Stelantis pushback

[djevox]

Gas engines are very inefficient. Gas engines are typically around 40% efficient; every gallon of gas you use, only 40% is used to turn the wheels. Diesels slightly higher.

Electric cars are currently at about 80 to 85 percent.

I get what you’re saying- electric’s more efficient than any consumer fuel sources. There are people however that are still innovating. While the first search example does not match aerodynamics or creature comforts found in any consumer vehicle, the 2nd one shows the man who got great efficiency from a consumer vehicle that had an extrodinarily inefficient 427ci in a 4k pound vehicle before he mysteriously died.

Crazy gas mileage by students


Tom Ogle

 

[silver billet]

You have to factor in How the electricity is generated. For example, producing electricity from natural gas is 45% efficient (32% of coal). So the combined efficiency for an electric vehicle (assuming 80-85% is accurate) is 34-38% efficient, worse than the 40% ICE efficient you stated.

Yes, you’d also have to factor in the energy cost to extract, transport, and refine oil, but the same is true for natural gas.

I said this a number of posts ago, ideally we'd be converting to nukes and a mix of wind/solar/geothermal/tidal etc.

What matters is, if you flip the switch from gas to electric, what does our carbon/pollution numbers look like? If a car is only 10% efficient but was charged via solar/nuke, that's still a gain from using gas to power that car.

This is a good read:

EVs: Are they really more efficient?

They have been hailed as a new breed of vehicle that could surpass petrol-driven cars on safety, running costs, performance and design.

www.energycouncil.com.au

 

[silver billet]

I get what you’re saying- electric’s more efficient than any consumer fuel sources. There are people however that are still innovating. While the first search example does not match aerodynamics or creature comforts found in any consumer vehicle, the 2nd one shows the man who got great efficiency from a consumer vehicle that had an extrodinarily inefficient 427ci in a 4k pound vehicle before he mysteriously died.

Crazy gas mileage by students


Tom Ogle

I've never heard of Tom Ogle before, so thanks for the link. Did a brief search:

Is Tom Ogle's 100+mpg engine actually feasible?

I've just read about Tom Ogle, an inventor who claims to have built an fuel injection system that can achieve 100+ mpg and has apparently proven it, before dying in suspicious circumstances. From a

mechanics.stackexchange.com

 

[djevox]

I've never heard of Tom Ogle before, so thanks for the link. Did a brief search:

Is Tom Ogle's 100+mpg engine actually feasible?

I've just read about Tom Ogle, an inventor who claims to have built an fuel injection system that can achieve 100+ mpg and has apparently proven it, before dying in suspicious circumstances. From a

mechanics.stackexchange.com

For what it’s worth, I would love EV‘s to be main stream/viable enough for heavy duty trucks, semi‘s, or even AG usage.

I have to do more research, but I’m pretty sure an electric vehicle was made in the late 1800s. I don’t know if the oil booms had anything to do with that not taking off, which is something else I still have to research.

 

[Trooper4]

The unfortunate reality is that we need gov't mandates to control pollution, people and companies will not do it by themselves.




All of the pollution control devices on our cars and trucks, that was all a result of gov't mandates. EGR emisisons on diesels, catalytic converters etc.

We don't need citations for this because we can look back and see what happened. Projecting costs for 10 years down the road, I'm going to need some expert consensus on that before I just blindly accept some random guys statement on the internet.



Obviously I was exaggerating. Point is, all those SRT engines we love so much, they're getting tossed not because people are demanding 40 mpg, but because it's too expensive for FCA to produce those. They can't afford to pay for the emissions and low mpg due to regulation and mandates. Without those, they would build these SRTs for as long as people keep buying them. So the demand to produce them is there, despite the horrifying MPG ratings, but they're stopping production anyway, due to regulation.

In a true democratic nation, the people can mandate through the ballot box, what the elected officials should, and or, will do, but the government should never mandate on its own, and for it's own purpose, what it's people should do.

Pollution control was not mandated, it was environmental regulation, set in place by a mandate of the people. The government would have done nothing, and in fact did nothing, until the people demanded it. And as we all know, no free society can survive without regulations of some sort, and, in fact we are supposed to regulate our politicians at the ballot box. We have regulations because people, corporations, government, etc.., will almost always act in their own best interest, and not in the interest of the whole. When our` government regulates through the electoral and the vote of the people, the country runs pretty efficiently. The modern day government, however, is turning to the way of the socialist dictatorial leadership that has to resort to mandates, without due process, and outside of the constitution that our nation was founded on. I don't mind regulation, and in fact, live quite well with it, as long as I have some control over it. When the government mandates that I do something, anything, without due process, I get a little irritated, and wonder when I will start loosing the right of free choice in something else.
Don't give up my rights too easily, because yours are next.

 

[Trooper4]

You have to factor in How the electricity is generated. For example, producing electricity from natural gas is 45% efficient (32% of coal). So the combined efficiency for an electric vehicle (assuming 80-85% is accurate) is 34-38% efficient, worse than the 40% ICE efficient you stated.

Yes, you’d also have to factor in the energy cost to extract, transport, and refine oil, but the same is true for natural gas.

And also true for cost of EV infrastructure, including battery production costs including obtaining the rare earth metals, electricity production increase required to charge all the batteries, charging stations as easily reached as gas stations, and the list goes on. I really don't see a break even point economically or environmentally for quite a few years. I'll just stick with what I have (Ram and Prius Hybrid) for the time being.
The point of the whole original post was the pushback against MANDATES, as opposed to technology gains by working WITH manufacturers. It all takes time, and to mandate a timeline in the absence of reality is problematic at best.

 

[silver billet]

In a true democratic nation, the people can mandate through the ballot box, what the elected officials should, and or, will do, but the government should never mandate on its own, and for it's own purpose, what it's people should do.

Pollution control was not mandated, it was environmental regulation, set in place by a mandate of the people. The government would have done nothing, and in fact did nothing, until the people demanded it. And as we all know, no free society can survive without regulations of some sort, and, in fact we are supposed to regulate our politicians at the ballot box. We have regulations because people, corporations, government, etc.., will almost always act in their own best interest, and not in the interest of the whole. When our` government regulates through the electoral and the vote of the people, the country runs pretty efficiently. The modern day government, however, is turning to the way of the socialist dictatorial leadership that has to resort to mandates, without due process, and outside of the constitution that our nation was founded on. I don't mind regulation, and in fact, live quite well with it, as long as I have some control over it. When the government mandates that I do something, anything, without due process, I get a little irritated, and wonder when I will start loosing the right of free choice in something else.
Don't give up my rights too easily, because yours are next.

You don't have a right to drive a gas guzzling v10 which gets 10 mpg ( <--- warning, use of hyperbole). Driving is a privilege, even in the USA.

 

[SpeedyV]

You have to factor in How the electricity is generated. For example, producing electricity from natural gas is 45% efficient (32% for coal). So the combined efficiency for an electric vehicle (assuming 80-85% is accurate) is 34-38% efficient, worse than the 40% ICE efficiency you stated.

Yes, you’d also have to factor in the energy cost to extract, transport, and refine oil, but the same is true for natural gas.

Factoring in the energy source, EVs are about 59-62% efficient, whereas conventional gasoline vehicles are 17-21% efficient on average. (Source: US Department of Energy’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy) In other words, EVs are roughly 3x more efficient in "wells to wheels" energy use.

It is often pointed out that EVs produce more emissions than ICE vehicles during manufacture, mainly due to battery production. This is true; they produce 30-40% more emissions, actually. However, in 95% of the world, the lifetime emissions of an EV are still less than that of an ICE vehicle, i.e. "driving an electric car is better for the environment than driving a gasoline-powered car" (Source: "Net emission reductions from electric cars and heat pumps in 59 world regions over time", Nature magazine, 2020). So the lifetime emissions of an EV are less than those of an ICE vehicle despite grids (and thus EV manufacturing) being mainly powered by fossil fuels.

Reuters also did a study on this using a model developed by the Argonne National Laboratory (Chicago) in which they found that a Tesla Model 3 becomes "greener" (in terms of lifetime emissions) than a Toyota Corolla at 13,500 miles using an average electricity source mix in the US. In a country like Norway, where nearly all electricity is from hydropower, the breakeven point is 8,400 miles. Conversely, it would take 78,700 miles to break even in China. (Source: "Analysis: When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline cars?", Reuters, 7/7/2021).

In other words, it's "greener" to drive an EV now from an energy use and emissions production perspective. It'll be much, much greener if and when green energy production increases and/or sustainable battery production is achieved. My only question with EV "greenness" has to do with recyclability. What % of an EV (including the batteries) can be recycled vs. an ICE vehicle?

 

[Trooper4]

You don't have a right to drive a gas guzzling v10 which gets 10 mpg ( <--- warning, use of hyperbole). Driving is a privilege, even in the USA.

Yes, driving on US roads, and in the rest of the world, is indeed a privilege. But, that only pertains to the rules of the road and the laws that go with them. Labeling an vehicle as a "gas guzzler" is subjective. Someone driving a high mpg vehicle would consider our trucks as "gas guzzlers", and if they were in a position of power, ban all gas guzzlers by mandate, because they see no need for them. A person may not have the right to drive on our roads, but they do have a right to drive what they please as long as it meets the requirements of the laws of that state's and the federal governing body's.
And that is the whole point. It may make sense today for some to drive an EV, but any governing body that mandates doing away with all ICEs at some point, and everyone buying an EV, is overstepping and will always get a considerable amount of pushback.
Like mandating that we all BUY health insurance in order to make it more affordable. And we see how well that is working at keeping costs down.

 

[silver billet]

Yes, driving on US roads, and in the rest of the world, is indeed a privilege. But, that only pertains to the rules of the road and the laws that go with them. Labeling an vehicle as a "gas guzzler" is subjective. Someone driving a high mpg vehicle would consider our trucks as "gas guzzlers", and if they were in a position of power, ban all gas guzzlers by mandate, because they see no need for them. A person may not have the right to drive on our roads, but they do have a right to drive what they please as long as it meets the requirements of the laws of that state's and the federal governing body's.
And that is the whole point. It may make sense today for some to drive an EV, but any governing body that mandates doing away with all ICEs at some point, and everyone buying an EV, is overstepping and will always get a considerable amount of pushback.
Like mandating that we all BUY health insurance in order to make it more affordable. And we see how well that is working at keeping costs down.

Well there are extremes on all sides. Some are indeed trying to ban trucks ( ) to them I say "good luck".

I think I've said everything I can on this subject so I'm going to bow out at this point.

 

[Trooper4]

Well there are extremes on all sides. Some are indeed trying to ban trucks ( ) to them I say "good luck".

I think I've said everything I can on this subject so I'm going to bow out at this point.

Ditto

 

[56 Pontiac]

In America we ... have been the most innovative country in the world. That has been a direct result of a capitalist society.

Which we no longer are.

Dave

 

[56 Pontiac]

(But wait, the government will take care of us, and, you know it always has our best interests at heart.)

Yep "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you"

Dave

 

[KonaKruiser]

Can't wait to drive my 5.7 Hemi around Kona Hawaii....just to **** off the deep blue Democrats that run this State.

Heck...I might even put a Trump 2024 bumper sticker on it!

 

[millerbjm]

You guys seriously crack me up - it's good to know you have so many stereotypes about 'deep blue socialist democrats' you wouldn't even notice me infiltrating your meeting with my guns, camo and V8 hemi 4x4 O.k. and now I'll go search out threads about trucks like this forum is made for - after all this isn't Parler it is 5thgenrams!

 

[silver billet]

You guys seriously crack me up - it's good to know you have so many stereotypes about 'deep blue socialist democrats' you wouldn't even notice me infiltrating your meeting with my guns, camo and V8 hemi 4x4 O.k. and now I'll go search out threads about trucks like this forum is made for - after all this isn't Parler it is 5thgenrams!

When you don't understand somebody or their position, or don't like them for one reason or another; just apply a scary label to them and drop them in a neat and tidy box, keeps things simple for you.

 

[Trooper4]

When you don't understand somebody or their position, or don't like them for one reason or another; just apply a scary label to them and drop them in a neat and tidy box, keeps things simple for you.

Don't forget the bow