If you bought a truck that's not a Ram

[silver billet]

Sorry, I didn't mean to make that sound aggressive, you mentioned that Ford uses turbos and RAM uses superchargers, my only point is that RAM only uses superchargers on a very specific engine that isn't common while the vast majority of their engines are naturally aspirated. The application of forced induction from Ford and RAM isn't on the same level.

Magic made the claim that Ford is smoking Ram in terms of engine tech. But just because Ram chooses to use N/A for most of their engines, that doesn't mean they are being left behind. Clearly, the use of large amounts of v8's, as well as supercharged v8's, shows they have the skill, knowledge, and tech to do this and be more than competitive with Ford. Just because Ford offers more amounts of something (forced induction engines), doesn't mean they have more skill in that area.

"Leaving in the dusty", you mean literally or figuratively? Sure, a TRX will smoke a Raptor (for now). If you mean by modern engine tech, absolutely. Ford has small displacement turbos, hybrids and soon an electric. GM even has a 4-banger turbo and will also have a hybrid and full electric. RAM has what, E-Torque? RAM has already admitted that they are behind in engine tech and are working on catching up. Some talk of an electric I heard, though nothing specific.

I didn't use the phrase "leaving in the dust", that was Magic's phrase that I'm trying to debunk. There is not much difference between etorque and a full on hybrid, other than bigger battery. The etorque battery provides torque at the same time as the engine does, and it's smooth and seamless.

Tire shredding V8s is cool, but not exactly forward thinking is it? You need more if you are going to stay competitive in the future, unless you just want to be the muscle truck brand and running 3rd fiddle in sales like they have historically.

The tire shredding v8's isn't their only party trick, just one of the most desirable ones. I used that example to prove that Ram can do both N/A and forced induction, they are not "catching up" to Ford's use of FI, they surpass them.

When I said my 2.7L was a "Jewel", I meant it was a nice motor with good power, efficiency and reliability. But you compare it to a 808 hp motor? I wasn't comparing the most common motor found in the F-series to the least common motor found on FCA vehicles.

We need to define "jewel", because we have different requirements from our engines. Somebody who wants a city truck might find the 2.7 a jewel, somebody who wants a tow rig might find the 2.7 quite inadequate. Someone who wants a demon won't even look at the 2.7. Many people who own the hemi, prefer it over Ford's turbos, despite losing in a 0 to 60. And as for MPG, like I said, it's all over the place and depends on what you're doing with the truck. What defines a "jewel" is different to different people, it has nothing to do with how common it is in a trim. Myself, I would never use the phrase "jewel" for 2.7.

My 2.7L got me 7 mpg better than my 5.7L on the same drive, also faster. But again, as I mentioned earlier, I like my Hemi more because its powerful enough and sounds great. You can love your RAM and still be open minded about the competition. I don't have any brand loyalty, I buy what I feel is the best, and right now that's the RAM. But I can also say they won't stay there for long if they don't start progressing. Heck, GM has a mid-cycle refresh for their Silverados and Sierras, what is RAM doing for 2022?

I'm not brand loyal at all; I've posted my fair share of praise for both GM's drivetrains (which I've said I feel is best in class), as well as Toyota's legendary durability. But Ford does absolutely nothing for me; they look ugly (especially the side rear/bed, just a giant square slab with no curves or muscle lines or styling), use too many turbos, ride jittery, have mediocre interiors (until recently), and cost more than better products. They are lightweight and can get you to 60 slightly faster, if you care about that, which is the last feature I look for in a truck.


Remember, even Ford doesn't trust turbos in their trucks that see real work. They spent millions developing a new big block 7.3 for several reasons. Those same reasons are why I want a hemi and not a 2.7.

 

[SBrentnall]

Magic made the claim that Ford is smoking Ram in terms of engine tech. But just because Ram chooses to use N/A for most of their engines, that doesn't mean they are being left behind. Clearly, the use of large amounts of v8's, as well as supercharged v8's, shows they have the skill, knowledge, and tech to do this and be more than competitive with Ford. Just because Ford offers more amounts of something (forced induction engines), doesn't mean they have more skill in that area.



I didn't use the phrase "leaving in the dust", that was Magic's phrase that I'm trying to debunk. There is not much difference between etorque and a full on hybrid, other than bigger battery. The etorque battery provides torque at the same time as the engine does, and it's smooth and seamless.


The tire shredding v8's isn't their only party trick, just one of the most desirable ones. I used that example to prove that Ram can do both N/A and forced induction, they are not "catching up" to Ford's use of FI, they surpass them.



We need to define "jewel", because we have different requirements from our engines. Somebody who wants a city truck might find the 2.7 a jewel, somebody who wants a tow rig might find the 2.7 quite inadequate. Someone who wants a demon won't even look at the 2.7. Many people who own the hemi, prefer it over Ford's turbos, despite losing in a 0 to 60. And as for MPG, like I said, it's all over the place and depends on what you're doing with the truck. What defines a "jewel" is different to different people, it has nothing to do with how common it is in a trim. Myself, I would never use the phrase "jewel" for 2.7.



I'm not brand loyal at all; I've posted my fair share of praise for both GM's drivetrains (which I've said I feel is best in class), as well as Toyota's legendary durability. But Ford does absolutely nothing for me; they look ugly (especially the side rear/bed, just a giant square slab with no curves or muscle lines or styling), use too many turbos, ride jittery, have mediocre interiors (until recently), and cost more than better products. They are lightweight and can get you to 60 slightly faster, if you care about that, which is the last feature I look for in a truck.


Remember, even Ford doesn't trust turbos in their trucks that see real work. They spent millions developing a new big block 7.3 for several reasons. Those same reasons are why I want a hemi and not a 2.7.

There’s a lot to recommend each brand. I was planning on buying a Ford with the powerboost engine because of the gas mileage and ultra low (for a truck) emissions. However, after following this forum and the Ford one for months, it’s clear that the Ford has a lot of first gen problems.

The RAM interior is nicer, but the Ford is acceptable and better than in the past. Ultimately, the reports of rust, weird electrical issues and alarms going off, the incredibly long wait for delivery, and Ford’s “screw you” statements about the rust, convinced me to choose Ram and I placed my Limited order on Friday.

 

[SD Rebel]

Magic made the claim that Ford is smoking Ram in terms of engine tech. But just because Ram chooses to use N/A for most of their engines, that doesn't mean they are being left behind. Clearly, the use of large amounts of v8's, as well as supercharged v8's, shows they have the skill, knowledge, and tech to do this and be more than competitive with Ford. Just because Ford offers more amounts of something (forced induction engines), doesn't mean they have more skill in that area.

They are buying millions of carbon credits from Tesla, they have for the last few years, they can't keep doing that. They don't have anything in the smaller displacement high powered engine area that competes with Ford or GM. They are behind in engine tech and they don't deny it. Nothing wrong with being behind, just catch up.

I didn't use the phrase "leaving in the dust", that was Magic's phrase that I'm trying to debunk. There is not much difference between etorque and a full on hybrid, other than bigger battery. The etorque battery provides torque at the same time as the engine does, and it's smooth and seamless.

Did you say there isn't much a difference between E-Torque and a full on hybrid other than a bigger battery??? Full hybrids do a lot more than helping you out from a stop. E-Torque is nothing compared to an actual hybrid in terms of function and performance. Like comparing a rubber band to an actual motor.

The tire shredding v8's isn't their only party trick, just one of the most desirable ones. I used that example to prove that Ram can do both N/A and forced induction, they are not "catching up" to Ford's use of FI, they surpass them.

Desirable for enthusiast sure, especially sporty cars, which is why the ancient Challengersaurus and Chargersausur are actually beating the much better Camaro in sales. Yes, your whole car line can be just about that, which is mostly the case for FCA. Like I said, that's fine for now, but what about 10 years from now? As for the big V8 talk of RAM, where are the engines to compete against GM's 6.2L and Ford's 3.5L for towing?

We need to define "jewel", because we have different requirements from our engines. Somebody who wants a city truck might find the 2.7 a jewel, somebody who wants a tow rig might find the 2.7 quite inadequate. Someone who wants a demon won't even look at the 2.7. Many people who own the hemi, prefer it over Ford's turbos, despite losing in a 0 to 60. And as for MPG, like I said, it's all over the place and depends on what you're doing with the truck. What defines a "jewel" is different to different people, it has nothing to do with how common it is in a trim. Myself, I would never use the phrase "jewel" for 2.7.

Did I say I was representing the whole world? That was my opinion as the owner of a full size regular priced truck what I thought of my Ford's engine. Again, I respecting my past truck doesn't diminish my current one. You can like more than one thing by the way.

I'm not brand loyal at all; I've posted my fair share of praise for both GM's drivetrains (which I've said I feel is best in class), as well as Toyota's legendary durability. But Ford does absolutely nothing for me; they look ugly (especially the side rear/bed, just a giant square slab with no curves or muscle lines or styling), use too many turbos, ride jittery, have mediocre interiors (until recently), and cost more than better products. They are lightweight and can get you to 60 slightly faster, if you care about that, which is the last feature I look for in a truck.

I owned a Ford recently so I gave my positive experience, I had negatives about GM, so again, everyone is different. Mediocre interiors by the way were clearly a GM thing, hence the earlier than expected interior update on the GM twins for 2022 model year. I mean we were talking about a 6 year old F150 comparing to more recent updates by RAM and GM.

Remember, even Ford doesn't trust turbos in their trucks that see real work. They spent millions developing a new big block 7.3 for several reasons. Those same reasons are why I want a hemi and not a 2.7.

The 7.3L big reason for development was cost over a diesel option, and for the gasser big truck market. When towing heavy duty weight, there are better engines for that. The 5.7L Hemi isn't in any of the RAM heavy duties either. For that matter neither is Ford's 3.5L or GMs 6.2L. There are (as far as I know) no 1500 engines in current heavy duties regardless of configuration.

My 2.7L was not meant to be the tow king, but a good everyday engine, which was still capable of 9,000 lbs of towing. Not bad for the most common engine sold in the F-series lineup. Again, as I've said many times already, I prefer the 5.7L Hemi because of the overall power and sound which is why I'm driving one now.

 

[Fatherof3]

They are buying millions of carbon credits from Tesla, they have for the last few years, they can't keep doing that. They don't have anything in the smaller displacement high powered engine area that competes with Ford or GM. They are behind in engine tech and they don't deny it. Nothing wrong with being behind, just catch up.



Did you say there isn't much a difference between E-Torque and a full on hybrid other than a bigger battery??? Full hybrids do a lot more than helping you out from a stop. E-Torque is nothing compared to an actual hybrid in terms of function and performance. Like comparing a rubber band to an actual motor.



Desirable for enthusiast sure, especially sporty cars, which is why the ancient Challengersaurus and Chargersausur are actually beating the much better Camaro in sales. Yes, your whole car line can be just about that, which is mostly the case for FCA. Like I said, that's fine for now, but what about 10 years from now? As for the big V8 talk of RAM, where are the engines to compete against GM's 6.2L and Ford's 3.5L for towing?



Did I say I was representing the whole world? That was my opinion as the owner of a full size regular priced truck what I thought of my Ford's engine. Again, I respecting my past truck doesn't diminish my current one. You can like more than one thing by the way.



I owned a Ford recently so I gave my positive experience, I had negatives about GM, so again, everyone is different. Mediocre interiors by the way were clearly a GM thing, hence the earlier than expected interior update on the GM twins for 2022 model year. I mean we were talking about a 6 year old F150 comparing to more recent updates by RAM and GM.



The 7.3L big reason for development was cost over a diesel option, and for the gasser big truck market. When towing heavy duty weight, there are better engines for that. The 5.7L Hemi isn't in any of the RAM heavy duties either. For that matter neither is Ford's 3.5L or GMs 6.2L. There are (as far as I know) no 1500 engines in current heavy duties regardless of configuration.

My 2.7L was not meant to be the tow king, but a good everyday engine, which was still capable of 9,000 lbs of towing. Not bad for the most common engine sold in the F-series lineup. Again, as I've said many times already, I prefer the 5.7L Hemi because of the overall power and sound which is why I'm driving one now.

Agreed . I hope Ram puts a turbo inline 6 in the Ram as an option .

 

[silver billet]

They don't have anything in the smaller displacement high powered engine area that competes with Ford or GM. They are behind in engine tech and they don't deny it. Nothing wrong with being behind, just catch up.

No, they are not behind in the use of Forced induction. "doesn't offer" is not equal to "behind in modern engine tech" or, "doesn't have the skill/research/ability to offer it", which are different problems. You're equating those too, and that's your mistake. Clearly, they can build forced induction. They have turbos in their jeeps as well, for example. They don't offer it in Ram because they know their customer base; many of us still want N/A engines, not little turbos. FCA is very conservative which I'll agree with, and they may be last to market, but a lot of that is customer demand. Again, they CAN build FI engines, and not only do it, but thrash everyone in the process. Do you truly think that adding a turbo to an engine is above their skill set? Because if you don't think it's above their skills/tech, then "behind" is the wrong word here (more on that at the very end of my post).

Where is Ford's FI engine to match the demon? Using your logic, Ford is behind Ram because they "cannot" or don't offer a 707/808 hp monster. (Note the quotes, I believe Ford could if they saw a market for it or whatever, they simply choose not to at this time for one reason or another. )

Did you say there isn't much a difference between E-Torque and a full on hybrid other than a bigger battery??? Full hybrids do a lot more than helping you out from a stop.

I'm saying all the pieces Ram needs to offer a hybrid are already there. If you can design an etorque system, you can tweak it and drop in a bigger battery and throw in a large inverter. Ford had to buy their way into powerboost, BTW. And FCA has experience building hybrids, that minivan has been out for years.

As for the big V8 talk of RAM, where are the engines to compete against GM's 6.2L and Ford's 3.5L for towing?

Ram has two versions of the 6.4, if they can drop one in the wrangler they can drop one in the 1500. But the 5.7 can still pull 12000+ pounds, which is more than anybody should be pulling in a 1500 platform. My personal thought on that is that 8000 pounds is the limit; 2500's exist for a reason and should be used in that 8000+ to 16000ish range.

You can like more than one thing by the way.

Absolutely, as I stated long ago (several times now) in my preference for GM's power trains and Toyota's durability; I'm not a brand zealot.

Mediocre interiors by the way were clearly a GM thing, hence the earlier than expected interior update on the GM twins for 2022 model year.

GM can build some awesome interiors. Their last truck refresh missed the mark but they've done great work in other cars/suvs. Cadillac, the new Vette/Tahoe/Yukon etc. And guaranteed, if Ram hadn't come swinging out of nowhere with the 2019 interior, people would be making a lot less negative remarks about the GM interiors. In 2019, it was only lacking against Ram; I certainly didn't find it any worse than what Ford/Toyota/Nisaan was offering. And it's only in the upper trims, in lower trims their interior is quite competitive, it's just their denali/high country which doesn't have any spice compared to the work truck. I love my bighorn interior, but the Chevy LT and GMC SLE are quite comparable in the interior. And the rebel with that gorgeous red accent, but it's silly to think that GM couldn't offer something similar; they're not "behind", they just got their marketing research wrong and/or everyone changed their mind in 2019 when they saw what a nice interior could be like.

The 7.3L big reason for development was cost over a diesel option, and for the gasser big truck market. When towing heavy duty weight, there are better engines for that. The 5.7L Hemi isn't in any of the RAM heavy duties either. For that matter neither is Ford's 3.5L or GMs 6.2L. There are (as far as I know) no 1500 engines in current heavy duties regardless of configuration.

As of 2018(?) the 5.7 was an option in the Ram 2500. It's no longer competitive in terms of horsepower/torque for the 2500 usage, but in terms of durability there were no issues with it in the past. Again, Ford knows turbos won't last in trucks that work; that's the true writing on the wall for turbo owners; you can putt-putt around town or haul your travel trailer in the summer, but don't work it or your MPG will drop like a rock and we all know how long it will last in that environment.

My 2.7L was not meant to be the tow king, but a good everyday engine, which was still capable of 9,000 lbs of towing. Not bad for the most common engine sold in the F-series lineup. Again, as I've said many times already, I prefer the 5.7L Hemi because of the overall power and sound which is why I'm driving one now.

Even GM's 2.7 4 banger can do 9000+ pounds now, and that in a heavier truck (Ford is lightest on average).


Was Ford behind Ram for a few years when they had no competitor to etorque?
Was Ford behind Ram for a few years when they had no giant touch screen?
Was Ford behind Ram for a while when Ram had the first giant/panoramic sun roof?
Is Ford behind Ram because they don't offer air suspension?
Is Ford behind Ram because they don't even offer coil suspension yet?
Is Ford behind Ram because they don't offer Ram boxes?
And again, Is Ford behind Ram because they have no 700+ hp engine available?

I'm willing to bet you would say no for all of those, and so I actually.

I think I remember arguing this with you before; a manufacturer is not "behind" just because, 1) they don't offer Thing A and choose to offer Thing B instead (N/A vs FI), and 2) sometimes it's a matter of cycles, where each truck cycle they "one up" eachother (interiors etc). In the strictest sense, one could argue (like you guys do) that after each refresh a brand is "behind" the other, but I always take the long look over say 10 years (are their interiors consistently worse even after refreshes?), and also answer the question "could they do X"; it's not a stretch to imagine Ford could offer air suspension and/or coil springs. Just because they don't, it doesn't mean they're "behind in suspension technology", because "behind" has that subtle implication that "they're trying and simply can't do it yet", and the second implication is "that it must be better to have it" which is not the case with Ram and FI tech, nor is it the case with Ford and air; we all know any truck manufacturer could offer air if they figured it would work for their truck. It's a $500 bolt on.

 

[Biga]

Probably a GM if they had updated interiors. The Fords just don’t look good to me, very bland looking. Will see what the new Tundra looks like.

 

[devildodge]

You guys need to go drive your trucks more. Or trade them off so the prices will come back down.

Great reading material though.

 

[PurpleRT]

Other than a Ram.. Probably stick with my old roots GM.. Silverado high country looks good to me. Ford just never has done it for me. To bland and boring for me and I don’t want ecoboost anything in a full size pick up. Toyota... hard to say they’re not reliable but that’s not saying much when they continue to build basically the same truck for the last 20 years. Very boring truck. Take some risk like the other manufacturers for once and step out of your comfort zone.

 

[SD Rebel]

....
I think I remember arguing this with you before....

I was wondering when we would get to this

I loved debating this stuff with you Silver last time, pretty much exactly the same thing, I just want to see how long it would be before you mentioned it!

Again, great points, you brought up some even better ones this time. I think the reality is somewhere it the middle and we both have our own personal views on it.

 

[Fuzznutz]

Seems fitting here

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[silver billet]

You guys need to go drive your trucks more. Or trade them off so the prices will come back down.

Great reading material though.

We're in lockdown going through the highest wave yet and I am bored beyond measure. It's kind of dangerous since I tend to spend time on autotrader looking at 2500 cummins trying to convince myself that I could use one. A trade just might happen at some point.

 

[Fuzznutz]

We're in lockdown going through the highest wave yet and I am bored beyond measure. It's kind of dangerous since I tend to spend time on autotrader looking at 2500 cummins trying to convince myself that I could use one. A trade just might happen at some point.

I can help you with that. If you don't need one, don't. That's just my advise and opinion. My last 4 trucks were 3 cummins, and 1 duramax. I liked them all and had a purpose for them. At this point I'm so glad I don't need one anymore. Doing the things that needed done to get the reliability, longevity, and fuel mileage use to be easy. That's gotten pretty hard to do, if not almost impossible. Definately better know someone

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[silver billet]

I can help you with that. If you don't need one, don't. That's just my advise and opinion. My last 4 trucks were 3 cummins, and 1 duramax. I liked them all and had a purpose for them. At this point I'm so glad I don't need one anymore. Doing the things that needed done to get the reliability, longevity, and fuel mileage use to be easy. That's gotten pretty hard to do, if not almost impossible. Definately better know someone

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I'm not stuck on the cummins part of it, I could go 6.4 as well; it's more the heavy duty side of the 2500 which is what is pulling me in, I hope to go to a larger trailer at some point too.

 

[Finn5033]

I'm not stuck on the cummins part of it, I could go 6.4 as well; it's more the heavy duty side of the 2500 which is what is pulling me in, I hope to go to a larger trailer at some point too.

I have wanted a HD Ram for probably at least 6 years. I’ve had 3 different trucks and every time I’ve come so close to getting a 2500 and ultimately wimped out. I still go online and look at them from time to time. I have a custom RV/Fish house being built and don’t know for sure how much it will weigh and what the tongue weight will be. All I know is if I need to I’ll be trading up in a couple months when the rig is ready

All I know is it’s an itch I’ve had for a long time and I don’t think it will ever go away until I scratch it

 

[Fuzznutz]

I have wanted a HD Ram for probably at least 6 years. I’ve had 3 different trucks and every time I’ve come so close to getting a 2500 and ultimately wimped out. I still go online and look at them from time to time. I have a custom RV/Fish house being built and don’t know for sure how much it will weigh and what the tongue weight will be. All I know is if I need to I’ll be trading up in a couple months when the rig is ready

All I know is it’s an itch I’ve had for a long time and I don’t think it will ever go away until I scratch it

They most definately have their place. One other thing I'd mention is the ride. I actually switched to 2500 duramax after owning the three 3500 cummins. Solid front axle rams will rattle your teeth out.
Don't get me wrong guys, I loved those trucks, and absolutely loved the cummins. They have their place, and are great if you need them. If I ever occasionally would have a need again someday, I'd look for pre emissions 5.9 cummins in good shape. It either be a 6 speed manual with a built clutch, or I'd put an aftermarket auto in.

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[z0n3]

Probably a silverado. I looked at the interior on their website though and decided not to even test drive one.

 

[Timeless]

Probably a silverado. I looked at the interior on their website though and decided not to even test drive one.

View attachment 93292

It is amazingly disappointing. If it were even close to the Ram they would have the edge with the 6.2 v8.

 

[‘19ramlveryeha]

I'm normally a Ford guy, had a 2015 which I loved. I do get bored every few years and tend to get something new, however the all new F150 looks too much like the one before, even though it's all new, which makes me want something else. If they were more adventurous with the exterior & interior design, it would likely be my next truck.

However, I do like how the Silverado Trail Boss looks, and they are finally fixing the interior, that would likely be something I would consider. Probably a 6.2L LT with the Trail Boss trim.

Also, the Tundra is finally being redesigned, and I heard they went big with it, in terms of design and innovation. I would like to see what they came up with on that one as well.

Interior of the new Tahoe’s according to my sales manager buddy at the local Chevy dealership.


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[habu987]

If I were to buy based on what's available today, almost certainly a F-150 Powerboost or F-250 Powerstroke.

If I were to buy next year, to include trucks that haven't been formally launched or made available yet, here's the light duty list:

1. Sierra Denali 3.0 (only assuming the interior update is a big step up from what it is today, otherwise it's not on the list)
2. F-150 Powerboost
3. F-150 Lightning
4. Toyota Tundra

Looking at 2500 series trucks, it would be the F-250 Powerstroke slightly ahead of the Denali Duramax.

All that said, I will be on the market for a new truck to replace mine this fall, so I'm quite looking forward to seeing the Sierra interior redesign and the Tundra. I'm certainly leaning towards just swapping mine out for a '22 3.0, but if the Sierra and Tundra are available when I start looking in 4-5 months, I'll definitely check them out.

 

[Snakes709]

AT4 with the 6.2. Wait, i did buy it lol. Love it. Tailgate and HUD is awesome.