RAM Payload Definition in Regards to Towing

[Willwork4truck]

That's a great question - how are GVWR determined. You've got to look for the "weakest link" in the chain of axles, rims, tires, brakes, gearing, frames etc.
I'm no engineer and you'd think there was something that the big 3 are using as most of their payloads are commenserate (RAM with coils being the least overall).

I Googled and came up with this reasonable article: https://www.ntea.com/NTEA/Member_be...GVWR_and_GCWR_in_specifying_work_trucks1.aspx

An excerpt says: (Begin copied portion, bolding in text is mine):
By Bob Raybuck, NTEA Director of Technical Services

"Often, GVWR and gross vehicle weight (GVW) are thought to be the same, but they are not. A truck’s GVWR is the maximum weight rating established by the chassis manufacturer. GVW is the total weight of the truck and payload at a point in time.

There’s a common misconception that a truck’s GVWR is determined by adding gross axle weight ratings (GAWRs) together for all axles. Although this was a common way of calculating GVWR many years ago, it’s no longer an accurate method. The chassis manufacturer task of establishing a vehicle GVWR is much more difficult today due to advancement of safety system standards and how vehicles meet these requirements. This is why many trucks have a GVWR much lower than the combined axle ratings. It’s not uncommon for a truck with a GVWR of 19,500 pounds to have a front axle rated at 7,500 pounds and a rear axle rated at 14,700 pounds. Safety standards that apply to braking, vehicle stability, and chassis manufacturer internal standards for durability, dynamic stability and handling can restrict GVWR even though the sum of the axle ratings exceeds 22,000 pounds. In this instance, the OEM set the GVWR at 19,500 pounds based on test results and vehicle dynamic performance to ensure a safe, reliable truck.

A specific vehicle’s GCWR is based on parameters established by chassis manufacturers. The manufacturer makes an assessment in accordance with SAE International test protocols, determining maximum GCWR. Additionally, the OEM runs stringent tests based on internal requirements which may include testing total GCWR braking capability using only the towing vehicle chassis braking system. GCWR is the total weight of the truck pulling the trailer and the trailer itself. The truck chassis dictates proper GCWR for safe operation of the combination truck and trailer."

End of copied portion (the rest isn't applicable).

 

[Nsleone]

That's a great question - how are GVWR determined. You've got to look for the "weakest link" in the chain of axles, rims, tires, brakes, gearing, frames etc.
I'm no engineer and you'd think there was something that the big 3 are using as most of their payloads are commenserate (RAM with coils being the least overall).

I Googled and came up with this reasonable article: https://www.ntea.com/NTEA/Member_be...GVWR_and_GCWR_in_specifying_work_trucks1.aspx

An excerpt says: (Begin copied portion, bolding in text is mine):
By Bob Raybuck, NTEA Director of Technical Services

"Often, GVWR and gross vehicle weight (GVW) are thought to be the same, but they are not. A truck’s GVWR is the maximum weight rating established by the chassis manufacturer. GVW is the total weight of the truck and payload at a point in time.

There’s a common misconception that a truck’s GVWR is determined by adding gross axle weight ratings (GAWRs) together for all axles. Although this was a common way of calculating GVWR many years ago, it’s no longer an accurate method. The chassis manufacturer task of establishing a vehicle GVWR is much more difficult today due to advancement of safety system standards and how vehicles meet these requirements. This is why many trucks have a GVWR much lower than the combined axle ratings. It’s not uncommon for a truck with a GVWR of 19,500 pounds to have a front axle rated at 7,500 pounds and a rear axle rated at 14,700 pounds. Safety standards that apply to braking, vehicle stability, and chassis manufacturer internal standards for durability, dynamic stability and handling can restrict GVWR even though the sum of the axle ratings exceeds 22,000 pounds. In this instance, the OEM set the GVWR at 19,500 pounds based on test results and vehicle dynamic performance to ensure a safe, reliable truck.

A specific vehicle’s GCWR is based on parameters established by chassis manufacturers. The manufacturer makes an assessment in accordance with SAE International test protocols, determining maximum GCWR. Additionally, the OEM runs stringent tests based on internal requirements which may include testing total GCWR braking capability using only the towing vehicle chassis braking system. GCWR is the total weight of the truck pulling the trailer and the trailer itself. The truck chassis dictates proper GCWR for safe operation of the combination truck and trailer."

End of copied portion (the rest isn't applicable).

Awesome find! I just wish there was somewhere that had the “weakest link” stated for the Ram’s. I’m doing air helper bags to assist the coil springs since I know that’s certainly a point that makes the GVWR lower than GM and Ford, but we’ve mentioned frame on this thread as well and that is not something so easily changed/ strengthened. It is nice to know they do stringent tests, just wish there was a standard, just like they use to find GCWR.

 

[Redfour5]

Awesome find! I just wish there was somewhere that had the “weakest link” stated for the Ram’s. I’m doing air helper bags to assist the coil springs since I know that’s certainly a point that makes the GVWR lower than GM and Ford, but we’ve mentioned frame on this thread as well and that is not something so easily changed/ strengthened. It is nice to know they do stringent tests, just wish there was a standard, just like they use to find GCWR.

Actually, Ram did just that with the frame making it stronger and lighter due to steel type changes and design.

I think they lightened things by something like 225 lbs. https://www.motor1.com/news/226890/2019-ram-1500-detroit-debut/

 

[Nsleone]

Actually, Ram did just that with the frame making it stronger and lighter due to steel type changes and design.

I think they lightened things by something like 225 lbs. https://www.motor1.com/news/226890/2019-ram-1500-detroit-debut/

Oh yeah ram certainly did improve the frame over the 4th gens but the GVWR’s are not up by very much given the improvements they made, it seems like the improvements they made would bump the GVWR up in the 7300-7500 range ( stronger frame, 6 lugs, biggest brakes in class) but I’m no engineer either. It seems to me the most obvious limiting factor is the coils but if that were the case I would imagine the air suspension models would get a higher rating? Not sure but I’m going to add the airlift 1000HD springs to the rear and see how the truck handles at and maybe slightly above GVWR

 

[Redfour5]

Oh yeah ram certainly did improve the frame over the 4th gens but the GVWR’s are not up by very much given the improvements they maid, it seems like the improvements they made would bump the GVWR up in the 7300-7500 range ( stomper frame, 6 lugs, biggest brakes in class) but I’m no engineer either. It seems to me the most obvious limiting factor is the coils but if that were the case I would imagine the air suspension models would get a higher rating? Not sure but I’m going to add the airlift 1000HD springs to the rear and see how the truck handles at and maybe slightly above GVWR

I have a set of the airlifts in the garage waiting.. I wanted to try it out on a few hundred mile trip without the airbags. I had them on my 2015 and liked them. DON"T let them remove the springs to install. They do NOT have to do that but many places do not know that. This video

shows you the "hotdog" method. I had to show it to the shop that did mine. Save quite a few bucks on install unless you are doing it yourself then save time and cussing.

 

[silver billet]

I'm not sure there is anything wrong with the Ram suspension. These trucks have been tested heavily by TFL Truck and Truck King etc, they squat just as many inches (down to the quarter inch) as every other regular halfton with the same load. The Ram 2500 uses coils, and I believe it was DevilDodge who said they used coil springs as suspension on train box cars, so there's that.

I had airlift bags on my truck and pulled them off, they will change the unloaded ride quality.

My opinion now, you're better off dialing in your WDH accurately, then fiddling around with air bags. Perhaps timbren springs are the best option if you're always maxing out payload (which I don't).

 

[Nsleone]

I have a set of the airlifts in the garage waiting.. I wanted to try it out on a few hundred mile trip without the airbags. I had them on my 2015 and liked them. DON"T let them remove the springs to install. They do NOT have to do that but many places do not know that. This video

shows you the "hotdog" method. I had to show it to the shop that did mine. Save quite a few bucks on install unless you are doing it yourself then save time and cussing.

Oh yeah, I’m probably going to end up doing them myself and as such I did see a few videos of the hotdog method. Thanks

 

[Nsleone]

I'm not sure there is anything wrong with the Ram suspension. These trucks have been tested heavily by TFL Truck and Truck King etc, they squat just as many inches (down to the quarter inch) as every other regular halfton with the same load. The Ram 2500 uses coils, and I believe it was DevilDodge who said they used coil springs as suspension on train box cars, so there's that.

I had airlift bags on my truck and pulled them off, they will change the unloaded ride quality.

My opinion now, you're better off dialing in your WDH accurately, then fiddling around with air bags. Perhaps timbren springs are the best option if you're always maxing out payload (which I don't).

From what I have learned, it’s not the coils themselves that’s the issue it’s the fact that the trucks use a five link rear suspension system. The five link is what gives the ram what most people believe to be the nicest ride out of the big three, but in that it sacrifices a bit of driver confidence when towing or hauling heavy. The five link is much more prone to sway issues when compared to a normal leaf spring suspension because it has so many different points to connect and since all those connections have bushings it’s more likely to wiggle around a bit.

now me personally I’ve never experienced this and I’ve towed up to 10,000 pounds with my 1500, but this problem apparently becomes more noticeable when towing something like a camper or box trailer that has a large side profile.

 

[Nsleone]

I'm not sure there is anything wrong with the Ram suspension. These trucks have been tested heavily by TFL Truck and Truck King etc, they squat just as many inches (down to the quarter inch) as every other regular halfton with the same load. The Ram 2500 uses coils, and I believe it was DevilDodge who said they used coil springs as suspension on train box cars, so there's that.

I had airlift bags on my truck and pulled them off, they will change the unloaded ride quality.

My opinion now, you're better off dialing in your WDH accurately, then fiddling around with air bags. Perhaps timbren springs are the best option if you're always maxing out payload (which I don't).

Bummer to hear you were not happy with the air lift the bags, how much worse was the ride quality? If you don’t mind me asking what psi did you have the bag set at when the truck was unloaded?

 

[silver billet]

From what I have learned, it’s not the coils themselves that’s the issue it’s the fact that the trucks use a five link rear suspension system. The five link is what gives the ram what most people believe to be the nicest ride out of the big three, but in that it sacrifices a bit of driver confidence when towing or hauling heavy. The five link is much more prone to sway issues when compared to a normal leaf spring suspension because it has so many different points to connect and since all those connections have bushings it’s more likely to wiggle around a bit.

now me personally I’ve never experienced this and I’ve towed up to 10,000 pounds with my 1500, but this problem apparently becomes more noticeable when towing something like a camper or box trailer that has a large side profile.

That's interesting, but it seems to me that if the multiple connections were the problem, it would ride bad unloaded too. But it doesn't, it's tight, and does not "side skip" over railroad tracks like the F150 and GM twins do. It's not a loose, sloppy suspension by any means. Tires might need to be investigated too though.

Bummer to hear you were not happy with the air lift the bags, how much worse was the ride quality? If you don’t mind me asking what psi did you have the bag set at when the truck was unloaded?

It was noticable, especially on roads that I traveled every day for 2 years before putting the airbags on. The same bumps/cracks hit harder, and I aired it down until it was squeaking at which point you begin to destroy the bags. I tried everything between 3 and 10, bought one of those little pressure gauges that only goes up to 12 or 15 so I know it was fairly accurate.

Just depends on how bothered you are by that sort of thing. The Ram ride quality was a huge selling point over the other trucks, I just didn't want to give that up. I may as well buy a 2500 then and get more power + payload at the same time.

 

[Nsleone]

That's interesting, but it seems to me that if the multiple connections were the problem, it would ride bad unloaded too. But it doesn't, it's tight, and does not "side skip" over railroad tracks like the F150 and GM twins do. It's not a loose, sloppy suspension by any means. Tires might need to be investigated too though.



It was noticable, especially on roads that I traveled every day for 2 years before putting the airbags on. The same bumps/cracks hit harder, and I aired it down until it was squeaking at which point you begin to destroy the bags. I tried everything between 3 and 10, bought one of those little pressure gauges that only goes up to 12 or 15 so I know it was fairly accurate.

Just depends on how bothered you are by that sort of thing. The Ram ride quality was a huge selling point over the other trucks, I just didn't want to give that up. I may as well buy a 2500 then and get more power + payload at the same time.

Yeah, tires seem to be the most forgotten part about the whole setup. Maybe the sway issues are only with guys on 18” Rims. I’ve got 20”s and have never experienced the issue. Which airlift model bags did you have? 1000HD?

 

[Redfour5]

Bummer to hear you were not happy with the air lift the bags, how much worse was the ride quality? If you don’t mind me asking what psi did you have the bag set at when the truck was unloaded?

When I had them on the 2015, I had them at like 3 psi when unloaded. You still knew they were there, but not much.

 

[Redfour5]

When I had them on the 2015, I had them at like 3 psi when unloaded. You still knew they were there, but not much.

 

[silver billet]

Yeah, tires seem to be the most forgotten part about the whole setup. Maybe the sway issues are only with guys on 18” Rims. I’ve got 20”s and have never experienced the issue. Which airlift model bags did you have? 1000HD?

Yes the 1000 HD.

I had 18's factory and swapped to 20's, didn't make much difference if any. Dialing in my WDH and getting the tongue weight up was a huge help.

Think my tires are still a little too squishy for my liking, they're michelin defenders which is more of a street tire and not the best for towing but again, I'm a sucker for that soft cushy ride

 

[Nsleone]

Yes the 1000 HD.

I had 18's factory and swapped to 20's, didn't make much difference if any. Dialing in my WDH and getting the tongue weight up was a huge help.

Think my tires are still a little too squishy for my liking, they're michelin defenders which is more of a street tire and not the best for towing but again, I'm a sucker for that soft cushy ride

Do you still have the bags lying around somewhere? I’d buy them from ya if you don’t want them anymore. I’m curious to try them out. Is your truck a 5’7 bed or 6’4? I think the longer wheelbase might help with the ride ( I’ve got the 6’4)

 

[Redfour5]

Yes the 1000 HD.

I had 18's factory and swapped to 20's, didn't make much difference if any. Dialing in my WDH and getting the tongue weight up was a huge help.

Think my tires are still a little too squishy for my liking, they're michelin defenders which is more of a street tire and not the best for towing but again, I'm a sucker for that soft cushy ride

I have the Falken AT's with the ORP, and am a bit worried about the "squishy" nature of them but they are a step up from the Michelins from that standpoint. I'll fill em up to 41 or so and see. I used KO2's on my 2013 and 2015 and they were fantastic for towing up around 50 PSI not a squish to be found... But, they are NOT inexpensive AND they do not have the longest lifespan either. So, you can count pretty much on a new set before 40K miles to maintain optimum snow/ice and water characteristics, a very important element of Montana driving. So, unless these Falken's surprise me, when it comes time I will likely go that way... Three sets of them convinced me on their capabilities. For me, the off road aspects of the KO2's was just gravy.

 

[silver billet]

Do you still have the bags lying around somewhere? I’d buy them from ya if you don’t want them anymore. I’m curious to try them out. Is your truck a 5’7 bed or 6’4? I think the longer wheelbase might help with the ride ( I’ve got the 6’4)

No I don't, unfortunately. I have the 5'7 bed.

 

[Willwork4truck]

I think everyone is missing the point here. What you need is a good hitch mod: The Woodgerflangerler.

It's a known fact that wood has more springy give than does steel. Steel, if cast/forged/heated wrong becomes brittle. Stress cracks develop.
Why I had an old GMC 1 ton where the main leaf spring (the thickest bottom one) had cracked right in half! Now there's the deficiencies of steel for you.

Wood though, see it bends then comes back. Wooden boats take the waves better. Wooden airplanes absorb more punishment. If the space shuttle had been wood, why...you know

So get yourself a wooden hitch and be done with all this towing mumbo-jumbo.

I'm offering custom whittled Woodgerflangerlertm hitch inserts (no drop) for 3 easy payments of just $39.95. Act now and get the shavings with it as packing! Operators are standing by.


And while we are on the topic of payload and towing, all you'ze guys are doing this here 5th wheel thing wrong!
The proper setup is like this: No wonder you say a 1500 can't pull a fiver!

 

[Nsleone]

I think everyone is missing the point here. What you need is a good hitch mod: The Woodgerflangerler.

It's a known fact that wood has more springy give than does steel. Steel, if cast/forged/heated wrong becomes brittle. Stress cracks develop.
Why I had an old GMC 1 ton where the main leaf spring (the thickest bottom one) had cracked right in half! Now there's the deficiencies of steel for you.

Wood though, see it bends then comes back. Wooden boats take the waves better. Wooden airplanes absorb more punishment. If the space shuttle had been wood, why...you know

So get yourself a wooden hitch and be done with all this towing mumbo-jumbo.

I'm offering custom whittled Woodgerflangerlertm hitch inserts (no drop) for 3 easy payments of just $39.95. Act now and get the shavings with it as packing! Operators are standing by.
View attachment 102188

And while we are on the topic of payload and towing, all you'ze guys are doing this here 5th wheel thing wrong!
The proper setup is like this: No wonder you say a 1500 can't pull a fiver!
View attachment 102189

Nice!

 

[Nsleone]

Okay back to the main topic, payload regarding towing…

Personally I have my focus on the Axle ratings, not so much the gvwr. A little neat fact, the baseline ram have close to a 60/40 weight split front/rear. My truck personally has about 3300 up front and 2250 on the rear. The RAWR is 4100!! You have over 1700 pounds of capacity there, much more than my trucks mid-1500 payload.

Everyone has their own opinions of course, mine personally is this, Limit your tongue weight, 1290 is what Ram says with a WDH, 1100 without. A camper big enough to have a 1200 plus tongue weight is pretty large for a 1500.

Assuming a new payload in the 1700’s , even if you use the WDH and subtract maybe 100 pounds of tongue weight that got shifted to the front axles or back to the trailer you’ve got another 5-700 pounds left for the rear. That’s how I do the math. I try to keep the total truck weight under 7500 but some go as high as 8000 since both axles add up to that on the 4x4 models.