RAM Payload Definition in Regards to Towing

[HAL9001]

I recently purchased a 2021 RAM 1500 Limited. I only have an 1156 lb Payload rating (as per the door sticker) to work with. So, each pound means a lot when it comes to selecting a Travel Trailer. On the trailer I want, I calculate I'll be around 90 lbs over my payload limit after I add all passengers and cargo, due primarily to the trailer's dry tongue weight. And this is with removing as much cargo as I practically can from both the truck and the trailer.

Now, on this forum and others, it's been argued both ways that the Payload limit RAM provides either does or does not include an 150 lb allowance for the driver. I have no idea who is correct, but since it means the difference in buying or not buying the trailer I want, I did a deep search into any official information I could find directly from FCA concerning this.

I found this document on the RAM website titled Towing Basics, so you would think that would be on-topic and accurate. This document states the following (note the highlighted fields):



So, unless I'm missing something, and please tell me if I am, it appears that RAM is allowing an 150 lbs driver weight for both the Trailer Weight and the Payload.

If this is wrong, please tell me exactly why, but please be certain as it will greatly affect the trailer I and others in the same situation can purchase.

 

[devildodge]

Do you know what year this covers?

This is the first i have ever read this.

The payload on your door sticker is an empty truck with full fluids.

This seems to be an older listing. As now the maximum before a fifth wheel is required is 23k.

I would assume the 150lb driver allowance is for the chart figures. Although current SAEJ2807 allowances 300lbs for driver and passenger.

The max trailer that it says is an unattainable number when talking about a travel trailer. As it is for 10% tongue weight...but most travel trailers will have 13 to 15%.

So. I can not give you definitive answer...as i did not write the pamphlet...but your door sticker is a truck with no passengers or cargo.

The towing number gives an allowance...and this seems to be an older one. I will research some more when I get a chance.

 

[HAL9001]

Do you know what year this covers?

This is the first i have ever read this.

The payload on your door sticker is an empty truck with full fluids.

This seems to be an older listing. As now the maximum before a fifth wheel is required is 23k.

I would assume the 150lb driver allowance is for the chart figures. Although current SAEJ2807 allowances 300lbs for driver and passenger.

The max trailer that it says is an unattainable number when talking about a travel trailer. As it is for 10% tongue weight...but most travel trailers will have 13 to 15%.

So. I can not give you definitive answer...as i did not write the pamphlet...but your door sticker is a truck with no passengers or cargo.

The towing number gives an allowance...and this seems to be an older one. I will research some more when I get a chance.

Thank you for your quick reply. The document is dated 10/14/2019 so I assume that it's reasonably up to date.

 

[devildodge]

Whatever it is they are trying to convey is for the tables.

So your 1156lb payload on the door sticker does not include a driver. A 150lb driver would make the available payload 1006lbs.

What the table definition of maximum trailer weight and payload means is that when figuring this number they used a 150 allowance for a driver. And if you look more they give allowances for hitches and of course the 10% tongue weight.

 

[HAL9001]

Why would they give such allowances for the table but not for the sticker? That is very confusing for owners especially those who don't read these forums and who don't have access to someone who could clarify this information. You would think that they would use some sort of standard throughout their towing ratings such as SAEJ2807. How on earth are we supposed to figure all of this out when they have so many different meanings for the same rating?

 

[devildodge]

This is the easiest way to figure out what you can tow.

GVWR and GCWR. Are your capacity numbers.

Payload from door jamb helps you find base weight.

Not sure the details of your truck. But there are very few differences.

4x2 is 6900 GVWR
4x4 is 7100 GVWR

HEMI with 3.21 is 13900 GCWR
HEMI with 3.92 is 17000 GCWR.

Since we are talking 1500s...your trailering is completely payload limited.

So you have to figure your cargo/passengers.

At the maximum...150 lb driver allowance and a 100lb hitch means you have
906 pounds left ...so a 9060 lb trailer would be max.

Remember...a camper will have about 13% tongue weight. So that takes that number to 6969.

I am sure you will have more than 150lbs in the truck.

And remember the dry hitch weight...it will increase from 100 to 500lbs more depending on trailer GVWR.

 

[devildodge]

Why would they give such allowances for the table but not for the sticker? That is very confusing for owners especially those who don't read these forums and who don't have access to someone who could clarify this information. You would think that they would use some sort of standard throughout their towing ratings such as SAEJ2807. How on earth are we supposed to figure all of this out when they have so many different meanings for the same rating?

The sticker tells you. And the charts are for a base truck. And this is why so many people are running around thinking their truck has 1840lbs if payload. Because you have to read the fine print and discover this. But very few ever do.

The spell it all out and explain this very thoroughly. Just few people decide to read them.

And this is why I have so many threads here trying to explain it. As many many people spread false or urban legend information.

We learn everyday. And that is why I was so interested it what this says. It just says it a different way as this document is for commercial vehicles that would have just a driver while towing.

The SAE J2807 describes all this is great detail.

The problem is it is with a base truck. Every single truck ia different. There is no way they could possibly describe all configurstions and options.

1500 trucks are payload limited. It is a fact. And all the band aids can not fix this. Although some will add them and contently tow all over happy as a lark.

This is why when you go to the RAM page it says 1500s are for utility trailers and boats.

But they are so capable and comfortable...that they can handle large loads anf RVS.

You do have some capacity over the listed payload. But...you have to set the truck up properly...and you have to scale it. And then you have to realize braking and steering are compromised and you need to drive accordingly.

 

[devildodge]

The numbers you need are GVWR GAWR GCWR and the payload from door jamb.

Everything else is a suggestion.

Each truck is different.

The tables are to just give you an idea of numbers...and a limited is at the other end of the spectrum.

 

[devildodge]

Here is the non commercial information.

You can also see the tongue weight is limited to 1100lbs.

And you can see the 300lb allowance of driver and passenger. Which would be the 150lb allowance of driver for the commercial tables.

 

[HAL9001]

View attachment 84349
Here is the non commercial information.

You can also see the tongue weight is limited to 1100lbs.

And you can see the 300lb allowance of driver and passenger. Which would be the 150lb allowance of driver for the commercial tables.

Let me get this straight. You're saying that the maximum tongue weight of the RAM 1500 is only 1100 lbs?! Wow, that's going to be a shock to a lot of 1500 owners who think that they can pull a trailer with a loaded tongue weight of say 1300 lbs because their payload is say 1600 lbs. It doesn't affect me much with my meager payload of 1156 lbs, but they're all in for a massive shock if this is true.

 

[devildodge]

The trucks max out at 11000 even in tradesman trim. Unless you get the Dana Super 60 in 2wd. This also increases some other numbers.

HeavyDuty from 2013 to 2018 have a 1800lb limit. And for 2019 it is 2000. Anything over is 5th wheel or Gooseneck. The 35k max tow...it is only with a gooseneck.

There is lots of information people need to know. Very few care and even less think about it.

 

[devildodge]

For instance. The chart towing for a 1740 payload truck is 11090.

Which would be the limit of the 1100lb tongue weight.

And when you see the 12k plus amount. That is just the difference from GCWR to base weight. And it will actually be limited to 11k.

Marketing has to get their numbers too.

 

[Polo08816]

One thing to remember is that payload is the capacity of both the FRONT and REAR axles.

Also, payload does NOT equal hitch weight/tongue weight. Because a convention tow hitch receiver is behind the rear axle, there is some leverage at play.

A conservative interpretation would be to determine your rear axle weight rating (RAWR) and subtract your unloaded rear axle weight (determined by putting the vehicle on a scale). The tongue weight you "should" take is about 66% of the available rear axle capacity. Obviously this is where a WDH hitch helps; it allows you to transfer some of that weight to the front axle which also improves control the vehicle.

Half ton pickup trucks are almost always limited by spring rate of the rear axle suspension.

 

[HAL9001]

... There is lots of information people need to know. Very few care and even less think about it.

I don't think you can fully blame someone who purchased a RAM 1500 with a payload rated at say 1700 lbs for going out and purchasing a trailer with a fully loaded tongue weight of 1400 lbs. As far as they may know, and as far as RAM has led them to believe, they have 300 lbs of capacity left. This is incorrect of course, since for one thing, the maximum tongue weight is limited below that by their included Class IV hitch. But unless they thoroughly researched this, they wouldn't even know.

And someone with a towing rating of 12,000 lbs but with only a payload of 1100 lbs might think it's fine to buy a trailer with a loaded weight of 11,000 lbs not realizing that they need at least 1,100 lbs of hitch weight to be safe. But that would leave them with no more payload capacity left for themselves or their passengers. Many don't know that you need at least 10% of the trailer's weight on the hitch.

And someone with a payload rating of 1400 lbs might think it's fine to buy a trailer with a dry hitch weight of 1000 lbs not realizing that once you load the cargo, and if it's balanced more forward, the hitch weight might exceed both the payload rating and the Class IV hitch rating.

The dealer selling them the travel trailer is probably not going to tell them the bad news. No RV dealer I've ever talked to told me about such limits, in fact, I've had several, including RV factory reps try very hard to talk me into trailers that were way too heavy.

It took me months of digging into the data and learning on forums like this that vehicle and RV manufacturers and dealers obfuscate this information to a high degree and it takes a great deal of effort to find out precisely what the safe towing specs really are for both towing vehicles and RVs. Even after all of that, I'm still learning, and I'm an engineer who is used to and understands such things.

RAM is including 150 lbs for the driver in one spec but not in another. SAEJ2807 has allowances of 300lbs for the driver and one passenger but RAM does not, yet still claims to be SAEJ2807 compliant. RAM barely mentions anywhere that the included Class IV hitch can only handle 1100 lbs on trucks with payloads of up to 1800 lbs. Payload specs are all over the place on RAMs and the maximum tongue is barely mentioned in their towing specs. You won't even know what your actual payload limit is until after you have a VIN number, and by then it might be too late if you ordered a truck. My payload shrank from the RAM 1500 Limited stated rating of 1790 lbs way down to 1156 lbs with just a few normal extra options.

RV manufacturers routinely fudge dry weights and barely mention that options most people will include could greatly increase them. They offer no practical way for buyers to measure the actual weights until after you buy one. Most RV dealers are of little or no help supplying information and many will look the other way if you incorrectly choose one over the towing specs for your vehicle.

Talk about pitfalls.

Realistic and complete towing specs should all be made crystal clear to towing vehicle and RV owners. Most are not towing experts, nor should they be expected to be. Most people know very little about such esoteric things. This is the fault of the vehicle and RV industries. They take an already complex issue and then purposely obfuscate the details to sell more cars, trucks, and RVs, safety be dammed. It takes an incredible amount of effort and a decent understanding of mathematics, mechanics, and even physics to find and fully understand all that is needed to know to properly and safely spec a towing rig. Instead, as far as I can see, this is mostly done by hit or miss.

Certainly, there are some owners who don't care, but there are far more who simply are unaware of all of this or who lack the understanding of all the technical aspects of it. So it's no wonder that so many of the towing rigs out there are way out of spec.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here and I greatly appreciate all of those such as @devildodge who strive to make this all better known and understood.

 

[devildodge]

I agree with you 100%.

They really should give up the towing capacity and just explain facts. Which is what I try to do.

Facts.

On a 4x4 Hemi crew cab 6'4 bed the facts are

GVWR 7100 lbs
Front GAWR 3900lbs
Rear GAWR 4100lbs. All listed on the door jamb.

The only meaningful number from the charts are GCWR and Maximum Tongue weight
Facts.
3.21 GCWR 13900
3.92 GCWR 17000
Maximum Tongue weight 1100lbs.

And then the only other relative number is payload. Unfortunately this is where it all goes to ****. It is near impossible to list all possible truck weights. This is where you need your own VIN or the VIN of a similarly equipped truck.
The charts and configurator will only work if you have a base tradesman model.

Once you have the payload it is just algebra.

GVWR minus payload equals base weight

GCWR minus base weight equals max trailering.

Then it becomes tricky again. If you do not have a scaled truck with passenger and cargo...you are back to guessing.

But...you have to have available payload for tongue weight and it must be under 1100lbs.

Once you figure out your available tongue weight you use 10% for a trailer. But you need to understand a camper/travel trailer is going to be ~14%.

Then it is just math again.

The discrepancy of 150 and 300 is because you are looking at 2 types of charts. A commercial and a private owner.

The charts are a guideline. You have to take the facts(GVWR, GCWR, GAWR, TW, etc) and apply them to your situation.

My RAM 2500 HAS 2998 PAYLOAD AND 12797 towing.

But I know that number is not accurate for me.



You can see from this CAT scale slip that because of my payload needs (5 passengers, wood, kayaks, bikes, etc.) My 5700lb camper is getting me near capacity. Sure...i can just tow myself and put the kayaks and bikes and family in our Cherokee...but we got tired of the two car camping. Why I have a 2500 and cannot get the REBEL OR BTS I want.

Towing and the numbers take some research and consideration.

I guess we see why they call it a Limited...

 

[devildodge]

Then we get to the trailer.

650 hitch weight 4750 UVW.

Ok. That is not what you will have when going camping.

Notice it is about ~14% TW.

The GVWR will then say 6500. Well guess what. In that CAT scale slip above. The GVWR of my camper ia 5200...i am a bit over.

So now at least figure on 1000lbs going onto the trailer. So 5750 at 14% is 805 and 6500 at 14% is 910. Yeah. That salesman lied too.

Out of payload and getting near max tongue weight with a 6500lb trailer.

 

[IvoryHemi]

Payload stickers themselves are only an estimate. The simplest thing to do to find out YOUR actual payload is fill up the gas tank and take it to a certified scale.

Subtract that weight from the GVWR on your door jam and that’s YOUR payload capacity.

If you don’t weigh the truck, then it’s all just a guessing game.

 

[devildodge]

Payload stickers themselves are only an estimate. The simplest thing to do to find out YOUR actual payload is fill up the gas tank and take it to a certified scale.

Subtract that weight from the GVWR on your door jam and that’s YOUR payload capacity.

If you don’t weigh the truck, then it’s all just a guessing game.

I agree the single best thing a person can do is get the CAT scale App and go weigh there truck and then truck and trailer.

I do believe the payload rating is correct.

But, I think the discrepancy comes from how someone fills their fuel tank and the +/- 20 lb variance per axle a CAT scale has.

The best thing to do is go fill your tank and drive on the scale. Get out or the truck and hit weigh.

The better thing to do is go loaded for camp and see where you can move weight to get as much to the front axle as possible and less to the rear axle.

Another reason I respect my 2500 more and more...no worries about the pillows

 

[HAL9001]

Payload stickers themselves are only an estimate. The simplest thing to do to find out YOUR actual payload is fill up the gas tank and take it to a certified scale.

Subtract that weight from the GVWR on your door jam and that’s YOUR payload capacity.

If you don’t weigh the truck, then it’s all just a guessing game.

This, of course, is absolutely true and that's exactly where the problem lies for someone looking to buy an RV.

What does someone like me do? I'm currently looking for a travel trailer that I can safely tow with my 2021 RAM 1500 Limited. My VIN came back with a Maximum Payload of 1,156 lbs and a Maximum Towing weight of 11,056 lbs, and it has a Class IV hitch with a maximum tongue weight of 1100 lbs. So, that's the best case of what I have to work with. A RAM 2500 or larger was out of the cards for me for many practical reasons.

Even travel trailers classified as "Lightweight", "Featherweight", "Ultralight", "Half-Ton Towable", etc. come with a dry tongue weight of 500-950+ lbs. And that's before the options most people want or need. And, if that wasn't bad enough, they almost always put the big external storage compartment, the propane tanks, and usually the batteries right directly over the trailer hitch.

With my truck, the tongue weight is obviously going to be the first and foremost limiting factor. So, what do I have on hand to figure out what I can purchase that will be in spec? Nothing more than a probably fudged dry tongue weight from the RV manufacturer. Everything else is pure speculation. Even if I choose one with a dry tongue weight of say only 600 lbs, I have no idea what the actual tongue weight will be once I add all the cargo. It could easily go out of spec. That depends upon many factors such as the axle position, the number of axles, the weight placement and distribution of the options and cargo, the locations of the water tanks, and any cargo weight I can try to use in the back of the trailer as a possible offset. Without actually having the trailer in my possession and experimenting, I can't realistically try out or weigh anything. I can only guess. No dealer is going to let me order a trailer, have it built, and then give it to me to experiment and weigh it before I agree to buy it. They won't even do that with the few they have left in stock. I can only make my best guess and hope for the best. Even if I try to choose one with the lowest dry tongue weight, it may in fact end up worse than one with a higher dry weight due to the configuration and weight distribution of each specific trailer. There is nothing for me to do but make my best guess.

Everyone else is in the same boat if they attempt to try and closely match a tow vehicle with a trailer. It's just hit or miss.

 

[devildodge]

You got two choices.

Hook and go, add airbags like 95% of people do.

Or understand the capacities, and drive yourself crazy trying to stay under them.

My pet peeve for 1500s is...you can haul or tow...but you can not haul while towing.