Tazer has voided my warranty

[silver billet]

It does modify the signal from the pedal to the PCM/Throttle body. So, yes, it technically "talks" to the PCM.

Modify is way to strong a term. Do you modify the stereo by changing the station?

It doesn't modify the truck, it just pushes the pedal down an extra centimeter or two depending on your setting. You do more modification to your truck by changing the oil filter and putting gas in it.

 

[BowDown]

Modify is way to strong a term. Do you modify the stereo by changing the station?

It doesn't modify the truck, it just pushes the pedal down an extra centimeter or two depending on your setting. You do more modification to your truck by changing the oil filter and putting gas in it.

It changes the ETC throttle map (Opening Rate) or how the throttle responds to pedal travel so yes, it modifies it or specifically, the signal telling the computer to do something different than what it was programmed for

 

[Moosefire66]

Modify is way to strong a term. Do you modify the stereo by changing the station?

It doesn't modify the truck, it just pushes the pedal down an extra centimeter or two depending on your setting. You do more modification to your truck by changing the oil filter and putting gas in it.

I feel like you're oversimplifying this to try to make your point. Your radio is designed to be changed. The volume is designed to be changed. Oil, is designed to be changed. Whether you like it or not, the pcm, bcm, or any other part of the computer system is not to be tampered with by anyone other than the dealer or ram itself. If you do so, you do it at your own risk, including voiding your warranty

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using Tapatalk

 

[NewTruckWhoDis]

No it doesn't. That act for for something like your water pump fails and you install a NAPA water pump instead of an OEM. The manufacturer cannot void your warranty because you used an non OEM part provided that part operated the same as the OEM part or did not change the way the vehicle operates as intended by the manufacturer. Say you installed a aftermarket cam, as long as the came was the same spec as the factory cam and of the same quality, your fine. Install a cam dynamics 245° @ .50" lift cam and your warranty is void, not the same spec or compatible with the factory part and changed the intended operation of the vehicle.
Many people mis-interpertet Magnuson Moss Warranty Act, when you tamper with the PCM/TM/BCM they have the right to void the entire warranty for tampering due to the computer controlling everything on the vehicle and operating in a way not intended by the OEM and being altered by a non OEM programming tool.

Magnuson Moss Warranty Act Aftermarket Parts

Magnuson Moss Warranty Act Aftermarket Parts is a federal law that governs the content and regulation of product warranties.

midwestaftermarket.com

Bro, your source appears to (at least in part) disagree with you.

From the site you linked (emphasis mine):

Performance Tuners: Will Programmers Void my Warranty?​

Maybe, but not if you are smart about your install. If the dealership can prove that the tuner somehow is responsible for the damage to whatever part you are trying to make a warranty claim on, then you may get stuck with the bill for that repair, though it is highly unlikely that this would void your warranty.
... If a dealer was really trying to screw you over, it is technically possible that they could try to blame something on a tuner. This wouldn’t void your warranty, but it could become a huge hassle if a dealer was trying to make you pay for a repair that should be covered by your warranty. So same difference, if you will.

Further from your source:
“Still if it turns out that the aftermarket part was itself defective or wasn’t installed correctly, and it causes damage to another part that is covered under the warranty, the manufacturer or dealer has the right to deny coverage for that part and charge you for any repairs. The FTC says the manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage.”

I copied that line above from your source specifically in response to this part of your statement. "Install a cam dynamics 245° @ .50" lift cam and your warranty is void, not the same spec or compatible with the factory part and changed the intended operation of the vehicle."
Not sure if you actually meant the entire warranty, but only the warranty for a part directly affected by that aftermarket (different spec) cam could be void, if the dealer proves the aftermarket part caused the damage. They wouldn't void a warranty on a rear seat because someone installed a performance cam.

I suspect your overall point is the PCM/BCM/TCMs touch all parts of the vehicle, therefore any mods done to those would affect every other part of the truck. But your own source says that is not necessarily the case, and the dealer would still need to prove it.

 

[BowDown]

Bro, your source appears to (at least in part) disagree with you.

From the site you linked (emphasis mine):

Performance Tuners: Will Programmers Void my Warranty?​

Maybe, but not if you are smart about your install. If the dealership can prove that the tuner somehow is responsible for the damage to whatever part you are trying to make a warranty claim on, then you may get stuck with the bill for that repair, though it is highly unlikely that this would void your warranty.
... If a dealer was really trying to screw you over, it is technically possible that they could try to blame something on a tuner. This wouldn’t void your warranty, but it could become a huge hassle if a dealer was trying to make you pay for a repair that should be covered by your warranty. So same difference, if you will.

Further from your source:
“Still if it turns out that the aftermarket part was itself defective or wasn’t installed correctly, and it causes damage to another part that is covered under the warranty, the manufacturer or dealer has the right to deny coverage for that part and charge you for any repairs. The FTC says the manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage.”

I copied that line above from your source specifically in response to this part of your statement. "Install a cam dynamics 245° @ .50" lift cam and your warranty is void, not the same spec or compatible with the factory part and changed the intended operation of the vehicle."
Not sure if you actually meant the entire warranty, but only the warranty for a part directly affected by that aftermarket (different spec) cam could be void, if the dealer proves the aftermarket part caused the damage. They wouldn't void a warranty on a rear seat because someone installed a performance cam.

I suspect your overall point is the PCM/BCM/TCMs touch all parts of the vehicle, therefore any mods done to those would affect every other part of the truck. But your own source says that is not necessarily the case, and the dealer would still need to prove it.

Have you read this thread?

 

[NewTruckWhoDis]

Have you read this thread?

Yeah, I read the thread. I read your comments. I read and reread my own comment before posting it. What's your point?
The dealer is trying to claim his tazer is the reason his transmission is broken, but won't provide exact details on how.
You claim simply installing the tazer is enough, and that everyone saying to use the MMA misunderstands how it works, while also posting something that kinda sorta shows you don't understand how it works.
What did I miss with my reading?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[BowDown]

Yeah, I read the thread. I read your comments. I read and reread my own comment before posting it. What's your point?
The dealer is trying to claim his tazer is the reason his transmission is broken, but won't provide exact details on how.
You claim simply installing the tazer is enough, and that everyone saying to use the MMA misunderstands how it works, while also posting something that kinda sorta shows you don't understand how it works.
What did I miss with my reading?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

That his warranty has been voided.

It was never stated that his warranty was voided because the taser damaged the transmission. It was stated that the warranty was voided because of tampering with PCM/BCM by using the tazer.

MMA protects against using non oem parts to repair a vehicle or modify a vehicle and requires proving that said modification was the cause of the failure. It also states that modifying the vehicle beyond the manufacturer's intended purposes is not protected by MMA.
Making a change for the PCM /BCM with a taser or similar device does what to the intended purpose of the vehicle? Are you not modifying the vehicle beyond the manufacturers orginal intent regardless of how insignificant?

Even simpler than that, FCA Stellantis views tampering with the PCM/BCM in anyway as tampering with a software or the computer and has the right to void the warranty regardless of how you feel about it.

 

[NewTruckWhoDis]

That his warranty has been voided.

It was never stated that his warranty was voided because the taser damaged the transmission. It was stated that the warranty was voided because of tampering with PCM/BCM by using the tazer.

MMA protects against using non oem parts to repair a vehicle or modify a vehicle and requires proving that said modification was the cause of the failure. It also states that modifying the vehicle beyond the manufacturer's intended purposes is not protected by MMA.
Making a change for the PCM /BCM with a taser or similar device does what to the intended purpose of the vehicle? Are you not modifying the vehicle beyond the manufacturers orginal intent regardless of how insignificant?

Even simpler than that, FCA Stellantis views tampering with the PCM/BCM in anyway as tampering with a software or the computer and has the right to void the warranty regardless of how you feel about it.

Maybe you should go back and re-read the thread. See below from OP. Again, emphasis mine.

I finally got a hold of my case manager at ram. Pathetic situation.

She confirmed that the corporate tech who inspected my truck said that my “tune“ was the cause of the problem and that I can no longer make claims for my transmission clunk. Nothing else is affected.
I responded by asking for this in writing. She said they do not provide documentation to the customer. I said thats interesting, so please tell me what wrong so I can get my truck fixed considering that neither the dealer nor FCA have been able to isolate or solve the problem. I have paperwork showing that all computer systems have been scanned and reset multiple times including black boxes run with data sent back to FCA for analysis to no avail. That was when they replaced the valve body and then a tranny the first time. She said they do not know whats wrong and do not have that information. My best bet per her words is to take it to a transmission shop.

So they are positive that my “Tune” broke my transmission, positive enough to void my warranty claims but they can’t tell me whats actually broken or if it is the transmission which has less than 9000mi. Therefore Ram cannot tell me how my supposed actions were directly responsible for the faults. This argument they are making doesnt have one half of a leg to stand on.

I interpret that as only the transmission warranty claims being affected/blocked in this situation.

Again, my point is that YOU seem to be misunderstanding what the MMA does, which is very clearly broken down in the source you provided. Only the parts being changed/modified, and any OEM parts that the MFR can prove were affected by the aftermarket parts, could have their warranty claims denied/voided. If I put on a cold air intake, which we can all agree changes the vehicle beyond the MFR's original intent (an insignificant amount), they cannot use that part to void the warranty on your suspension. Or radio. Or windshield.

I am not saying that Stellantis doesn't have some verbiage in their warranty contracts that specifically calls out tunes or PCM tampering, just that (IMO) you are putting out inaccurate info about the MMA. And, according to what I quoted from OP, you are a little off on his specific situation as well.

 

[Klicht87]

To be honest, I'm not sure why this thread is still going on and everyone is arguing one way or the other. We all should understand modifying our vehicles can possible void warranties (for the systems they affect) if , in fact, they do cause issues down the road. Tuners are easy outs for some dealers. All dealers are different. The fact that the OP left the taser plugged in and the dealer caught it was that easy out for them to service under warranty. It stinks but it's just the way it is.

 

[BowDown]

Maybe you should go back and re-read the thread. See below from OP. Again, emphasis mine.

I interpret that as only the transmission warranty claims being affected/blocked in this situation.

Again, my point is that YOU seem to be misunderstanding what the MMA does, which is very clearly broken down in the source you provided. Only the parts being changed/modified, and any OEM parts that the MFR can prove were affected by the aftermarket parts, could have their warranty claims denied/voided. If I put on a cold air intake, which we can all agree changes the vehicle beyond the MFR's original intent (an insignificant amount), they cannot use that part to void the warranty on your suspension. Or radio. Or windshield.

I am not saying that Stellantis doesn't have some verbiage in their warranty contracts that specifically calls out tunes or PCM tampering, just that (IMO) you are putting out inaccurate info about the MMA. And, according to what I quoted from OP, you are a little off on his specific situation as well.

The OP has stated his trucks warranty has been voided, not just the trans so you likely interpret wrong.
You are also being too specific when you see the comment referencing a tune, I see that as FCA seeing a foreign non approved device modifying the the PCM/BCM and they consider it tampering regardless of its function. I'm basing this off what seems like little to no effort spent by FCA determining what the device actually was only that it is prohibited and therefore voided his warranty.

I'm well aware of what MMA states but it also states that modifying the vehicle from the manufacturers intended use is grounds for the warranty being voided so I ask again, what part of a tazer modifying the way the truck operates, no matter how minute, is confusing?
I follow that question up with this simple question, did or did FCA not void his warranty due to the tazer?

If I put on a cold air intake, which we can all agree changes the vehicle beyond the MFR's original intent

We don't agree on that, you do. I dont believe a CAI does jack S on these trucks other than increase intake sounds but lets say I agree. Suppose you get caught in a rainstorm and hydrolock your engine. Your truck is towed to the dealer where they discover your engine indeed hydrolocked and your CAI. What do you think the chances ae that you get a new engine under warranty?
You also misunderstand the tazer warranty comments, many here look at this and believe FCA finding or detecting this device is an automatic foul and warranty void, as in they do no further work (under warranty). You tampered with the PCM and now now you have an issue, dont care, you tampered with the PCM, you're out, bye, period. That is what appears to have happened here now if you think MMA is got his back, help him lawyer up and prove me wrong.


Re:

Again, my point is that YOU seem to be misunderstanding what the MMA does, which is very clearly broken down in the source you provided. Only the parts being changed/modified, and any OEM parts that the MFR can prove were affected by the aftermarket parts, could have their warranty claims denied/voided.

You should go back and read my comment because I said exactly that in post 134


One other thing, you may want to take a look at this

Stage 3's Stance on Tuning and Your Vehicle's Warranty

www.stage3motorsports.com

By far and away the most frequently asked question when it comes to performance tuning of a given vehicle's Powertrain Control Module (PCM) or Engine Control Unit (ECU) is "will this void my warranty?" The short answer is yes, unequivocally and absolutely yes. Performance software tuning of your vehicle's computer will practically always void and Powertrain Warranty that your car or truck may or may not have. "But Stage 3," you say, "what about the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act, running the vehicle through a drive cycle before I go into the dealer, or running down my battery to hide my tune?" There are some ways where you're still protected and ways that you can possibly hide a performance tune from the prying eyes of Ford and your dealership. So the long answer to the initial question is "yes, but..." The fact is that the whole tuning/warranty situation is pretty sticky and complex, but there is a good reason that we at Stage 3 tell you that your warranty will definitely be voided while the other guys beat around the bush or even lie through their teeth: we're looking out for you and your vehicle's best interest.


First, what does it actually mean when a "warranty is voided" by a tune. Well, your car or truck is covered by a manufacturer's warranty for basically every single component on your vehicle of choice. The specific warranty in question is your vehicle's Powertrain Warranty covering your engine, transmission, driveline, and their various components. When a warranty is "voided", it's specifically related to your vehicle's Powertrain and its related components. Meaning if you tune your vehicle and your window regulator goes out, your window regulator would still be replaced under warranty, given that it's not a system that's effected by a tune. So, when we say your vehicle's warranty is voided by a tune, it doesn't mean that Ford and your dealership will completely kick you to the curb. They just won't cover any Powertrain-related repair of replacement if they discover that your vehicle has a performance tune in it or has ran performance tuning in the past.


Now, you may hear something or other about being protected by the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975, which you technically are, since the Act requires a burden of proof from the manufacturer or dealer that a particular aftermarket part, accessory, or tune led to an engine failure or other issue. That being said, Ford and dealerships have much more money and a much larger legal team than you, and a drawn-out court battle with a judge that may or may not understand some of the finer points of the aftermarket or tuning will more than likely cost you more than new motor and still leave you footing the bill for full crate engine or long block if something catastrophic did in fact occur. So, while you're technically "protected" to some extent, the real-world practical issues leave a lot to be desired. Still, if you put a tune in your vehicle, but have a problem with something that is totally unrelated to the tune or powertrain (i.e. your window regulator, door locks, A/C, power steering, etc.), then those repairs would be covered.

No he didn't tune the PCM but FCA views any PCM tampering the same as tuning; for all intents and purposes, it should be viewed the same by us

 

[BowDown]

To be honest, I'm not sure why this thread is still going on and everyone is arguing one way or the other. We all should understand modifying our vehicles can possible void warranties (for the systems they affect) if , in fact, they do cause issues down the road. Tuners are easy outs for some dealers. All dealers are different. The fact that the OP left the taser plugged in and the dealer caught it was that easy out for them to service under warranty. It stinks but it's just the way it is.

Exactly and I've said as much repeatedly. At this point, it doesn't matter as the shop used the tazer as a valid out whether we agree with it or not.
We all know the consequences of modding vehicles both in and out of warranty and when you mod, you accept that risk and the following consequence

 

[mmcbeat]

Might be time to get offers from CarMax, Carvana, Vroom, givemethevin, etc. You seen to think it’s a lemon. And it’s almost three years old so the lack of warranty is not as much of an issue.

 

[silver billet]

I feel like you're oversimplifying this to try to make your point. Your radio is designed to be changed. The volume is designed to be changed. Oil, is designed to be changed. Whether you like it or not, the pcm, bcm, or any other part of the computer system is not to be tampered with by anyone other than the dealer or ram itself. If you do so, you do it at your own risk, including voiding your warranty

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using Tapatalk

No, I think you're misunderstanding what the pedal is. It's basically a potentiometer, the same type of physical control that a stereo knob is. You turn it one way, the voltage on the line out changes. So yes, the pedal is "designed to be changed" to use your phrasing, just like the radio control is designed to be changed, that's the entire point of the pedal.

All the pedal commander type devices do, is increase the voltage out, just like pushing the pedal does. Absolutely no difference, no changes to the pcm/bcm/computer or any other system. Those systems have no idea the commander is attached.

So getting back to changing your oil; you can do more damage to your truck by changing your oil or by filling your gas, then you can do by pushing the gas pedal a little harder.

 

[silver billet]

It changes the ETC throttle map (Opening Rate) or how the throttle responds to pedal travel so yes, it modifies it or specifically, the signal telling the computer to do something different than what it was programmed for

The system is designed/programmed to be a rotary dial; the more you turn/press it, the hotter the signal. Your not remapping anything.

What exactly do you think the pedal commander is doing differently than it was programmed for? I get the idea some of you don't understand how a simple gas pedal works.

 

[NewTruckWhoDis]

Ok, I deleted my last because it seems we are arguing in circles, maybe saying basically the same thing, maybe not. And ultimately it doesn't matter. I wish OP luck in getting this figured out.

 

[HSKR R/T]

The system is designed/programmed to be a rotary dial; the more you turn/press it, the hotter the signal. Your not remapping anything.

What exactly do you think the pedal commander is doing differently than it was programmed for? I get the idea some of you don't understand how a simple gas pedal works.

I get the idea you dont understand what the pedal commander, or any throttle booster device does. As I mentioned, it "modifies" the signal from the throttle pedal. You admit this yourself. It does more than just increase the voltage. If that's all it did, then at full throttle, the signal would be outside the parameters the system is designed to work within.

 

[BowDown]

The system is designed/programmed to be a rotary dial; the more you turn/press it, the hotter the signal. Your not remapping anything.

What exactly do you think the pedal commander is doing differently than it was programmed for? I get the idea some of you don't understand how a simple gas pedal works.

I've actually programed this on my Z06 with HP tuners. It's a scaling map called etc opening rate and a follower map to close the tb. The taser interrupts this signal and magnifies the throttle pedal signal by a factor of x depending on what setting you're using on the device. But honestly this is pointless because it dosen't truly matter what it does or how it does it or whether or not it changes the intended operation of the vehicle, FCA views his as tampering plain and simple so it does really matter what we think of the tazer.

That said, valvebody line pressure is directly tied to throttle position and opening rate. Depending on how much change is made it could negatively impact the transmission.
If you think the throttle pedal behaves I that simple of fashion, I suggest some reading in the HP tuners forum. There's nothing simple about this. The tazer dosen't remap thus function but the effects are the same which is why I called it what it actually is.

 

[ekaz]

The tazer does nothing to the PCM or TCM, it does nothing to any of the modules that controls the transmission or affects the transmission. The tazer only writes to the BCM. We're losing site of what the tazer does. There isn't anything the tazer does that would cause a failure in the tranmission.
The deal is going into the gray area here saying that he did this so that he means he did that, and that is not the case as there would be a code in the module reflecting that.

 

[Grape_Ape]

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what it does or doesn't do. He left it installed and the dealer decided to void his warranty based off potential. Is that fair? I don't think so but it's on him to pursue it legally because they've already said they're not budging.

It doesn't matter what anecdotal evidence Jim Bob in his 2500 has because he doesn't go to the same dealer. The OP may not have a great reputation with his dealer vs another guy. As in maybe Jim Bob only buys Rams and gets the dealer to service his vehicles. They stand to lose money if they don't work with him vs the OP who may be a first time ram buyer and does his own oil changes. Etc. Etc.

I've attached literature from the ram website.

It's not hard to envision a legal battle in which FCA/Stellantis states that - by having an aftermarket part installed that is bypassing the security module is evidence of potential abuse and neglect by the customer. The could consider the tazer to be a performance part as referenced below.

So the question remains - would you really spend the thousands of dollars to fight for a new transmission covered under warranty or would you just shut up? Because the corporation is banking on the latter and I'm not a lawyer so I'm not at liberty to actually say who'd win.

In my opinion the key takeaways from this are - if you're going to perform any changes like these on your truck then at least remove them temporarily while work is being done on said truck. Understand that once you're modifying your truck beyond the way that it left the factory you're increasing the risk of your warranty being canceled.

 

[5thGenLoco]

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what it does or doesn't do. He left it installed and the dealer decided to void his warranty based off potential. Is that fair? I don't think so but it's on him to pursue it legally because they've already said they're not budging.

It doesn't matter what anecdotal evidence Jim Bob in his 2500 has because he doesn't go to the same dealer. The OP may not have a great reputation with his dealer vs another guy. As in maybe Jim Bob only buys Rams and gets the dealer to service his vehicles. They stand to lose money if they don't work with him vs the OP who may be a first time ram buyer and does his own oil changes. Etc. Etc.

I've attached literature from the ram website. View attachment 100291View attachment 100290

It's not hard to envision a legal battle in which FCA/Stellantis states that - by having an aftermarket part installed that is bypassing the security module is evidence of potential abuse and neglect by the customer. The could consider the tazer to be a performance part as referenced below.

So the question remains - would you really spend the thousands of dollars to fight for a new transmission covered under warranty or would you just shut up? Because the corporation is banking on the latter and I'm not a lawyer so I'm not at liberty to actually say who'd win.

In my opinion the key takeaways from this are - if you're going to perform any changes like these on your truck then at least remove them temporarily while work is being done on said truck. Understand that once you're modifying your truck beyond the way that it left the factory you're increasing the risk of your warranty being canceled.
View attachment 100295

As someone that is in a legal skirmish currently, I can say it would be cheaper to buy a new transmission than to pay an atty to go to battle for you.