Is the 2025 "Refresh" going to be enough to boost sales?

[RedFred]

Ram sales are kind of in a slump for 2023. Not horrible, but down year to date while everyone else has been experiencing a decent uptick in sales thus far for 2023. And this is even more mind boggling when you consider that Ram, almost out of necessity to keep market share, needs to heavily discount their trucks to keep them moving off lots, especially when compare rebates and discounts of its main competitors Ford and GM.

So what is Ram doing wrong? And are they taking the right steps with the 2025 Refresh to bring more buyers to the brand? And did the Refresh go far enough in your opinion to excite buyers?

I for one, am going to miss the V8 hemi option that will no longer be available.

 

[SD Rebel]

I think they simply had the oldest truck on the lot. I mean the F150 was not only redesigned within the DT lifespan so far, but already getting a refresh. The Silverado got an early refresh in 2022/23 to fix their interior and front end/fenders.

It shows RAM got it right for the 2019 model year, however with next to zero upgrades along the way, it's going to hurt enthusiasm and sales. Especially hurts them in that they arguably have the most limited driveline choices when it comes to drivetrain options.

The 2025 in terms of exterior refresh is nearly nothing, honestly it is going to be hard for most people to notice a difference. The interior is a decent upgrade where it counts, the drivetrain is a big deal in losing the long running (but old) Hemi 5.7L with a TTI6.

I'm not sure if that's the best idea, for a brand that built itself on the Hemi V8. Even Ford, which is the most progressive with smaller turbocharged six cylinder engines still will have a V8 option in the future. GM is investing heavily in their next gen V8s to keep the emissions viable while having the option of a 4 cylinder turbo in the full size truck line. The only option now for RAM is a I6TT and a 3.6L V6 in their 1500 gasoline trucks.

Not sure yet how it's going to go. But historically, Ford and GM were the volume sellers while RAM was the "value" proposition. The cheaper alternative, where you got a better deal than the other two. That's changed when the DT came around, became the front runner for interior, refinement and tech. Now the other two are doing the same, RAM may have to become the value proposition again to keep up with sales.

 

[PM-Performance]

The down tick in sales is due to financing and price of vehicles.
Things are getting too unaffordable/unjustifiably priced and people like myself are just not buying at the rate they were anymore to prove a point.

If prices and financing got back to normal, I’d buy a new truck today. There is no benefit to me doing so though. I’ll bet there are many in this same mindset

 

[SD Rebel]

The down tick in sales is due to financing and price of vehicles.
Things are getting too unaffordable/unjustifiably priced and people like myself are just not buying at the rate they were anymore to prove a point.

If prices and financing got back to normal, I’d buy a new truck today. There is no benefit to me doing so though. I’ll bet there are many in this same mindset

But this is in relation to Ford and GM, where their sales is better. He is asking why RAM is down a bit more in relation to them. Everyone is dealing with high prices and high interest.

 

[RedFred]

But this is in relation to Ford and GM, where their sales is better. He is asking why RAM is down a bit more in relation to them. Everyone is dealing with high prices and high interest.

That's my point. In year to date sales for 2023, not only do Ford and GM sell more pickup trucks than Ram overall, they are also experiencing increases in sales over 2022 numbers while Rams sales have decreased. So their lead over Ram has only increased.

 

[RedFred]

I think they simply had the oldest truck on the lot. I mean the F150 was not only redesigned within the DT lifespan so far, but already getting a refresh. The Silverado got an early refresh in 2022/23 to fix their interior and front end/fenders.

It shows RAM got it right for the 2019 model year, however with next to zero upgrades along the way, it's going to hurt enthusiasm and sales. Especially hurts them in that they arguably have the most limited driveline choices when it comes to drivetrain options.

The 2025 in terms of exterior refresh is nearly nothing, honestly it is going to be hard for most people to notice a difference. The interior is a decent upgrade where it counts, the drivetrain is a big deal in losing the long running (but old) Hemi 5.7L with a TTI6.

I'm not sure if that's the best idea, for a brand that built itself on the Hemi V8. Even Ford, which is the most progressive with smaller turbocharged six cylinder engines still will have a V8 option in the future. GM is investing heavily in their next gen V8s to keep the emissions viable while having the option of a 4 cylinder turbo in the full size truck line. The only option now for RAM is a I6TT and a 3.6L V6 in their 1500 gasoline trucks.

Not sure yet how it's going to go. But historically, Ford and GM were the volume sellers while RAM was the "value" proposition. The cheaper alternative, where you got a better deal than the other two. That's changed when the DT came around, became the front runner for interior, refinement and tech. Now the other two are doing the same, RAM may have to become the value proposition again to keep up with sales.

I am also not sure if the new TT inline 6 is the answer. There is something about the saying "tried and true" that applies to the hemi V8. Especially for a company that has a reputation of not being the most reliable, whether it's true or not, I think a lot of new buyers are going to be skeptical of the new motor.

 

[Eighty]

I am also not sure if the new TT inline 6 is the answer. There is something about the saying "tried and true" that applies to the hemi V8. Especially for a company that has a reputation of not being the most reliable, whether it's true or not, I think a lot of new buyers are going to be skeptical of the new motor.

Stellantis is bleeding money on fines, due to not being remotely close to the required CAFE standards. They really have no choice but to get rid of the old gas guzzlers (5.7L V8, 6.2L SRT) in favor of more fuel-efficient engines.
Once they get the Ramcharger in production, there's talk about releasing a new V8 motor. But that can't really happen until they get the fleet average in line with regulations.

 

[SD Rebel]

I am also not sure if the new TT inline 6 is the answer. There is something about the saying "tried and true" that applies to the hemi V8. Especially for a company that has a reputation of not being the most reliable, whether it's true or not, I think a lot of new buyers are going to be skeptical of the new motor.

I agree, I think what's hurting Ram is not the reliability, anecdotally my 2019 has had zero issues, but their dealership network when it comes to handling even small problems can be nightmare.

What is the wait period for a exhaust manifold on this old engine? So I can imagine what this engine is going to be like first few years.

 

[PM-Performance]

But this is in relation to Ford and GM, where their sales is better. He is asking why RAM is down a bit more in relation to them. Everyone is dealing with high prices and high interest.

Because Ram’s prices jumped more relatively to the others.
Ram was the cheaper option and that is not entirely the case anymore.
I saw on a video on YouTube that their prices increased something like %37 in the last few years.
That will certainly do it

 

[BowDown]

I agree, I think what's hurting Ram is not the reliability, anecdotally my 2019 has had zero issues, but their dealership network when it comes to handling even small problems can be nightmare.

What is the wait period for a exhaust manifold on this old engine? So I can imagine what this engine is going to be like first few years.

Everyone has service. I have a jaguar XF, took it in for an oil change, 3 hours later: hey, were almost done with our oil change, do you want us to wash the car? I look out the service window and you can barely see across the lot, "you know its raining right?"

Everyone has parts shortages right now so I don't know that parts is that big a deal, Ram/Dodge service is beyond horrible with the exception of a few shops but I don't know that many people buy their vehicles with service after the sale in mind

 

[SD Rebel]

Stellantis is bleeding money on fines, due to not being remotely close to the required CAFE standards. They really have no choice but to get rid of the old gas guzzlers (5.7L V8, 6.2L SRT) in favor of more fuel-efficient engines.
Once they get the Ramcharger in production, there's talk about releasing a new V8 motor. But that can't really happen until they get the fleet average in line with regulations.

True, but I think it's more the fines on emissions as opposed to CAFE, once CDJR was purchased, their CAFE numbers were boosted to the point they didn't need Tesla carbon credits last year.

However, you are right they are or will be paying heavy penalties to the Feds with the current Hemi. The emissions is double what the Hurricane produces.

 

[SD Rebel]

Because Ram’s prices jumped more relatively to the others.
Ram was the cheaper option and that is not entirely the case anymore.
I saw on a video on YouTube that their prices increased something like %37 in the last few years.
That will certainly do it

I priced shopped recently, they are in line spec for spec, maybe they were cheaper and caught up?

 

[BowDown]

Because Ram’s prices jumped more relatively to the others.
Ram was the cheaper option and that is not entirely the case anymore.
I saw on a video on YouTube that their prices increased something like %37 in the last few years.
That will certainly do it

Exactly what I was going to say, Ram was value prior to the DT but reliability was good with the DS and quality improved. With the DT, quality far surpassed Ford GM and Toyota and I said it back in 2020, all those truck of the year and luxury vehicle of the year awards were going to push prices up and they did. I tried to use a GMC Denali as a negotiation tool when buying my 2020 in July of 20. Dealer simply said, "I have a better truck than the denali" and did not budge on his price.

3 years later and Ram is still at the top of the game so yeah, not surprised that prices are where they are

 

[BowDown]

I priced shopped recently, they are in line spec for spec, maybe they were cheaper and caught up?

That's what he's saying, Ram is in line or slightly above Ford, GM and Toyota. Previously Ram was the cheapest of the trucks by a large margin

 

[RedFred]

When I mentioned reliability, it's more so the perception of reliability that's a concern, rather than actual reliability. Like it not, many don't have a good perception of the Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, Ram brands in general. And the manifold issue not ever getting resolved, didn't help with many first time Ram owners. I know at least one guy that won't even look at Ram for his next truck because of his multiple manifold repairs.

 

[habu987]

I think the sales slump is due to a confluence of factors:

1. Oldest truck on the lot--Ford and GM both came out with their current gen trucks after Ram did in 2018, yet both have already had a MCR while Ram has stayed steady with just minor YoY updates
2. Smallest and least efficient engine lineup--no counterpart to Ford's hybrid or GM's diesel
3. Escalating prices in light of the lack of updates--Ford and GM have hiked prices, too, so Ram isn't alone in that, but Ram is the only one who hasn't updated the truck along with the price hike

I think the '25 update will partially address #1, while #2 will only be partially addressed by the Ramcharger and REV. '25 pricing will mostly determine if #3 is an issue or not.

Frankly, I think the MCR is a pretty weak refresh. Tweaked front clip, mildly updated interior, and one new trim. Both Ford and GM had more solid MCRs than that.

Given that Ram is likely going to hold this new design for another 5-7 years before the next gen truck comes out, while Ford and GM will likely have a new gen well before then, I think ICE sales will see a modest bump for '25 and maybe '26 model years, then hold steady or decline again in comparison to Ford and GM.

The Ramcharger and REV models, on the other hand, I predict will be a rousing success provided Ram doesn't come out with outlandish pricing on them.

 

[BowDown]

Realistically, the 2025 refresh is likely enough. The DT, IMO, has been the nicest interior/exterior Ram has ever made. To me, Ram has reached the F150 phase which is, you finally have your product perfected enough that only minor tweaks are needed, the F 150 overall looks the same as it did in the 2000's. AllI see are cosmetic refinements and power plant changes which is all Ram probably needs at this point.

I think @Eighty is dead on with Rams issues and that's cafe stds/fines and emissions. They've had dirty inefficient engines since the dawn of time and I am a MOPAR head but facts are facts. When Dodge needed more power, they threw a bigger hammer at the problem rather than refine like GM and Ford did and they never made a small displacement reliable powerful engine until acquired by Fiat thus their cafe rating was poor

 

[BowDown]

When I mentioned reliability, it's more so the perception of reliability that's a concern, rather than actual reliability. Like it not, many don't have a good perception of the Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, Ram brands in general. And the manifold issue not ever getting resolved, didn't help with many first time Ram owners. I know at least one guy that won't even look at Ram for his next truck because of his multiple manifold repairs.

100% and that's why Viper was spun off on its own to try and escape that perception. I do believe Rams quality was greatly improved with the DS but 30 years of K-cars type vehicles is a hard stigma to break.
I here the Dodge quality comments all the time then they get in my truck and or go for a ride and they are blown away but "it's still a dodge" comes out of their mouth which is also why Dodge tried to rebrand itself with RAM Trucks and separate itself from Dodge

 

[RedFred]

Realistically, the 2025 refresh is likely enough. The DT, IMO, has been the nicest interior/exterior Ram has ever made. To me, Ram has reached the F150 phase which is, you finally have your product perfected enough that only minor tweaks are needed, the F 150 overall looks the same as it did in the 2000's. AllI see are cosmetic refinements and power plant changes which is all Ram probably needs at this point.

The difference is, Ford F series crushes Ram in sales. So Ford can afford to sit on its laurels, as they say. Ford has room to breath and slip if needed without causing panic.

 

[RedFred]

100% and that's why Viper was spun off on its own to try and escape that perception. I do believe Rams quality was greatly improved with the DS but 30 years of K-cars type vehicles is a hard stigma to break.
I here the Dodge quality comments all the time then they get in my truck and or go for a ride and they are blown away but "it's still a dodge" comes out of their mouth which is also why Dodge tried to rebrand itself with RAM Trucks and separate itself from Dodge

I agree. I was one of those people. I was extremely nervous buying my first Chrysler product and Ram 1500 in 2011. They proved me wrong as my trucks have been great. But I do remember the dealership giving me loaner cars when I went in for service, and some of the other cars in the line up in 2011, were down right embarrassing bad. So much has changed since then, but the damage to the brand, in regards to perception, has remained for many.