Stelantis pushback

[millerbjm]

And that's a rapppp/. Sorry, partisan points are not allowed.......

What did I say that was partisan?

 

[Trooper4]

What did I say that was partisan?

It is obvious that you and I are of different political ilk's. You believe all the cr@p that is coming out of DC, whereas I have to hold my nose.

 

[millerbjm]

It is obvious that you and I are of different political ilk's. You believe all the cr@p that is coming out of DC, whereas I have to hold my nose.

Believe what you wish but your really making some big leaps there about my beliefs. I don't see this as a political discussion, was simply saying I think Americans can achieve great things in times of uncertainty when we work together and with our allies instead of going to our corners and allowing souvt to win. I love my Hemi but an also excited for the electric and other powerplants In our future.

 

[Trooper4]

Believe what you wish but your really making some big leaps there about my beliefs. I don't see this as a political discussion, was simply saying I think Americans can achieve great things in times of uncertainty when we work together and with our allies instead of going to our corners and allowing souvt to win. I love my Hemi but an also excited for the electric and other powerplants In our future.

Don't believe everything you hear/read. It's all about the money. Fill our heads with DS problems and charge us to fix it.

 

[TSL]

Lots to overcome to get this to mainstream use for the everyday Joe's like us. Where is all the raw material going to come from and at what cost to create all the batteries needed. We need an entirely new industry to collect, recycle and redistribute all the worn out power units. We aren't going to flip a switch (I hope) overnight and we are all in EV's. Do we have the capacity to generate all the electricity needed? Will the national electric grid stand the extra load? With 2 home fast chargers you are approaching a 400AMP service, that takes approval from the utilities and some very real and expensive modifications to your home electric wiring. EV's are not really meant for long distance trips as I understand it. I'm thinking of the 940 mile trip to see the Grandkids. I like doing that in one shot. The infrastructure and charging stations are just not in existence yet.

Some utility companies have sold off their transmission lines, and simply pay to use them rather than maintain them. That is a complicated agreement with so many weasel words in it, no one will ever make complete sense out of it. Ours did several years ago. That's part of the reason the national grid is less than it should be.

Then there are natural disasters, ice storms, wind storms, tornadoes, hurricanes where you lose power for days and sometimes weeks. Then what do you do if all you have is an EV?

Then there is the expense of an EV which is over and above a gas engine vehicle, way over currently.

As a stop gap I can see more and more hybrid cars and light trucks. That makes mores sense to me, but, if you do the math on the cost savings with the increased miles per gallon, does it offset the cost of replacing the hybrid battery down the road. I don't see that problem solved right at this moment.

At least with hybrids you can keep going and not plug up the road because you ran out of juice.

I know we have to start somewhere, but I just don't see the practicality of it on a large scale at this point in time.

Good summary.
I was considering an F150 before settling on the Ram Rebel that I've just ordered last week. I did look at the F150 hybrid vs the 3.5 Ecoboost. It was $1900 more for the hybrid as I recall. The difference was 24mpg ( combined ) for the hybrid vs 20mpg for the Ecoboost ( EPA numbers, not real world ) I did the math on those 4mpg improvement and figured I needed I think it was 65,000 miles of driving to break even before I start saving. That was going to take me ~ 6 yrs. Just to break even. The ROI just wasn't there.

 

[Scram1500]

It's right in the title, "mandates". The powers that be need a better marketing strategy than "mandatory". People don't react well to being pushed around, specially by brain dead politicians

 

[millerbjm]

Good summary.
I was considering an F150 before settling on the Ram Rebel that I've just ordered last week. I did look at the F150 hybrid vs the 3.5 Ecoboost. It was $1900 more for the hybrid as I recall. The difference was 24mpg ( combined ) for the hybrid vs 20mpg for the Ecoboost ( EPA numbers, not real world ) I did the math on those 4mpg improvement and figured I needed I think it was 65,000 miles of driving to break even before I start saving. That was going to take me ~ 6 yrs. Just to break even. The ROI just wasn't there.

The main thing I find intriguing about the powerboost hybrid is the ability to use the hybrid battery as a power source. I was camping at a music fest and a friend let me use his battery to plug in my travel trailer and run all my appliances for a couple days. Would be nice for running tools, tailgating, camping.

 

[jkm312]

What happens if you live in Californ!c@t!on and they turn off the transmission line because there is a wind advisory? Get a wind powered, solar, electric car/truck?

Hot air balloon?

 

[Rammit]

I always get a kick out of the seemingly constant nay-sayers on electrification and other new modes of power. This is America and we can do anything if we band together and decide collectively it is worth the investment. The Infrastructure bill is investing heavily in building the power gris and charging infrastructure we need to keep pace or not fall as far behind with Europe and Asia and would have done even more had other investments not fallen victim to the constant partisan gridlock and tendancy for both parties to just always say no to the other's ideas. We are the richest country on the planet and attract the best talent from the world - we just need to remember we're all working together and I think we could surprise ourselves with how fast we could make needed changes.

In America we are and always have been the most innovative country in the world. That has been a direct result of a capitalist society. Have a good idea that can change the world, you get rich. Ideas and innovations are answers to problems. Weather it’s harvesting crops, moving product or medical advances. The great minds and inventors perfect and sell an idea. These advances never come at the request of the government. In socialist societies where government. Dictates what you do and how to do it, innovation stagnated. This continuous push towards EV’s is an answer to a question no one is asking. We have cheap, reliable and fuel efficient vehicles that we can drive for 200k miles and still have some resale. I do believe eventually a new technology will make combustion engines obsolete. That advancement will come from forward thinkers and not government persuasion.

 

[millerbjm]

Generally a false narrative to attribute most of our major advances solely to the free market - in most cases when we see businesses innovating they are helped by government funded research at land grant universities, technology developed by DOD with Federal dollars and through large govt contracts like we see currently with NASA and Amazon etc. It's like when that group got mad at Obama for saying we all need each other and they planned a rally in DC with a pledge to only use private roads in their travel - let's just say they didn't get far. I fully agree that a truly socialist governments don't do well but the United States is not and never has been a Socialist government despite many false claims to the contrary. We've had our biggest success when government and industry partner and taxpayers help accelerate investment in big ideas. When it comes to alternative fuels and mitigating climate change the military is heavily invested in change for strategic advavtage.

 

[silver billet]

The oil industry gets 20 billion a year in subsidies. Corn/ethanol is also heavily subsidized. So much for free market and capitalism.

In America we are and always have been the most innovative country in the world.

Not true at all.

 

[Trooper4]

Hot air balloon?

That's right. All those socialist politicians ARE good for somethingLMAO!

 

[Trooper4]

It's right in the title, "mandates". The powers that be need a better marketing strategy than "mandatory". People don't react well to being pushed around, specially by brain dead politicians

How many has DC pushed out since the recent abuse of power started? "We The People" definitely don't react well to mandates as you can see. But I digress. No politics allowed. Sorry.

 

[Scram1500]

The oil industry gets 20 billion a year in subsidies. Corn/ethanol is also heavily subsidized. So much for free market and capitalism.

How much is green energy getting in subsidies? They're throwing around numbers in the trillions when talking about green new deals

 

[silver billet]

How much is green energy getting in subsidies? They're throwing around numbers in the trillions when talking about green new deals

I'm far from an expert, I googled it, top result from wikipedia:

In the United States, the federal government has paid US$145 billion for energy subsidies to support R&D for nuclear power ($85 billion) and fossil fuels ($60 billion) from 1950 to 2016. During this same timeframe, renewable energy technologies received a total of US $34 billion.

I'm not against subsidies though. Far from it. It's a 100% certainty that new technology can never overcome a massively entrenched player in given market, without some "outside interference", shall we say. Doesn't matter how good the tech is, how much it can improve the earth and/or our lives, it will never see financial success because the market is dominated by other players that will look after their own interests first (the very nature of capitalism, is it not?).

We need the ball to get rolling, people to adopt the tech, get a whole economy rolling around it etc before the prices can come down enough to compete on their own merit. Chicken and egg, nobody buys electric cars because they cost too much, and they cost too much so nobody buys them. However, if you dump billions into the industry to prime the pump, the costs to consumers comes down and the ball gets rolling.

And, sometimes the better option (for the earth, for us) just costs more and we need to suck it up. The scientific consensus (in the entire world, this isn't some political game only being played in the USA) is pretty absolute and clear, we need to get off oil for our power and transportation. Right now it makes the most sense for cars to be electric, and trucks to be gas and/or hybrids. I'm not suggesting we all trade in our trucks, but I will admit I'm happy to see the progress electric trucks are making.

 

[Scram1500]

I'm far from an expert, I googled it, top result from wikipedia:



I'm not against subsidies though. Far from it. It's a 100% certainty that new technology can never overcome a massively entrenched player in given market, without some "outside interference", shall we say. Doesn't matter how good the tech is, how much it can improve the earth and/or our lives, it will never see financial success because the market is dominated by other players that will look after their own interests first (the very nature of capitalism, is it not?).

We need the ball to get rolling, people to adopt the tech, get a whole economy rolling around it etc before the prices can come down enough to compete on their own merit. Chicken and egg, nobody buys electric cars because they cost too much, and they cost too much so nobody buys them. However, if you dump billions into the industry to prime the pump, the costs to consumers comes down and the ball gets rolling.

And, sometimes the better option (for the earth, for us) just costs more and we need to suck it up. The scientific consensus (in the entire world, this isn't some political game only being played in the USA) is pretty absolute and clear, we need to get off oil for our power and transportation. Right now it makes the most sense for cars to be electric, and trucks to be gas and/or hybrids. I'm not suggesting we all trade in our trucks, but I will admit I'm happy to see the progress electric trucks are making.

Who says EVs are the better for the earth? There is a trade off we aren't hearing about due to a corrupt system of politics and media. The energy has to come from somewhere to power EVs. Every square inch of land will need a wind mill or solar panel if we want to reduce emissions

 

[silver billet]

Who says EVs are the better for the earth? There is a trade off we aren't hearing about due to a corrupt system of politics and media. The energy has to come from somewhere to power EVs. Every square inch of land will need a wind mill or solar panel if we want to reduce emissions

Personally I'd like to see a massive increase on research into nukes. Nukes for the baseload, and a combination of hydro, solar, wind, maybe even geothermal for the rest.

Battery tech is also ever improving, and some of that stuff is now beginning to be recycled (there is a startup in Japan for example that's doing this). But even when using coal/natural gas plants for generating EV power, it's cheaper, better, and far more efficient to capture all that pollution at the single source, then try and have pollution control on every tiny little vehicle that's trying to balance other priorities (weight, space etc).

And again, this isn't just "corrupt US politics/media". Literally every country in the world is headed in this direction. It's time for us to drop the horse and buggy and move on.

 

[jimothy]

I'm not against subsidies though. Far from it. It's a 100% certainty that new technology can never overcome a massively entrenched player in given market, without some "outside interference", shall we say.

Which explains why IBM still dominates personal computers, Nokia is the leading cell phone provider, and everyone uses AT&T to make long distance phone calls.

 

[silver billet]

Which explains why IBM still dominates personal computers, Nokia is the leading cell phone provider, and everyone uses AT&T to make long distance phone calls.

Completely different levels of "vendor lock in". None of those companies had anything preventing you from leaving. Dell/HP etc could give you the exact same identical experience just by changing who you did business with.

Electrical power is very disruptive to our lives and habits, has disadvantages (yes they're there, I'm not blind), but we really should be adopting it despite all that. It's going to need subsidies.

 

[Trooper4]

Let me stir the post that I started:
All the rare metal/mineral extraction, with different mining methods, all the processing and process waste, all the energy used in the manufacture, packaging, transportation et al, plus all the manufacture of all the solar panels and construction of solar farms, etc., etc., that is needed to charge all the electric vehicles that are/will be MANDATED, will never be less than the pollution that is created by all the fossil fuel vehicles that are on the road today and the next 10 years.
A blending of electric and fossil fuel vehicles, which a person can CHOOSE in order to meet their individual needs, is a workable solution, and is what is happening now, and without a MANDATE.
Besides, depending on the politician you listen to, it's all the methane that cows give off that are part of the cause.
(Maybe we could put all the cows in a barn and trap the methane and burn it in our cars)