How often do you change your engine oil?

[silver billet]

Can you show us exactly where the Blackstone report states the oil should have been changed sooner to prevent lifter failure?
Or where the oil has sufficient life left to service the rest of the motor, but… changing it sooner would prevent or stall lifter failure?

My point.. one has nothing do with the other.

This forum doesn't allow links to the other forum which has discussed this in nauseating detail. The information is there if you google it.

Blackstone can't tell you the state of carbon/varnish buildup, which is one theory as to what is taking out the lifters. Keeping your oil clean is the first step in keeping those needle bearings free from crud.

I use a high efficiency filter, and also run HPL which is exceptional at cleaning, as well as having massive amounts of friction and anti-wear ingredients. I also run 0w-30 or 5w-30.

None of this will guarantee you don't get lifter failure, but it will help your chances.

Many guys have run Redline and successfully heard their tick disappear either partly or completely. Again the details are on the other forum.

I generally don't get into these discussions anymore since they just degenerate into nothing very quickly. There is no straight line from Ram saying "you need to do X to prevent Y". But the information is out there if you want it, and if your mind is already made up that $30/qt oil is the same as $100/qt oil then no amount of evidence will be sufficient to change your mind, so why bother talking about it? It really makes no difference to me what you guys do, my truck gets the best treatment and chances it can possibly get.

 

[silver billet]

If there was a design flaw in oil delivery all Hemi's would have failed lifters. I think it's more likely they had a bad run of cams and or lifter's that weren't properly hardened. No lubricant strategy in the world can overcome that

No one really knows what's going on. My gut feeling is also that it's a vendor quality issue. But you'll never convince anyone who has used Redline to remove a tick, that different lubricants can't change/help things. And there are many reports of this.

 

[dajogejr]

I firmly believe it’s about luck of the draw for the most part.
That doesn’t mean I get stupid and completely ignore basic maintenance needs.
I wholeheartedly agree it is more about vendor quality control than anything else if you were to attempt to point a finger.
But even then, I’d lean on luck of the draw….

Years ago..there was a difference when you paid a premium on something.
Now…you’re paying the premium on marketing and distribution.
Technology has caught up to level the playing field for the most part.

Lifters…for example. There’s not a ton of manufacturers of them out there. Johnson is one of, if not the biggest.
Plenty of people put their name or spin on the box. Be it a small block Chevy lifter or a Harley Lifter..

 

[silver billet]

I firmly believe it’s about luck of the draw for the most part.
That doesn’t mean I get stupid and completely ignore basic maintenance needs.
I wholeheartedly agree it is more about vendor quality control than anything else if you were to attempt to point a finger.
But even then, I’d lean on luck of the draw….

Years ago..there was a difference when you paid a premium on something.
Now…you’re paying the premium on marketing and distribution.
Technology has caught up to level the playing field for the most part.

Lifters…for example. There’s not a ton of manufacturers of them out there. Johnson is one of, if not the biggest.
Plenty of people put their name or spin on the box. Be it a small block Chevy lifter or a Harley Lifter..

There are still major differences, not everything is just marketing.

Take HPL's oils for example, you won't find a higher quality oil anywhere else. They use premium materials and that's why it costs more. You can also find evidence of this high quality when you look at blackstone reports, the ones I've run show the high amounts of moly, calcium/magnesium etc, and also show very high TBN yet compared to the other oils I ran. There are stories on bitog of guys throwing HPL in those big Caterpillar diesel engines and saving thousands of dollars every year, not because the oil is cheaper but even though its more expensive it actually lasts longer in the engine and can be swapped out less often (backed up by UOA's of course). One guy on bitog is over 25k miles on the same oil in his pentastar with just filter swaps, all backed by UOA's, and visually inspected through a camera; that engine is so squeaky clean you could wipe the oil off and sell it as new (not exagerating in the slightest).

Do you need to run HPL every 5k? Nope. Guys have run dealer 5w-20 oil changed every 10000 miles and gotten good life out of their engine, but it's about risk and probabilities for me, and also the desired lifetime. If you plan to trade every 4 years then yeah running HPL is a little excessive.

Yeah I'm a huge fan of HPL. If you read bitog you'll quickly find out why, I'm just passing on what I've picked up.

 

[DEG]

According to a story I saw from a 25 year Chrysler mechanic on the "hemi tick" it's caused by the cam roller bearings on the lifter going bad and the lifter just bounces around on the camshaft lobe. Once it occurs you will never remove it by adding some kind of magic fluid. The damage is permanent until you replace the lifters and the cam shaft.

He indicated the most common occurrence of the hemi tick was in vehicles with high idle time. He said it was almost 100% occurrence in police vehicles with the hemi and many fleet vehicles left idling for long periods of time.

A cold start lifter tick that occurs longer than a few seconds could be a stuck lifter that might be freed with special fluids, but that's not really the hemi tick. Stuck lifters have occurred on vehicles since the invention of hydraulic lifters. My son had an old Mazda with over 200k on it that he severely overheated one day and several lifters stuck. A quart of Marvel Mystery Oil immediately freed them and quieted the noise. If you can't free it you will just need to change that lifter, but it won't normally be damaging the camshaft..

 

[NightRam2020]

Can you show us exactly where the Blackstone report states the oil should have been changed sooner to prevent lifter failure?
Or where the oil has sufficient life left to service the rest of the motor, but… changing it sooner would prevent or stall lifter failure?

My point.. one has nothing do with the other.

Blackstone got back to me this month on a 6,000mi oil change. I’m at 47,000mi. They recommend to try 7,000mi oil changes for now. I’m sure the interval will go up as I test until they find a magic number for mileage or reach Rams recommended oil change interval.

 

[silver billet]

According to a story I saw from a 25 year Chrysler mechanic on the "hemi tick" it's caused by the cam roller bearings on the lifter going bad and the lifter just bounces around on the camshaft lobe. Once it occurs you will never remove it by adding some kind of magic fluid. The damage is permanent until you replace the lifters and the cam shaft.

He indicated the most common occurrence of the hemi tick was in vehicles with high idle time. He said it was almost 100% occurrence in police vehicles with the hemi and many fleet vehicles left idling for long periods of time.

I've been looking at the hemi tick issue for 4.5 years of my ownership and every body has a theory. High idle time is NOT the cause. It's a correlation, meaning, as you use your engine more and more (whether that's time put on by driving or time put on by idling), if you have a bad lifter or junk oil it will eventually go. And/or if it's crud getting into your needle bearings then a higher quality oil can clean it out (HPL, probably Redline as well).

Police and Taxi cars are always used as evidence but keep in mind they are supposed to be serviced under the extreme duty cycle which means roughly once a month or month and a half, every 320 hours IIRC. Very few cars there get that treatment, again if anything this supports the theory that these engines want very fresh and very clean oil at all times. Most of them are just getting whatever bulk and cheap junk can be had in 5w-20 flavour, its terrible oil.

6.4's also get lifter failure. These SRT 6.4s are not fleet cars, they're engines in sport trims like the charger/challenger and also the BGE in the 2500 gets failures, the SRT 6.4 generally idles far less and still has the same number of failures percentage wise.

Redline and HPL is not "magic fluid". Remember there are about 100+ success stories on the other forum of using Redline to help though what exactly it is doing is not 100% certain, but it is most definitely reducing the noise which can only mean less/no further physical damage. It might not mean absolute prevention, but it definitely means extension.

 

[SD Rebel]

I've been looking at the hemi tick issue for 4.5 years of my ownership and every body has a theory. High idle time is NOT the cause. It's a correlation, meaning, as you use your engine more and more (whether that's time put on by driving or time put on by idling), if you have a bad lifter or junk oil it will eventually go. And/or if it's crud getting into your needle bearings then a higher quality oil can clean it out (HPL, probably Redline as well).

Police and Taxi cars are always used as evidence but keep in mind they are supposed to be serviced under the extreme duty cycle which means roughly once a month or month and a half, every 320 hours IIRC. Very few cars there get that treatment, again if anything this supports the theory that these engines want very fresh and very clean oil at all times. Most of them are just getting whatever bulk and cheap junk can be had in 5w-20 flavour, its terrible oil.

6.4's also get lifter failure. These SRT 6.4s are not fleet cars, they're engines in sport trims like the charger/challenger and also the BGE in the 2500 gets failures, the SRT 6.4 generally idles far less and still has the same number of failures percentage wise.

Redline and HPL is not "magic fluid". Remember there are about 100+ success stories on the other forum of using Redline to help though what exactly it is doing is not 100% certain, but it is most definitely reducing the noise which can only mean less/no further physical damage. It might not mean absolute prevention, but it definitely means extension.

Good point about the idling of Police and livery vehicles.

However, 6.4L also gets 40W oil from the factory if I recall? I remember that guy that does Hemi engine videos stated the 6.4L has just as many, if not more lifter failures than the 5.7L. So can't be the 20W oil then?

 

[kdoublep]

I would love get my hands on some internal memos from within RAM regarding lifters/cams. I know Fauci has something to do with lifter failure. He probably funded it!

 

[dajogejr]

There are still major differences, not everything is just marketing.

Take HPL's oils for example, you won't find a higher quality oil anywhere else. They use premium materials and that's why it costs more.

Every single oil manufacturer says the same.
Many have the same selling points.
They all use premium materials.
They all have higher content materials that are better.
They all protect longer, run cleaner.
They all foam less.
They all resist thermal breakdown maintaining viscosity longer.
They all flow better at temps and protect at start up.
I literally just looked up 10 or so synthetic oils, those are all the same talking points.

They all cost more because they are more expensive to manufacture and have premium components.

Anything mechanical can fail. I’m in the boat of engine failures are hardly ever the result of type of oil.
It’s either lack of oil or lack of oil maintenance to an extreme.
Your points, absolutely valid, are proper maintenance and not neglecting things.
I also think you’re going about it the right way, despite my disagreement on this oil or that oil being better, and let’s face it..neither of us is going to change the other’s mind or thought process. Nor…do we need to.

I think there are varying timelines for that maintenance. Some are on the conservative side…others are not.
I feel, fall within the range and things are the right balance between too much and not enough.

 

[silver billet]

Good point about the idling of Police and livery vehicles.

However, 6.4L also gets 40W oil from the factory if I recall? I remember that guy that does Hemi engine videos stated the 6.4L has just as many, if not more lifter failures than the 5.7L. So can't be the 20W oil then?

Same for those folks that assume the MDS is the cause, but the 6.4L has no MDS either.

The 20w doesn't offer enough protection while towing, the HT/HS is just too low. The 6.4 does have MDS in some packages/trims (definitely the 2500), but yes that's unrelated to lifter failure.

 

[silver billet]

Every single oil manufacturer says the same.
Many have the same selling points.
They all use premium materials.
They all have higher content materials that are better.
They all protect longer, run cleaner.
They all foam less.
They all resist thermal breakdown maintaining viscosity longer.
They all flow better at temps and protect at start up.
I literally just looked up 10 or so synthetic oils, those are all the same talking points.

Don't look at the marketing, look at the PDS for the oil as well as the VOA's. There are very clear differences.

 

[SD Rebel]

The 20w doesn't offer enough protection while towing, the HT/HS is just too low. The 6.4 does have MDS in some packages/trims (definitely the 2500), but yes that's unrelated to lifter failure.

Thanks for the update on MDS on the 6.4L.

However, are you stating that 20W isn't one of the reasons for Lifter Failure on the 5.7L? Or more specifically, that going to a thicker oil doesn't help with lifter issues?

 

[silver billet]

Thanks for the update on MDS on the 6.4L.

However, are you stating that 20W isn't one of the reasons for Lifter Failure on the 5.7L? Or more specifically, that going to a thicker oil doesn't help with lifter issues?

Hard to say. I think MDS is pretty cut and dried, we had MDS on engines from 2005 onwards with no real lifter issues until the redesign in 2009. The pre design had floating valves seats when overheated but that was it.

When it comes to oil, it's not as black and white. We know that there are pretty significant differences in oil formulas, some oils are definitely cleaner, offer significantly more protection, and offer longer OCI's. And we also know thicker oils (all else being the same) offer a higher HT/HS which absolutely does protect all parts of the engine better including lifters.

Keeping that in mind, if you are "worried" about the lifter issue and want to minimize the chance of failures, a thicker oil in the same brand/formula costs you absolutely nothing and does protect the engine (as a whole) better, that would include the lifters themselves, so why not run it? It may not protect against the "hemi tick" as we are defining it, but it certainly won't make it worse.

This is also my opinion on idling, I don't believe idling causes the failure but I'm still minimizing my chances of failure by minimizing idling.

 

[SD Rebel]

Hard to say. I think MDS is pretty cut and dried, we had MDS on engines from 2005 onwards with no real lifter issues until the redesign in 2009. The pre design had floating valves seats when overheated but that was it.

When it comes to oil, it's not as black and white. We know that there are pretty significant differences in oil formulas, some oils are definitely cleaner, offer significantly more protection, and offer longer OCI's. And we also know thicker oils (all else being the same) offer a higher HT/HS which absolutely does protect all parts of the engine better including lifters.

Keeping that in mind, if you are "worried" about the lifter issue and want to minimize the chance of failures, a thicker oil in the same brand/formula costs you absolutely nothing and does protect the engine (as a whole) better, that would include the lifters themselves, so why not run it? It may not protect against the "hemi tick" as we are defining it, but it certainly won't make it worse.

This is also my opinion on idling, I don't believe idling causes the failure but I'm still minimizing my chances of failure by minimizing idling.

Good points, but the other point could be made that thinner oil gets to the roller pins better which is a big reason why lifters fail on these engines. Maybe less effective than 30W in other aspects, but getting to harder to reach parts of the drivetrain is positive for 20W vs thicker oil.

As mentioned, the 6.4L has lifter failures using even thicker oil than you have recommended in 30W, using 0W-40 from the factory.

In the end, we really don't have solid explanation of benefits or negatives, just do what is comfortable for you, because it's just as likely it's simply a percentage of lifters are going to fail due to faulty manufacturing of the pins.

 

[DEG]

I've been looking at the hemi tick issue for 4.5 years of my ownership and every body has a theory. High idle time is NOT the cause.

Except I never said it was the cause and neither did the mechanic. Also, you can't possibly know high idle time is not the cause.

He also said it occurs in fewer than 5% of Hemi engines.

 

[silver billet]

Good points, but the other point could be made that thinner oil gets to the roller pins better which is a big reason why lifters fail on these engines. Maybe less effective than 30W in other aspects, but getting to harder to reach parts of the drivetrain is positive for 20W vs thicker oil.

That's not how oil works. Oil gets to all parts of the engine the same way at the same time regardless of viscosity (well, ignoring massively wild extremes of course, but we're comparing 20w vs 40w in a hemi).

The difference in thicker oils is the film strength and its ability to keep the physical parts separated.

 

[silver billet]

Except I never said it was the cause and neither did the mechanic.

I didn't say you said it. You did mention high idle times and that theory has been floated around for years, but it's simply a correlation and not a causation.

Also, you can't possibly know high idle time is not the cause.

Except we do. We have enough examples of engines that have very high idle hours and no lifter failures, and we have engines with low idle hours but still getting lifter failures. Common logic would indicate that the idle hours is not the cause or they'd all do it.

There is definitely a correlation though, it's simply related to engine runtime. The longer an engine with a bad/dirty lifter runs (whether idling or driving), the more likely you are to get the failure. Possibly exacerbated by very cheap bulk oil with no protection, and that type of oil is commonly used in fleet cars (so a second correlation to high idle times used in fleets).

He also said it occurs in fewer than 5% of Hemi engines.

I'd agree with that 100%!

 

[SD Rebel]

That's not how oil works. Oil gets to all parts of the engine the same way at the same time regardless of viscosity (well, ignoring massively wild extremes of course, but we're comparing 20w vs 40w in a hemi).

The difference in thicker oils is the film strength and its ability to keep the physical parts separated.

Not how it works? I've read plenty of engineering reports that thinner oil gets to places thicker oil doesn't as well, you can't say they all get there equally at the same time can you? They all get there eventually, but there is a reason for different weights and thickness right? They flow better at temperature when thinner. Good reason why my E90 went from 60W to 50W recommendation due to the already tight bearing tolerances leading to excessive wear. The thicker oil took longer to lubricate the bearings, especially when cold, when lubrication is most critical.

Again, you haven't answered my first question in two replies regarding the 6.4L using 40W oil and still getting lifter failure. That it can't be thinner oil being the cause for the lifter failures on 5.7L if the 6.4L uses thicker oil and still has the same lifter issues. Can you respond to that?

 

[DEG]

Except we do. We have enough examples of engines that have very high idle hours and no lifter failures, and we have engines with low idle hours but still getting lifter failures. Common logic would indicate that the idle hours is not the cause or they'd all do it.

The story I read never said you couldn't have the issue with low idle hours, but they did say the frequency was astronomically higher in motors with very high idle hours. The belief that it can't be the cause because not all high idle Hemi's have the issue is called an anecdotal evidence fallacy; not logic.

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