Got oil cooler? No, u don’t...

[HoosierTrooper]

Pretty sure them stating they will not pay for damages caused by the use of non recommended fluids is just a round about way of saying your engine warranty is void. IF FCA isn't paying for the repair, that only leaves you which = void

But if the oil you’re using is API certified and meets MS-6395 how is it not recommended when the OM lists numerous grades that are API certified and can (do) meet MS-6395 without a specific warning not to use them because they will damage the engine and “void the warranty”? That’s why I said the owners manual is a complete mess.

 

[BowDown]

But if the oil you’re using is API certified and meets MS-6395 how is it not recommended when the OM lists numerous grades that are API certified and can (do) meet MS-6395 without a specific warning not to use them because they will damage the engine and “void the warranty”? That’s why I said the owners manual is a complete mess.

It may be certified but FCA is calling for a specific weight oil, not just the certification.
Owners manual was written by support engineers and lawyers

 

[GKIII]

That says they won’t cover damage caused by the use of fluids not recommended, not that they will “void your warranty” for simply using them. And since they recommend using API certified oils that meet MS-6395, they would have to prove that the API certified oil that meets their certification damaged the engine.

I find it interesting that under the section on page 369 in my manual explaining the API symbol it states the symbol certifies 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30 and 10W-30, listing all of those viscosities could be confusing to the average consumer since there’s no warning on that page that using anything other than the recommended 5W-20 will damage the engine or using it will “void the warranty”. There is a very clear warning on that page that using chemical flushes could cause damage that is not covered by the warranty.

The oil recommendation section is an absolute mess in the way it’s worded, and should really be made clearer. The OM for my Jeep turbo makes it very clear that you should use synthetic 5W-30 that is API SN+ and meets MS-13340 or equivalent.

You are thinking too hard about this man. If you have an engine failure and they find you using 5W-30, kiss any warranty coverage goodbye. You would have absolutely zero leg to stand on if you tried to challenge it via the MM act. Using the incorrect specification of oil outlined in a user manual would fall under "improper maintenance" 100% of the time when talking warranties.

"Were you using MS-6395 compliant 5W-20 as recommended by the manual?"

"No"

"Case closed"

The manual is very clear (see attached picture), MS-6395 compliant 5W-20 is the oil they want you to use. Use other grades at your own risk if warranty coverage is a major concern for your motor.




Will your engine explode if you deviate from this by using 5W-30? No, 99.99% of the time it will be perfectly fine. However, doing so will give the supporting engineers an easy out if that's the case. How do I know? I do this in the aerospace industry ALL. THE. TIME. Every time a warranty claim comes in for a failure analysis the first thing we look at are maintenance procedures and records. Improper fluid specs used? Auto denial. No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

[Mountain Whiskey]

If you believe the oil film thickness provided by the recommended 5W-20 and the factory oil cooler is adequate for the operating conditions then oil temperature is irrelevant. I guess I don’t see why you’re so concerned with oil temperature if the MOFT is adequate? And the difference in viscosity between 20 and 30 grade oils is not going to show any measurable increase in operating temps. There are plenty of folks using 30 grades in their 5.7 and not seeing any temp differences, some belong to this forum and have reported such.

Wait, I see it now.
They have the sample.


Temperature check.



Analysis



Calculations



Just so insignificant they didn't bother to record it.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

You are thinking too hard about this man. If you have an engine failure and they find you using 5W-30, kiss any warranty coverage goodbye. You would have absolutely zero leg to stand on if you tried to challenge it via the MM act. Using the incorrect specification of oil outlined in a user manual would fall under "improper maintenance" 100% of the time when talking warranties.

"Were you using MS-6395 compliant 5W-20 as recommended by the manual?"

"No"

"Case closed"

The manual is very clear (see attached picture), MS-6395 compliant 5W-20 is the oil they want you to use. Use other grades at your own risk if warranty coverage is a major concern for your motor.

View attachment 102268


Will your engine explode if you deviate from this by using 5W-30? No, 99.99% of the time it will be perfectly fine. However, doing so will give the supporting engineers an easy out if that's the case. How do I know? I do this in the aerospace industry ALL. THE. TIME. Every time a warranty claim comes in for a failure analysis the first thing we look at are maintenance procedures and records. Improper fluid specs used? Auto denial. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I’m not disagreeing with you on what the manual states, clearly they can deny warranty if a non recommended oil is used and it damages the engine. How an oil that is API and MS-6395 certified can damage an engine in a grade other than 5W-20 defies logic. The OM doesn’t say that using any grade other than 5W-20 will automatically “void your warranty” as some believe.

Let’s change one thing in your scenario. Pennzoils GTL based Platinum and Ultra Platinum 0W-20 synthetic oils are much higher quality than the 5W-20 conventional or synthetic blend that these trucks come from the factory with and are obviously API and MS-6395 certified. Likewise, they are much better than any conventional or synthetic blend 5W-20 that a customer will receive at a dealership or quick lube or Firestone or any other oil change facility if they don’t want to pay for synthetic. If the answer to the question you posted is “No, I used Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0W-20.” then per the manual they would have to say “Sorry, but you didn’t use 5W-20 and that non recommended oil damaged your engine so your warranty claim is denied. Case closed.” Do you believe any dealership would be that foolish? Also, do you believe that is the intent of the wording in the OM, to automatically deny a warranty claim if anything other than 5W-20 is used, regardless of the quality and certifications the oil may have?

 

[BowDown]

I’m not disagreeing with you on what the manual states, clearly they can deny warranty if a non recommended oil is used and it damages the engine. How an oil that is API and MS-6395 certified can damage an engine in a grade other than 5W-20 defies logic. The OM doesn’t say that using any grade other than 5W-20 will automatically “void your warranty” as some believe.

Let’s change one thing in your scenario. Pennzoils GTL based Platinum and Ultra Platinum 0W-20 synthetic oils are much higher quality than the 5W-20 conventional or synthetic blend that these trucks come from the factory with and are obviously API and MS-6395 certified. Likewise, they are much better than any conventional or synthetic blend 5W-20 that a customer will receive at a dealership or quick lube or Firestone or any other oil change facility if they don’t want to pay for synthetic. If the answer to the question you posted is “No, I used Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0W-20.” then per the manual they would have to say “Sorry, but you didn’t use 5W-20 and that non recommended oil damaged your engine so your warranty claim is denied. Case closed.” Do you believe any dealership would be that foolish? Also, do you believe that is the intent of the wording in the OM, to automatically deny a warranty claim if anything other than 5W-20 is used, regardless of the quality and certifications the oil may have?

Doubtful that you'd be in for an oil related failure using that oil but say your lifters failed and you went in with 5w30?
DoD, MDS type lifters need a lower weight oil for a reason, most modern lifters do but it's your truck, do as you want but be ready to accept the consequences.

I don't get why people want to alter the vehicle away from what the manufacturer specifies but then want the manufacturer to pay when those alterations lead to failure.
Or why you'd put yourself in that position using an oil that's not going to offer you significantly more protection but potentially more failures

 

[GKIII]

I’m not disagreeing with you on what the manual states, clearly they can deny warranty if a non recommended oil is used and it damages the engine. How an oil that is API and MS-6395 certified can damage an engine in a grade other than 5W-20 defies logic. The OM doesn’t say that using any grade other than 5W-20 will automatically “void your warranty” as some believe.

Let’s change one thing in your scenario. Pennzoils GTL based Platinum and Ultra Platinum 0W-20 synthetic oils are much higher quality than the 5W-20 conventional or synthetic blend that these trucks come from the factory with and are obviously API and MS-6395 certified. Likewise, they are much better than any conventional or synthetic blend 5W-20 that a customer will receive at a dealership or quick lube or Firestone or any other oil change facility if they don’t want to pay for synthetic. If the answer to the question you posted is “No, I used Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0W-20.” then per the manual they would have to say “Sorry, but you didn’t use 5W-20 and that non recommended oil damaged your engine so your warranty claim is denied. Case closed.” Do you believe any dealership would be that foolish? Also, do you believe that is the intent of the wording in the OM, to automatically deny a warranty claim if anything other than 5W-20 is used, regardless of the quality and certifications the oil may have?

The dealers are not the ones approving or denying warranty coverage, it's the manufacturer. The dealers are the ones doing the triage and taking information down for submittal to the manufacturer. The specifications listed in the owners manual are there for corporate financial CYA just as much as they are for any engineering purpose.

If you are found to be using 0W-20 and you have a failed motor, yes you will absolutely lose warranty coverage. How would they find out unless you told them or they took samples? I don't know. I have never had an engine failure with any FCA vehicle but I know for a fact that other manufacturers (*cough* Hyundai *cough*) will take fluid samples if you come in needing major engine/transmission repairs/replacement.

 

[Trooper4]

Dead horse.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

Doubtful that you'd be in for an oil related failure using that oil but say your lifters failed and you went in with 5w30?
DoD, MDS type lifters need a lower weight oil for a reason, most modern lifters do but it's your truck, do as you want but be ready to accept the consequences.

I don't get why people want to alter the vehicle away from what the manufacturer specifies but then want the manufacturer to pay when those alterations lead to failure.
Or why you'd put yourself in that position using an oil that's not going to offer you significantly more protection but potentially more failures

I only use Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 in mine, but I do understand someone attempting to address a specific problem,either real or imagined, by moving away from the one size fits all approach that FCA, and other manufacturers, have went to in order to comply with CAFE regulations. As far as having a lifter failure while using a top tier synthetic 5W-30 how would FCA prove the oil grade caused the failure when there have been countless cases of lifter failure while using the recommended 5W-20? Does that mean the 20 grade was responsible for those failures? Just thinking out loud. Do you also believe FCA would deny warranty coverage if the owner was using a top tier synthetic 0W-20 like Pennzoil Platinum or Platinum Ultra? Would anyone argue that a conventional 5W-20 would provide better protection than a top tier 0W-20 synthetic? Again, just thinking out loud.

If you are found to be using 0W-20 and you have a failed motor, yes you will absolutely lose warranty coverage. How would they find out unless you told them or they took samples? I don't know. I have never had an engine failure with any FCA vehicle but I know for a fact that other manufacturers (*cough* Hyundai *cough*) will take fluid samples if you come in needing major engine/transmission repairs/replacement.

So, the message FCA is sending to their customers is that as long as you use lower tier 5W-20 conventional you're good, but if we catch you using a top tier 0W-20 synthetic made by the company that we have the factory fill and service fill contract with, and is the same operating grade that we recommend but has a lower (better) winter rating then we're getting out the big ole rubber stamp and stamping VOID all over your warranty. Makes perfect sense.

I'm familiar with Hyundai vehicles, my daughter had a 2014 Elantra and now she has a 2019 Santa Fe with the 2.4L GDI engine. What I will give Hyundai credit for is that the owners manual gives the owner the option of using 5W-20, 5W-30 or 10W-30. Hers gets nothing but Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30.

 

[BowDown]

I only use Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 in mine, but I do understand someone attempting to address a specific problem,either real or imagined, by moving away from the one size fits all approach that FCA, and other manufacturers, have went to in order to comply with CAFE regulations. As far as having a lifter failure while using a top tier synthetic 5W-30 how would FCA prove the oil grade caused the failure when there have been countless cases of lifter failure while using the recommended 5W-20? Does that mean the 20 grade was responsible for those failures? Just thinking out loud. Do you also believe FCA would deny warranty coverage if the owner was using a top tier synthetic 0W-20 like Pennzoil Platinum or Platinum Ultra? Would anyone argue that a conventional 5W-20 would provide better protection than a top tier 0W-20 synthetic? Again, just thinking out loud.


So, the message FCA is sending to their customers is that as long as you use lower tier 5W-20 conventional you're good, but if we catch you using a top tier 0W-20 synthetic made by the company that we have the factory fill and service fill contract with, and is the same operating grade that we recommend but has a lower (better) winter rating then we're getting out the big ole rubber stamp and stamping VOID all over your warranty. Makes perfect sense.

I'm familiar with Hyundai vehicles, my daughter had a 2014 Elantra and now she has a 2019 Santa Fe with the 2.4L GDI engine. What I will give Hyundai credit for is that the owners manual gives the owner the option of using 5W-20, 5W-30 or 10W-30. Hers gets nothing but Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30.

I'd like to see those countless lifter failures from 5w20.
In order to make the power these engines are making cam lobes have drastically changed and are far more aggressive. The hydraulic lifter has a narrow window to operate in to compensate for these lobe profiles which has resulted in lifters needing a specific bleed down rate as well as the function of the MDS lifters.

That oil weight change can easily cause a lifter to loose contact with the lobe, bouncing the lifter (called lofting) abd then having the lifter crash back into the lobe damaging the cam itself, the lifter wheel and hammering the valve tip. All the above can happen with simply an oil weight change.

Regardless if why they did it, they did it. You are free to use whatever oil you choose but not to have the manufacturer pay for repair costs because you deviated.

Again, I'd like to see a failed lifter from someone using 5w20 oil. Can it happen, yes. Is it frequently, no and likely do to other issues.

It's not uncommon for a failure to occur then the owner return the vehicle to stock before going in for service and playing dumb so again, I'm not falling for the HEMI lifter failure song. I've built enough engines to recognize lifter failure and owner caused failure; ie, a lifter can be disassemble and wear viewed

 

[GKIII]

I only use Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 in mine, but I do understand someone attempting to address a specific problem,either real or imagined, by moving away from the one size fits all approach that FCA, and other manufacturers, have went to in order to comply with CAFE regulations. As far as having a lifter failure while using a top tier synthetic 5W-30 how would FCA prove the oil grade caused the failure when there have been countless cases of lifter failure while using the recommended 5W-20? Does that mean the 20 grade was responsible for those failures? Just thinking out loud. Do you also believe FCA would deny warranty coverage if the owner was using a top tier synthetic 0W-20 like Pennzoil Platinum or Platinum Ultra? Would anyone argue that a conventional 5W-20 would provide better protection than a top tier 0W-20 synthetic? Again, just thinking out loud.


So, the message FCA is sending to their customers is that as long as you use lower tier 5W-20 conventional you're good, but if we catch you using a top tier 0W-20 synthetic made by the company that we have the factory fill and service fill contract with, and is the same operating grade that we recommend but has a lower (better) winter rating then we're getting out the big ole rubber stamp and stamping VOID all over your warranty. Makes perfect sense.

I'm familiar with Hyundai vehicles, my daughter had a 2014 Elantra and now she has a 2019 Santa Fe with the 2.4L GDI engine. What I will give Hyundai credit for is that the owners manual gives the owner the option of using 5W-20, 5W-30 or 10W-30. Hers gets nothing but Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30.

Yea, it does. I am not defending them, I am just pointing out the reality of the situation. I personally would like to see other grades approved for certain use cases, because as you've said other manufacturers do this.

FWIW if I lived in Alaska I'd probably use 0W-20 in the winter because I'm not an idiot...only being fully aware it's likely my *** if my motor ****s the bed for whatever reason.

 

[cj7]

The manual states there are RECOMMNDED (not required) oil weights, that meet REQUIRED standards. So, as long as the oil used says it meets or exceeds the required standard, you are fine, no matter what weight.

 

[BowDown]

The manual states there are RECOMMNDED (not required) oil weights, that meet REQUIRED standards. So, as long as the oil used says it meets or exceeds the required standard, you are fine, no matter what weight.

Also says

 

[GKIII]

The manual states there are RECOMMNDED (not required) oil weights, that meet REQUIRED standards. So, as long as the oil used says it meets or exceeds the required standard, you are fine, no matter what weight.

Next time you have any sort of engine problem go ahead and tell them you are using a non-recommended oil and see what they come back with as far as warranty coverage. The warranty booklet they give you is very clear about this.

The MM act prevents them from requiring you to purchase their own brand of fluids (unless an exception is applied for and approved), but they are free to require aftermarket fluids to meet their own specifications.

 

[cj7]

Next time you have any sort of engine problem go ahead and tell them you are using a non-recommended oil and see what they come back with as far as warranty coverage. The warranty booklet they give you is very clear about this.

The MM act prevents them from requiring you to purchase their own brand of fluids (unless an exception is applied for and approved), but they are free to require aftermarket fluids to meet their own specifications.

With all due respect, if they list various grades as being API and MS-xxxx certified, aNd you use one of those, even if they test used oil, what damage can they claim was CAUSED BY using 0w-20, 5w-30, etc?

Also remember that its very difficult to prove a used oil started out as 0w-20 or 5w-30 vs 5w-20 - that’s why the labs ASK YOU what oil was tested. Hyundai and others take samples not to prove u used a different grade, but to test if you hadn’t changed the oil in forever...

Yes, Magnuson Moss prohibits tie-in sales, but it also makes it easier to force the manufacturer to honor the warranty or prove the failure was caused by the “aftermarket“ (aka not recommended) part. While it would be a PITA, any lawyer will tell you they have little to stand on when they “recommeNd” parts, esp. when they list alternatives (aka other weights) that meet the standards they note are the threshold.

I think some of us are a bit too worried, but each to his own....

 

[GKIII]

With all due respect, if they list various grades as being API and MS-xxxx certified, aNd you use one of those, even if they test used oil, what damage can they claim was CAUSED BY using 0w-20, 5w-30, etc?

Also remember that its very difficult to prove a used oil started out as 0w-20 or 5w-30 vs 5w-20 - that’s why the labs ASK YOU what oil was tested. Hyundai and others take samples not to prove u used a different grade, but to test if you hadn’t changed the oil in forever...

Yes, Magnuson Moss prohibits tie-in sales, but it also makes it easier to force the manufacturer to honor the warranty or prove the failure was caused by the “aftermarket“ (aka not recommended) part. While it would be a PITA, any lawyer will tell you they have little to stand on when they “recommeNd” parts, esp. when they list alternatives (aka other weights) that meet the standards they note are the threshold.

I think some of us are a bit too worried, but each to his own....

Usage of an oil not recommended in the manual constitutes improper maintenance in the eyes the manufacturer, which will void your warranty 10/10 times if the manufacturer learns about it. Oil labs will ask the grade (and brand) of oil to compare against a baseline, they can tell if you've lied about the grade of oil they are evaluating though. You can sue under MM all you want, once the fact finding phase determines you used an oil that either doesn't meet spec or is a different grade you will lose. All the OEM has to do is state they didn't (or no longer) certify an oil for use in that engine.

As I've alluded to before, it's your truck/money so if you want to use a different oil grade then go for it. Just don't complain if that one day bites you in the *** with a denied warranty claim.

 

[cj7]

Usage of an oil not recommended in the manual constitutes improper maintenance in the eyes the manufacturer, which will void your warranty 10/10 times if the manufacturer learns about it. Oil labs will ask the grade (and brand) of oil to compare against a baseline, they can tell if you've lied about the grade of oil they are evaluating though. You can sue under MM all you want, once the fact finding phase determines you used an oil that either doesn't meet spec or is a different grade you will lose. All the OEM has to do is state they didn't (or no longer) certify an oil for use in that engine.

As I've alluded to before, it's your truck/money so if you want to use a different oil grade then go for it. Just don't complain if that one day bites you in the *** with a denied warranty claim.

I appreciate the info, but not the definitives. 10/10 and “you will lose” is exaggerated opinion masquerading as fact. Find us a case where a different viscosity oil that met the OEM standard was the proven cause of a failure and court-approved rationale for warranty denial. We can wait.

 

[BowDown]

I appreciate the info, but not the definitives. 10/10 and “you will lose” is exaggerated opinion masquerading as fact. Find us a case where a different viscosity oil that met the OEM standard was the proven cause of a failure and court-approved rationale for warranty denial. We can wait.

You know there's no way for him to refute your claim without having access to all manufacturers warranty records. Tha same impetus could be placed on you to prove the inverse.

If the manufacturer doesn't want to warranty the repair, this is an easy out for them.
I really don't even understand this argument as it is highly unlikely anyone is pushing synthetic 5w20 anywhere near its limits.
You could TT this engine and still use the same oil with no issues

 

[GKIII]

I appreciate the info, but not the definitives. 10/10 and “you will lose” is exaggerated opinion masquerading as fact. Find us a case where a different viscosity oil that met the OEM standard was the proven cause of a failure and court-approved rationale for warranty denial. We can wait.

You're the one making the claim that using fluid not meeting a manufacturer's specifications for oil grade (and manufacturer specific specs) will not result in a void warranty should they find out. That's on you to prove. If you can find case law proving your claims, by all means. My guess is you won't, since any lawyer worth their salt will not take cases they know they can't win.

This is why lawyers specializing in warranty and/or lemon law claims will require maintenance documentation in any MM act complaints before they decide to take your case. I have personal experience with this fighting against Hyundai.

 

[BowDown]

FYI, this guy was using 5w30.