a half-ton truck with a 4 or 5 liter turbo 6 or 8, even if it was only spec'ed at 300HP - but, really, with 4 or 5 liters displacement, they should be able to get closer to 400HP and still have very good drivability).

2001 Dodge Ram SLT 230 hp, 2019 Ram 1500 Hemi 395 hp - how times have changed

 

[Richard320]

2001 Dodge Ram SLT 230 hp, 2019 Ram 1500 Hemi 395 hp - how times have changed

Go look at the HP ratings from the mid-1970s..... 225 HP out of a 440.

 

[Firebird]

Go look at the HP ratings from the mid-1970s..... 225 HP out of a 440.

These modern Hemi's are amazing engines!

 

[jdmartin]

@jdmartin, I couldn't agree more.

Except, for the 6 year old son of mine. He eats, breathes and sleeps the Mopar world. Monster trucks are more important to him than air some times. He can tell you more about RAM trucks than 50% of this forum and probably more about Mopar than 90%. We go to Chrysler at Carlisle, Truck Nationals at Carlisle and Bloomsburg 4x4 Jamboree religiously every year. And attending those shows...He is not alone. There are quite a few kids, and 20 to 30 somethings, really into Mopar and 4x4 trucks.

But, alas 3 of my cousins, 3 of my nephews could absolutely care less about driving and even less about cars.

It will be just like the 80s for awhile, then the Hemi will rekindle the memory of some now adult kid who remembers his dad or mom making that old truck just roar down the straight 2 lane road...and we will have the HEMI AGAIN...I was told all cars would be flying by now...haven't seen them at the local dealer yet.

And, to be honest, I secretly hope( all while praying they don't ) gas prices go up and truck popularity goes down...so I can get some more 4th Gen Rams in my stable and a 5th Gen to enjoy aswell.

The Inline 6 is going to work well, in chargers,challenger's, the Wagoneer Twins and the Limited and Laramie RAMs. But the V8 will still be there for the real work and play vehicles. It will be along time before they go away.

Timmy Wilson's "Jetpack"