Engine rebuild for future whipple?

[theblet]

If you get on it constantly, I would think you will have cooling issue, forced induction or not.

 

[Mountain Whiskey]

Silly question, does he pay or demand you to say who does your tuning?
He told me to remove my posts on this forum detailing my experience (good and bad) last week when I asked to get my TCM tune updated as it no longer worked (offered to pay as there might be some work needed to do for the updated tune). He outright refused to do any work for me anymore and demanded some "answers" and a "response on that post". he will definitely be getting a response but I bet not what he is looking for with that attitude.

Diablosport CMR tuners

Anyone know who does good tunes that actually responds to people? I tried Hemifever but they either aren't in business anymore or are too busy to respond to inquires (which would be a problem if a tune was causing a problem). I'm told there's someone named "Jay Greene" but I don't really use...

5thgenrams.com

I have not dealt with Jay. I currently have a tune from Hemifever in my SRT. Sean was great to deal with. He was very responsive to my questions and the tune is fine. Going to HHP for a cam soon so they will dyno tune over it though.

 

[BowDown]

OP, reading Darksteels thread and both his and Mountain Whiskey has reminded me of one other thing, make sure the tuner is local to you. If they aren't then you can expect problems. Its been my experience, again, with the LS market, that unless you are using a big time shop which also mean s big $$$$$.

A lot of people may think a supercharger install that cost $15k is a big build, its not and unfortunately, when its not, many shops treat you as though its not. For most good shops, a big build where you're actually treated differently (correct) is $60-100+K. I know a shop near me thats backlogged with $100 jobs
These are probably the best LS or Tuner shops in the country but you will wait to get in and take out a mortgage to use them.
Cordes Performance in AZ
LME/LMR in Houston TX
Nth Moto in Minnesota
Dallas Performance
Katech in Detroit
Underground Racing* Lambo/Audi only

Baileys Performance is a big HEMI shop but they fall into the same category as the others as far as quality and treatment go. Another bolt on shop IMO.
If I ever did anything to this truck, it would be to unlock the PCM and use HP tuners to tune, that what I use on my Z06 and the best way to understand what you're doing is to understand the whys and how's because ultimately, the shop you chose is going to f up and leave you hold the sack of broken parts and a repair bill.

All the above is why I suggested buying the TRX. By the time you've bought the SC, had it installed and tuned, fixed all the crap that broke, twice before you finally spent the money and did it right, you'll have more than exceeded the cost difference of the TRX and have none of its increased value

 

[Mopar_maxi]

Silly question, does he pay or demand you to say who does your tuning?
He told me to remove my posts on this forum detailing my experience (good and bad) last week when I asked to get my TCM tune updated as it no longer worked (offered to pay as there might be some work needed to do for the updated tune). He outright refused to do any work for me anymore and demanded some "answers" and a "response on that post". he will definitely be getting a response but I bet not what he is looking for with that attitude.

Diablosport CMR tuners

Anyone know who does good tunes that actually responds to people? I tried Hemifever but they either aren't in business anymore or are too busy to respond to inquires (which would be a problem if a tune was causing a problem). I'm told there's someone named "Jay Greene" but I don't really use...

5thgenrams.com

I’ve used Jay for about 7 years now with absolutely zero problems or complaints. I am not paid or affiliated with Jays business at all. He’s a friend and has always treated me very well. My truck runs amazing. I’ve dealt with other tuners before switching to Jay and had terrible experiences. Jay has always done me right and I will stay with him as long as I own a hemi.

As far as the TCM issues, that’s a diablo issue. I had problems tuning my TCM when I tuned my truck 3 years ago and diablo had to send me updates in order to even read/write my TCM. Jays knowledge and skill with these trucks is second to none in my opinion.

I’m sorry you haven’t had a great experience but there’s technology issues and 3 sides to every story just like anything else.

 

[Darksteel165]

I’ve used Jay for about 7 years now with absolutely zero problems or complaints. I am not paid or affiliated with Jays business at all. He’s a friend and has always treated me very well. My truck runs amazing. I’ve dealt with other tuners before switching to Jay and had terrible experiences. Jay has always done me right and I will stay with him as long as I own a hemi.

As far as the TCM issues, that’s a diablo issue. I had problems tuning my TCM when I tuned my truck 3 years ago and diablo had to send me updates in order to even read/write my TCM. Jays knowledge and skill with these trucks is second to none in my opinion.

I’m sorry you haven’t had a great experience but there’s technology issues and 3 sides to every story just like anything else.

Well as long as he treats you right that's good. Forcing people to delete reviews and lie on his behalf are not cool and deserves to love a ton of customer base if that's how he's going to work.

I looked around after this last thing and he's notorious for being rude, lying, not changing any settings at all from stock, and getting caught copy and pasting other people's tunes instead of auctally changing parameters for your truck, was actually nice to see other people saying the same exact things I have been feeling while dealing with him.

You are definitely right about the 3 stories, I never realized he auctally wasn't changing crap on my tunes or at least couldn't prove it, but I see others have sent his "cumston tunes" to be checked out and some had a single field changed from a 0 to a 1 then packed as custom and others were done incorrectly (which tons of mine were at 1 point I couldn't even start my truck).

I have not dealt with Jay. I currently have a tune from Hemifever in my SRT. Sean was great to deal with. He was very responsive to my questions and the tune is fine. Going to HHP for a cam soon so they will dyno tune over it though.

I think I'm either going to them or the Diablotoona guy, he seemed legit also.
I wasn't planning on spending hundreds to get my TCM tune back on, but there's no point in keeping the ECM tune after what I've been feeling and discovered, it's basicly just seems like a canned tune if even (I went back to stock for a week and couldn't notice a difference).

I just checked again and I can't find any local places to do tuning. I found one but they say they outsource all of the tuning to "e-tuners" people, not sure why people would bother going to them if they aren't the ones doing the actual tune.

That said you should never use a "mail order tune" for a heavily modified vehicle like what OP will be doing. It will never be right no matter who does it unless they are in person because there are way more variable to deal with.

 

[MilehighRam]

This thread really did get me to start considering a TRX. I'm on a few call back lists when the 2024s open for order. I'm not a gear head and find I do less and less work on my trucks as I've gotten older; just not as much fun as it used to be (not to mention technology in these things!).

 

[Darksteel165]

This thread really did get me to start considering a TRX. I'm on a few call back lists when the 2024s open for order. I'm not a gear head and find I do less and less work on my trucks as I've gotten older; just not as much fun as it used to be (not to mention technology in these things!).

When people make threads like this we always try to upsell people.
It's a thing

 

[Mountain Whiskey]

Well as long as he treats you right that's good. Forcing people to delete reviews and lie on his behalf are not cool and deserves to love a ton of customer base if that's how he's going to work.

I looked around after this last thing and he's notorious for being rude, lying, not changing any settings at all from stock, and getting caught copy and pasting other people's tunes instead of auctally changing parameters for your truck, was actually nice to see other people saying the same exact things I have been feeling while dealing with him.

You are definitely right about the 3 stories, I never realized he auctally wasn't changing crap on my tunes or at least couldn't prove it, but I see others have sent his "cumston tunes" to be checked out and some had a single field changed from a 0 to a 1 then packed as custom and others were done incorrectly (which tons of mine were at 1 point I couldn't even start my truck).


I think I'm either going to them or the Diablotoona guy, he seemed legit also.
I wasn't planning on spending hundreds to get my TCM tune back on, but there's no point in keeping the ECM tune after what I've been feeling and discovered, it's basicly just seems like a canned tune if even (I went back to stock for a week and couldn't notice a difference).

I just checked again and I can't find any local places to do tuning. I found one but they say they outsource all of the tuning to "e-tuners" people, not sure why people would bother going to them if they aren't the ones doing the actual tune.

That said you should never use a "mail order tune" for a heavily modified vehicle like what OP will be doing. It will never be right no matter who does it unless they are in person because there are way more variable to deal with.

I have heard great things about Diablotoona also. I believe he used to work for Diablo and had a hand in developing thier format. I could be wrong though.

This thread really did get me to start considering a TRX. I'm on a few call back lists when the 2024s open for order. I'm not a gear head and find I do less and less work on my trucks as I've gotten older; just not as much fun as it used to be (not to mention technology in these things!).

Yea, in the end, it's like the Guns and Roses song Mr. Brownstone.

I used to do a little but a little wouldn't do
So the little got more and more
I just keep tryin' to get a little better
Said, a little better than before.

You get some power and then you get used to it. Boosted, 6 lbs becomes 8 lbs. Then more pullies change and you have 12. Then suddenly a connecting rod is sticking out of that big hole in the side of your block because you pushed it without forged internals.

Build it right and yes, it will be dependable. But it is not bolt on kit level. 6 lbs for the start is. But you will Jones for more. Took me about a week to get used to the 392 in my 300 then a tune was added, and now I am putting a cam in it. I know in a year or so, it's coming out to build the bottom in prep for more. I know myself. Oh well, who needs to retire anyway?

 

[BowDown]

I have heard great things about Diablotoona also. I believe he used to work for Diablo and had a hand in developing thier format. I could be wrong though.


Yea, in the end, it's like the Guns and Roses song Mr. Brownstone.

I used to do a little but a little wouldn't do
So the little got more and more
I just keep tryin' to get a little better
Said, a little better than before.

You get some power and then you get used to it. Boosted, 6 lbs becomes 8 lbs. Then more pullies change and you have 12. Then suddenly a connecting rod is sticking out of that big hole in the side of your block because you pushed it without forged internals.

Build it right and yes, it will be dependable. But it is not bolt on kit level. 6 lbs for the start is. But you will Jones for more. Took me about a week to get used to the 392 in my 300 then a tune was added, and now I am putting a cam in it. I know in a year or so, it's coming out to build the bottom in prep for more. I know myself. Oh well, who needs to retire anyway?

Yep Lol. Ask me how I know

 

[MilehighRam]

I have heard great things about Diablotoona also. I believe he used to work for Diablo and had a hand in developing thier format. I could be wrong though.


Yea, in the end, it's like the Guns and Roses song Mr. Brownstone.

I used to do a little but a little wouldn't do
So the little got more and more
I just keep tryin' to get a little better
Said, a little better than before.

You get some power and then you get used to it. Boosted, 6 lbs becomes 8 lbs. Then more pullies change and you have 12. Then suddenly a connecting rod is sticking out of that big hole in the side of your block because you pushed it without forged internals.

Build it right and yes, it will be dependable. But it is not bolt on kit level. 6 lbs for the start is. But you will Jones for more. Took me about a week to get used to the 392 in my 300 then a tune was added, and now I am putting a cam in it. I know in a year or so, it's coming out to build the bottom in prep for more. I know myself. Oh well, who needs to retire anyway?

Are these trucks built to handle 6 lbs of boost as a daily driver? I'd love to start at a solid 6lbs and when the bug bite, know that "going to 8, 10, 12lbs would require forged internals, a beefy transmission, etc".

 

[BowDown]

Are these trucks built to handle 6 lbs of boost as a daily driver? I'd love to start at a solid 6lbs and when the bug bite, know that "going to 8, 10, 12lbs would require forged internals, a beefy transmission, etc".

These trucks are built to be N/A, no boost.
The question is will they handle 6lbs of boost with no issues as a daily.

The other problem is these engines get air flow data via speed density, not mass air flow so tunes are critical. Speed density doesn't measure airflow like mass air. It calculates it from the IAT temps and MAP data then "calculates" the air density. MAF actually measure air flow so the ECU knows exactly how much air is coming through the TB and rapid changes in the air can be compensated for. MAF tunes make for a more reliable tune which IMO, is the achilles heel of the FCA and Ford engines. This is absolutely critical on boosted engines

 

[MilehighRam]

These trucks are built to be N/A, no boost.
The question is will they handle 6lbs of boost with no issues as a daily.

The other problem is these engines get MAP data via speed density, not mass air flow so tunes are critical. Speed density doesn't measure airflow like mass air. It calculates it from the IAT temps and MAP data then "calculates" the air density. MAF actually measure air flow so the ECU knows exactly how much air is coming through the TB. MMAF tunes make for a more reliable tune which IMO, is the achilles heel of the FCA and Ford engines. This is absolutely critical on boosted engines

I dont understand all the acronyms (yet) but i do understand that a tune is critical. If I went the SC route, I would 100% have a shop thats familiar with Rams do the install and tune. Such a shop is yet to be found.

 

[BowDown]

I dont understand all the acronyms (yet) but i do understand that a tune is critical. If I went the SC route, I would 100% have a shop thats familiar with Rams do the install and tune. Such a shop is yet to be found.

Mass air flow MAF
Manifold absolute pressure MAP
Intake air temperature IAT
Throttle body TB

A mis-tune on any of the 1st three can turn your engine into junk.
The biggest take away is that this is a slippery slope, the quest for 100hp can turn into 150hp and with how easy it is with boost, 200 additional hp. Each increase requires better parts for instance, I'd be surprised if the fuel system in a stock 5.7 can keep up with a 150 hp increase. What are the injector duty cycles at that point, fuel pressure are you going to need to move to a return fuel system, upgrade the pump to a TRX/Hellcat pump or go Gucci and get a real system like a fore double or triple?
A fore double starts at $2300 for a TRX, if you go over 6PSI of boost, you're gonna need to buy a fuel system. Fueling is absolutely critical on boosted applications. Granted, a fore is likely over kill for what you want to do but you can see how easily you can end up with a thin wallet.

I just bought ID 1000's injectors for my car, that was $1100 alone, I still need to decide if Im going to chase a few more HP and run E85 which will require more fuel pump and I already have a boost a pump

TRX L2 Fuel System (triple pump)

Fore Innovations manufactures high performance fuel systems for the motorsport industry offering both dual and triple pump fuel systems that are compatible with gasoline, race gas, and E85. Available with Single and Dual staged fuel pressure regulation for use with low and high boost...

www.foreinnovations.com

 

[BowDown]

I can tell you this from experience, I'm on my 2nd $16K engine, I have 10K in the trans and diff, $2k in a McLeod RXT easily another $10k in supporting parts like $900 lifters and I could go on. Point is this started with wanting 100 more HP. I have now almost doubled the stock HP that the car came with and nothing unmodified lasted behind that power. I used to be in the "you spent how much on that? I can gap you with $1500 in mods on a 10k car and still not have spent half what you did" crowd.

F all that, now I understand and appreciate the value of factory engineered high horsepower that you can live with everyday and not drive next to bridge embankments or concrete barriers/ Jersey Barriers wondering what that new sound is or if its always been there. I see the value in a TRX/Redeye/C8Z06 or any other high horsepower factory car vs building something that if when it breaks, you're on the hook for. I love the mindset of all I have to do is put fuel in it and change the oil, no worries.

Had a friend sell his LMR (Late Model Racecraft) heavily modded C8 corvette, made 1100 whp with the original intent being a supercharger and only 120 more HP. He sold that car for a C7 ZR1 that makes almost 1/2 the power his old car made and he's 100 times happier

Do what you want but no way I'd mod this truck with a SC and deal with all the BS when I could just buy a TRX. I'm not into the 4x4 off road thing, if FCA introduced a street version of the TRX, like the old SRT/10 Rams, I'd kick their door down and shove my money in their pockets for one

 

[Mountain Whiskey]

Are these trucks built to handle 6 lbs of boost as a daily driver? I'd love to start at a solid 6lbs and when the bug bite, know that "going to 8, 10, 12lbs would require forged internals, a beefy transmission, etc".

@BowDown gave a lot of good info as did @HSKR R/T .

My opinion, if you want a DD (daily driver) that is boosted, go with Whipple. They do make a kit. It says bolt on but you bet there will be some tweaking involved so be prepared. The twin screw offers power right from the start. A vortex style is more top end power. Much like a turbo is, until you wind it up, there is a lag. While this twin screw 3.0 kit comes with intercooler and all, don't go this route if you sit in bumper to bumper traffic, you will overheat. Compressing air makes heat.

Long tunes can be troublesome sometimes but do offer the best exhaust flow. An alternative is to get stock manifolds from a 6.4l Challenger/Charger/300. These will easily bolt up and are basically shorty headers from the factory.

Oh, one more caveat, if you have an etorque, try again. Whipple says it is not compatible, I don't know about Magnuson, Edlebrock or others. I can't imagine one would work with the start/stop feature nor could I see it playing well with the electric motor start. I could be wrong.

Edit: @BowDown posted above as i was writing. He is right. You probably wont build what you can just buy stock without the hassles.

 

[theblet]

If your boost is too high, you will also need a lower compression ratio, and therefore, new heads.

 

[HSKR R/T]

These trucks are built to be N/A, no boost.
The question is will they handle 6lbs of boost with no issues as a daily.

The other problem is these engines get air flow data via speed density, not mass air flow so tunes are critical. Speed density doesn't measure airflow like mass air. It calculates it from the IAT temps and MAP data then "calculates" the air density. MAF actually measure air flow so the ECU knows exactly how much air is coming through the TB and rapid changes in the air can be compensated for. MAF tunes make for a more reliable tune which IMO, is the achilles heel of the FCA and Ford engines. This is absolutely critical on boosted engines

Pretty much all aftermarket stand alone fuel/engine management systems use speed density. Its actually easier to tune. With MAF, you get limited by the MAF sensor itself and how much it can actually flow. And just like most se skrs, aftermarket MAF sensors are hit or miss a d no two read the same.

 

[HSKR R/T]

Mass air flow MAF
Manifold absolute pressure MAP
Intake air temperature IAT
Throttle body TB

A mis-tune on any of the 1st three can turn your engine into junk.
The biggest take away is that this is a slippery slope, the quest for 100hp can turn into 150hp and with how easy it is with boost, 200 additional hp. Each increase requires better parts for instance, I'd be surprised if the fuel system in a stock 5.7 can keep up with a 150 hp increase. What are the injector duty cycles at that point, fuel pressure are you going to need to move to a return fuel system, upgrade the pump to a TRX/Hellcat pump or go Gucci and get a real system like a fore double or triple?
A fore double starts at $2300 for a TRX, if you go over 6PSI of boost, you're gonna need to buy a fuel system. Fueling is absolutely critical on boosted applications. Granted, a fore is likely over kill for what you want to do but you can see how easily you can end up with a thin wallet.

I just bought ID 1000's injectors for my car, that was $1100 alone, I still need to decide if Im going to chase a few more HP and run E85 which will require more fuel pump and I already have a boost a pump

TRX L2 Fuel System (triple pump)

Fore Innovations manufactures high performance fuel systems for the motorsport industry offering both dual and triple pump fuel systems that are compatible with gasoline, race gas, and E85. Available with Single and Dual staged fuel pressure regulation for use with low and high boost...

www.foreinnovations.com

You don't need a whole new fuel system, justarger injectors and a proper tune. As long as the fuel pump can keep up with demand. At some point you will need to uograde the fuel pump, but you can do just the pump for a fraction the cost of a complete fuel system. You'd have to be north of 1000hp before you need to think About a complete fuel system replacement. I know guys with Scat Pack Challengers pushing 1000hp with just larger injectors, a higher volume fuel pump, and tune, plus the other supporting mods. But stock fuel lines, and fuel rails. And the fuel pump was just a replacement in tank pump

 

[BowDown]

Pretty much all aftermarket stand alone fuel/engine management systems use speed density. Its actually easier to tune. With MAF, you get limited by the MAF sensor itself and how much it can actually flow. And just like most se skrs, aftermarket MAF sensors are hit or miss a d no two read the same.

Holley dominator efi can use either and the preferred is Alpha N.
Motec uses mass air.
The only reason your limited to mass air is because you're using a older smaller mass air flow meter. There's many aftermarket large mass air flow meters with the accompanying scaler needed to tell the computer how much air is flowing. LPE makes a 4" cartridge model

 

[BowDown]

You don't need a whole new fuel system, justarger injectors and a proper tune. As long as the fuel pump can keep up with demand. At some point you will need to uograde the fuel pump, but you can do just the pump for a fraction the cost of a complete fuel system. You'd have to be north of 1000hp before you need to think About a complete fuel system replacement. I know guys with Scat Pack Challengers pushing 1000hp with just larger injectors, a higher volume fuel pump, and tune, plus the other supporting mods. But stock fuel lines, and fuel rails. And the fuel pump was just a replacement in tank pump

Believe I said that.
BTW, to me, a new pump and new injectors is a new fuel system, you're not replacing the lines unless you go to a return style system.
A walbro is a fraction of the cost. A good system like a fire double or triple is far more reliable and better performing. In not opening the tank to swap in a damn Walbro or a DeatschWerks and I'm not running a fuel system that's operating at 85-90%.

You can do it right once or you can make it work 3 or 4 times then do it right