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The NEW 5.7L HEMI with eTorque

go-ram

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So 400 watt-hours is a capacity rating of how long a battery can supply a given load. 400 watts can be output for 1 hour. Dependant on the battery's max current rating, the same battery could output 800 watts for 30 min or 1600 watts for 15 min. Doing the math, a 15hp load could be sustained for around 100 seconds.

Any 400 watt-hour ratted battery can ouput 400 watts for 1 hour. Thats 1,440,000 total watts expended. If (and it can't, due to current limiting) the battery where able to discharge in 60 seconds, it could drive a 32 HP motor during that time. We have a 12 to 15 hp motor so with that limit, it looks like its close to 100 seconds.

i could be wrong but my day job for the last 25 years has been as an Automation Engineer. I size drives and motors every day. Could still be wrong though.

1) You are confusing watts with joules. 0.4 kWh (=400 W*h) is indeed equivalent to 1,440,000 joules, because 1.0 watt is equivalent to 1.0 joule per second (J/s).

2) A 400 W*h battery can, theoretically, deliver 400 watts of power over the course of an hour, it can not deliver 1,440,000 watts in the course of an hour. What you are doing is mis-stating that the eTorque battery can output 1,440,000 watts in one hour, but in fact, it can, theoretically, deliver 1,440,000 JOULES in the course of one hour.

3) No hybrid battery is 100% available to the user. They ALL protect those expensive batteries by never even coming close to 100% discharging them. The vehicle control algorithms are designed to always keep the battery operating within its window of maximum longevity, NOT maximum possible performance.

For a bit of the introductory info from one horse's mouth (an FCA engineer on the eTorque), watch the video at this link:
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2018/0...em-works-in-the-2019-ram-1500-video.html#more
It's very clear that the 2019 Ram eTorque delivers fairly small, very controlled, amounts of power for very brief periods of time at different points in the truck's operating range. It's NOT a powerhouse, it's simply a smooth little booster here and there, with start/stop capability. Nowhere close to 1,440,000 watts in one hour.
 

ExcursionDiesel

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Never said it could deliver 1,440,000 watts "per hour" (continuously over an hour). That's would be a huge battery. I said theoritically it had that amount of total expendable energy, even mentioning current limits. Watts are inherently in seconds unless otherwise specified due to their realationship to Juoles per Sec as you mentioned. I believe we are saying the same thing differently.
 
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go-ram

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Never said it could deliver 1,440,000 watts "per hour" (continuously over an hour). That's would be a huge battery. I said theoritically it had that amount of total expendable energy, even mentioning current limits. Watts are inherently in seconds unless otherwise specified due to their realationship to Juoles per Sec as you mentioned. I believe we are saying the same thing differently.

To be clear, in a previous post you did state "Any 400 watt-hour ratted battery can ouput 400 watts for 1 hour. Thats 1,440,000 total watts expended."

I think what you meant to say was that a 400 W*h battery that can deliver 400 watts of power over the course of one hour will have expended 1,440,000 JOULES of energy (not watts of power). A battery that is rated at 400 W*h (0.4 kWh) can equivalently be said to contain 1,440,000 joules of energy.
 

john l.

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I'm a little confused by your calculations. I think it's not "watts per hour", rather it's "watt-hours" (i.e. watts times hours, more carefully written as watt*hours), and 400 watt-hours (=0.4 kWh) is a very small capacity compared to the kinetic energy of a moving 5,000 pound truck. And they will never give the user the full 400 W*h, they only give a small portion of that, in order to protect the battery itself for a long life (they have to warrant those batteries for at least 100,000 miles, I believe - but check on that for your state).

Another point of comparison, the first popular generation of Prius in the US had a 1.6 kWh hybrid battery, with a much larger electric motor than the 2019 Ram eTorque system, and the Prius electric motor tops out at 67 HP. I don't think it's possible that the 2019 Ram eTorque can generate 64 HP, and even if it could, there is no way the belt-drive it has could transmit 64 HP (maybe 15 HP at most, for a very short burst).

The previous generation Prius has a 1.6 kWh battery, roughly four times the size of the one in the 2019 Ram 1500, and I can tell you from personal experience, that 1.6 kWh battery is miniscule in terms of energy storage capacity. In a car that weighs 2/3 of the Ram 1500 yet has 4X the hybrid battery capacity, that 1.6 kWh battery is barely enough to run the air conditioner for 10 minutes. On flat ground with ultra-careful acceleration and no climate control running, keeping the speed at 39 MPH or less, that same 1.6 kWh Prius hybrid battery can't even run the vehicle for a full mile. So the 0.4 kWh battery in the 2019 Ram 1500 is designed only to be able to do stop/start, smooth out the transmission shifts, and add it's torque for the first 2 seconds of acceleration from stop. That's it. But it does definitely improve the truck's city fuel economy (mostly via the stop/start feature), and eTorque's regenerative braking will help the brakes last at least a little bit longer, if the truck is driven carefully and with understanding of how the eTorque system actually operates.

The other smart thing that the eTorque does is, however, is that once the hybrid battery is fully charged, the extra electricity generated goes to running the electric engine-cooling fan on a higher speed, which "over-cools" the engine coolant and engine block, so that when the vehicle is idling or under light load later, they slow the big cooling fan down for a bit, saving electrical energy for the fan and thus less drag on the engine's alternator during that time. That's a pretty clever use of "extra energy" once the hybrid battery is topped off, basically converting the kinetic energy of the truck into electrical energy, then converting that excess electrical energy into "reverse thermal energy" (i.e. reducing the thermal energy stored in the engine coolant and block), to save electrical energy, and thus gasoline, later. Hats off to the eTorque engineers, it's a pretty slick, unimposing system, one that helps the truck owner a little bit, but more or less being under the radar, so as to not offend the average truck buyer who hates anything to do with hybrid vehicles.
Nice explanation. I believe that your calculation of watt hours is correct.

I believe that I read somewhere about an interview w/ a engineer from FCA, he said the etorque "should give an addtional 2-3mpg". That was before the EPA had rated the system. Perhaps FCA used the system to game the EPA test cycles- as auto manufactures do, to get those precious extra MPG's. Car companies have to get fleet averages of MPG - CAFE rules.

I agree about the minimal benefit on highway crusising, however the 110 (or 120) ft lb of torque should help any launch, on the strip or at the boat launch. Do a 4 wheel burn out!

It would be cool to hack the system- more or less braking, fan cool mode offf- saving juice for launch, add another batt...
 

ExcursionDiesel

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To be clear, in a previous post you did state "Any 400 watt-hour ratted battery can ouput 400 watts for 1 hour. Thats 1,440,000 total watts expended."

I think what you meant to say was that a 400 W*h battery that can deliver 400 watts of power over the course of one hour will have expended 1,440,000 JOULES of energy (not watts of power). A battery that is rated at 400 W*h (0.4 kWh) can equivalently be said to contain 1,440,000 joules of energy.

We are comparing HP versus Watts which can also be described in Joules per Second interchangeably. 1 HP = 746 watts = 746 Joules per Sec. My total stored energy expended over 1 second would be 1,440kw....not hours, not minutes. A watt is by definition per second.

I size electrical components and drive sytems dialy. No need to get in a debate over interchangeable terms
in physics.

My only point is that there is a significant amount of energy available to drive a 15hp motor for a short duration in the eTourque application. If you would like to use Joules, that's fine. Most people don't relate to that. Watts, which are directly related as a rate of Joules per second, are much more commonly used.

I never stated that the small eTorque battery could deliver 1,440kwh. That would be impossible. It is probably impossible to deliver 1,440k joules of energy due to the internal resistance (losses) in the battery. It's just a rating like all batteries use.

We are saying the the same thing.
 

Cannonball

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2 things I've learned reading this thread:

1. Adding a 20 hp electric motor on top of a 400 hp V8 is not worth 1.5 times the entire v8 engine price.

2. No one posting here is an electrical engineer :geek:
 

john l.

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2 things I've learned reading this thread:

1. Adding a 20 hp electric motor on top of a 400 hp V8 is not worth 1.5 times the entire v8 engine price.

2. No one posting here is an electrical engineer :geek:
If you can get 3MPG boost, it may pay for its self, eventually...
 

go-ram

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I am an electrical engineer, but I am not commenting on this thread.;)

Aw, c'mon, join in and make sure that ultimately the correct information is posted.

This is a great website, everyone here gets along well, and everyone really tries to contribute good, solid information, but we're not all electrical engineers like you. Also, everyone here is looking for good, solid, accurate information that can be trusted when making their decisions. So please do join in and finish this one off, unit-wise, etc., from the perspective of an electrical engineer who truly understands the correct units, the physics, as well as the different concepts employed in a system like Ram's eTorque "mild hybrid".
 

edrclark

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I can and have designed a super computer, batteries not my specialty
 

Chris

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Watts and Watt-hours are not interchangeable. You don't use "Watts", just like you don't use "Amps". Watts is a flow rate, not a unit. Watt-hours is a unit, and is the amount of watts used over a period of one hour (it is how you are billed for electricity usage). At best, you could say Joules is equal to Watt-seconds, if you prefer to measure in Watt-seconds instead of Watt-hours or Joules, but nobody does that.

Google is your friend.
 

ExcursionDiesel

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Watts and Watt-hours are not interchangeable. You don't use "Watts", just like you don't use "Amps". Watts is a flow rate, not a unit. Watt-hours is a unit, and is the amount of watts used over a period of one hour (it is how you are billed for electricity usage). At best, you could say Joules is equal to Watt-seconds, if you prefer to measure in Watt-seconds instead of Watt-hours or Joules, but nobody does that.

Google is your friend.
I'm well aware of the difference in energy units and the physics involved. The original explanation was meant to avoid complexities
and cut to the chase. A Watt is a Joule per second and is therefore a measure of flow as well, just always in seconds unless specified otherwise. The point was to calculate the theoritical potential energy stored in the battery. 400 watt-hours = 400 * 60 * 60 = 1440000 joules = also 1440000 watts expended in 1 sec. This amount of energy can not be transferred in one second by the battery due to internal resistance....but the value 1440000 can be divided by a reasonable number of seconds to show how much power could be transferred over a longer period of time. There's way more to it than that. We don't know the Thevinin resistance of the battery so we can't calculate the maximum power transfer. As was mentioned above, it is doubtful that all of the energy is available. None the less, the battery is sufficiently sized to drive a 15-20 hp motor for a short burst of time which is what the eTourque system does. By the same token, the motor operates as a generator and can regen a portion of the energy to the battery. It's a clever system and works well.

I hope that's the end of this thread if the academic folks can let it be and excuse my shortcuts. I size motors and drives daily. We don't typically think in Joules. Lol!
 

Chris

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Please stop saying that Watts are always in seconds unless otherwise specified; just stop.
 

Gman

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Oh, yeah? My Watt is longer than yours! ;)

Interesting to read about the parts constraint. I had been wondering, as I've been looking into buying a new truck. Seems like the trucks that are 'In Transit' to dealers are of the non-eTorque variety. The eTorque trucks that I could find were in existing inventory.

I've had a vehicle with Start/Stop for the last 3 years...and hate it. The shudder at startup is unnerving. The idea of shutting off a turbocharged engine and letting the turbos spin down, only to have to spin them up again doesn't make much sense. None of those things are an issue with the Hemi + E Torque. I found the technology to be pretty unnoticeable in my test drive. My commute to/from work involves a lot of stop and go, so I see this as a beneficial option.
 

keith4mopar

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Ouch! That definitely puts a damper on my mood, as I had been dreaming of a shiny new Rebel 12 for Christmas. :(

Thank you for the confirmation, though!

I just ordered a 2019 Ram 1500 Rebel 12 without e-torque. What options did you get? I wanted the black side steps but it wouldn't let them add for some reason.

I ordered the following:
1500 REBEL CREW CAB 4X4 (144.5 in WB 5 FT 7 IN box)
5.7L V8 HEMI MDS VVT Engine
Rebel Level 2 Equipment Group
Uconnect 12.0 with Navigation
Bed Utility Group
Spray in Bedliner
Tri-Fold Tonneau Cover
Dual-Pane Panoramic Sunroof
Trailer Tow Group
Blind Spot and Cross Path Detection
Rear Wheelhouse Liners
Bright White Clear Coat
Lower Two Tone Paint
Diamond Black Crystal P/C
 

Zinger

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If you can get 3MPG boost, it may pay for its self, eventually...

I highly doubt it.

The math is actually pretty simple. Even using combined MPG ratings you're not getting but a 10% MPG boost, and remember that was under ideal EPA testing conditions. If you do more highway miles than city miles, your payback is longer. Some simple math and you're looking at a 10 YEAR+ payback for the cost of the eTorque.

Plus, keep in mind that the battery will probably not last 10 years. I can only guess what they are going to want for an OEM replacement. My guess is going to be around $1,000.

Then, what about the longevity of the actual eTorque motor? Motors wear out, and again, I can only imagine what they are going to want for a new one. Keep in mind battery packs are not covered by any extended warranty, even the lifetime. I don't believe anybody has confirmed if the eTorque motor is or not. Both are warranted for 8 years / 80,000 miles, but after that good luck.

So add it all up, and you're paying $1,500 more for your new truck to have a ton more added complexity and parts that are untested failure points, and you're probably NEVER going to even hit break-even on your investment even if it doesn't break down along the way. Oh, and now your truck is going to shut itself off at stop signs as well, which no matter how smooth of a restart is still not as good as just having a running engine ready for your foot to press the accelerator at all times.

Don't get me wrong, as a tech-head I think the idea of eTorque is really cool. I've driven an eTorque truck 3 times now and I think it's a really nice system. However, it makes ZERO economic sense.
 

go-ram

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I highly doubt it.

The math is actually pretty simple. Even using combined MPG ratings you're not getting but a 10% MPG boost, and remember that was under ideal EPA testing conditions. If you do more highway miles than city miles, your payback is longer. Some simple math and you're looking at a 10 YEAR+ payback for the cost of the eTorque.

Plus, keep in mind that the battery will probably not last 10 years. I can only guess what they are going to want for an OEM replacement. My guess is going to be around $1,000.

Then, what about the longevity of the actual eTorque motor? Motors wear out, and again, I can only imagine what they are going to want for a new one. Keep in mind battery packs are not covered by any extended warranty, even the lifetime. I don't believe anybody has confirmed if the eTorque motor is or not. Both are warranted for 8 years / 80,000 miles, but after that good luck.

So add it all up, and you're paying $1,500 more for your new truck to have a ton more added complexity and parts that are untested failure points, and you're probably NEVER going to even hit break-even on your investment even if it doesn't break down along the way. Oh, and now your truck is going to shut itself off at stop signs as well, which no matter how smooth of a restart is still not as good as just having a running engine ready for your foot to press the accelerator at all times.

Don't get me wrong, as a tech-head I think the idea of eTorque is really cool. I've driven an eTorque truck 3 times now and I think it's a really nice system. However, it makes ZERO economic sense.

You're probably right, for most folks the $1450 option price for eTorque on the 5.7 L Hemi likely won't pay itself back, of if it does, just barely. But you are also assuming absolute worst-case in all of your estimates above, and that's a little bit too far toward the negative side.

For example, just say an owner doesn't tow or haul much and decides to use their eTorque as it was intended, i.e. leaving stop/start enabled, leaving "eco mode" enabled, and letting eTorque slow down the vehicle to the greatest extent possible when coming to stops by regenerating the most electricity possible. That style of driving will save fuel (compared to roaring up to stops and relying on heavy friction braking), and using eTorque to the greatest extent reasonable for slowing the truck significantly before applying the friction brakes, may well allow the original brakes to go to 100,000+ miles rather than, say, 70,000 miles. If the owner trades the truck before its first brake job is required, that alone will save the original owner at least half the cost of the eTorque system, maybe closer to all of it. I'm not saying that's likely for most owners, but it is entirely possible, if one makes a conscious choice to let eTorque do its thing without thwarting it. As a real-world point of comparison, our family's old Prius has over 160,000 miles on the original brake pads, and the dealer's service techs indicate that a significant portion of the original friction material remains.

Another small benefit of eTorque, according to a Ram product specialist, is that when the truck is slowing and needs to downshift, they rev the engine speed to the point of ideal shift synchronization by feeding power from the hybrid battery through the eTorque motor/generator, back to the crankshaft to speed up the engine to the point of downshift synchronization, whereas in the past they had to add fuel to speed up the engine. During upshifts, again eTorque is called upon to smooth the shift and absorb the rotary inertia of the engine to slow it down to the point of ideal shift synchronization, so with eTorque that extra bit of rotary inertia is absorbed by eTorque, rather than dump those brief pulses of torque into the transmission clutches. So although it is a small effect, over many miles of operation, the eTorque is taking a little bit of added transmission clutch wear out of the picture. Here is the link to that thread here on 5genrams (the explanation of "eTorque modes 4 & 5" begins right at 4:19 into the video, although it is only an 11-minute video, well worth watching all of it):
https://5thgenrams.com/community/threads/etorque-6-things-you-probably-didnt-know.3126/ (the video is embedded in the very first post on page 1 of that thread, as posted by "Craftman" Oct 23, 2018)

Only a small percentage of owners of Ram trucks will prioritize saving fuel over working their trucks, or even just enjoying the feel of the 5.7 L Hemi, but if a given owner mostly uses their 5.7 L eTorque as a daily driver, and chooses to give the eTorque system a reasonable chance to do its thing, the added $1,450 is entirely possible to recoup within a reasonable number of years. And because eTorque is part of the exhaust-emissions control system, it carries a fairly long federally-required and/or state-required full warranty (for example, in California, the hybrid system in a Prius, including the $3,000 hybrid battery, is warranted fully for ten years or 150,000 miles).
 
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