Ram Could Build An Electrified Ram, If Customers Request It:

[LaxDfns15]

What law is broken with my thinking? Always happy to learn. Seriously, don't see it. A shaft is rotating anyway, put it to use in power generation to recharge the onboard battery, then use a small auxiliary gasoline-powered generator if the rotating shaft generators aren't able to sufficiently recharge the battery to kick on at X voltage. What am I missing?

This is coming from a couple years teaching physics in college while I worked on my grad degree. You've put me in teaching mode so this is 100% not meant to be condescending.

EV's work differently than gas vehicles. Most of the truck prototypes I've seen have 4 motors for AWD. That means there are no shafts running the length of the vehicle. But let's say there are 2 motors with shafts going to the wheels (basically where front and rear diffs would be). Let's say you have RWD and 4WD modes just like we do now. To have a charging system stacked onto the front drivetrain when you're in RWD mode that's extra weight, extra space, and extra friction on one or both of the front drive shafts. The friction that is added to the drive shaft comes from something having to be attached to generate power to run the charger. This is similar to how regenerative braking works, as slowing the vehicle down pulls energy from the spinning wheels back to the battery. In the case of braking it's the drive motor reversing direction. Drive a Nissan Leaf with the "one pedal" system and you'll see what I'm talking about.

All 3 of those things increase power consumption because no real world system is perfectly efficient. Friction causes heat, which is essentially energy lost to the environment. Weight causes more friction, so see point 1. Bigger vehicle typically means less aerodynamic, which causes extra friction (against the air), again see point 1. So we have more friction from 3 sources. The only way putting a charging system onto a vehicle would be if the energy returned is greater than the energy consumed. That's why I said it's like trying to charge your phone with your phone.

Because no system (electrical system in the vehicle) is perfectly efficient, we're already losing power just by plugging the motors into the battery. I think it's said that EV's are about 20% efficient so they lose 80% of their power to other "stuff". Regenerative brakes only capture about half of that back, so let's say they're 60% efficient.

I think a hybrid truck would be decent, but then you've got a truck that either has a pitiful 20-50 mile electric range (think Chevy Volt) or a pathetic gas engine because you have to put a 1.5L 4 cylinder in it. It'll also weigh about 7500 pounds for a 1/2 ton truck, compared to our current ~5500 pounds.

 

[Dookie]

Understood, and I guess I should have been more specific, my comment was meant in a more general automotive/transportation sense than our trucks. I'm very electrically challenged, but fully understand constraints, efficiencies, friction, and the mechanical end of things. Didn't take your post as condescending at all, thanks for the preface. I do still believe the industry could or already do (ignorant again) have electrically powered vehicles that can travel thousands of miles on its own without an outside source recharge, except an onboard gasoline-powered and maybe solar. I do believe the tech exists to achieve this, but at what cost and what market would it have? I don't know. Thanks again.

 

[LaxDfns15]

Understood, and I guess I should have been more specific, my comment was meant in a more general automotive/transportation sense than our trucks. I'm very electrically challenged, but fully understand constraints, efficiencies, friction, and the mechanical end of things. Didn't take your post as condescending at all, thanks for the preface. I do still believe the industry could or already do (ignorant again) have electrically powered vehicles that can travel thousands of miles on its own without an outside source recharge, except an onboard gasoline-powered and maybe solar. I do believe the tech exists to achieve this, but at what cost and what market would it have? I don't know. Thanks again.

I think semi's will be the biggest benefactors of EV tech. Think about a 400+ square foot section of solar panels on a trailer. Potentially a rack that you can just move from trailer to trailer then plug into the truck itself. There are already companies that build solar stuff for them to power the in-cabin electronics and refrigeration systems.

 

[SpeedyV]

What law is broken with my thinking? Always happy to learn. Seriously, don't see it. A shaft is rotating anyway, put it to use in power generation to recharge the onboard battery, then use a small auxiliary gasoline-powered generator if the rotating shaft generators aren't able to sufficiently recharge the battery to kick on at X voltage. What am I missing?

Conservation of energy

In short, it's not possible for the energy output of a system to exceed its input. You might see a 'surplus' when energy in some other form has been added to the system. For example, a home that has a large number of PV panels, a Tesla PowerWall, and a conventional meter might generate 'net positive' energy to the grid at times, but only because it has supplemental solar energy as an input.

Let's say you want to draw energy from a rotating shaft to generate power. You can do this, of course. But you cannot achieve a perfect exchange (i.e. 100% efficiency). Some of that energy will be lost to heat from additional drag induced, some will be lost due to bearing friction, etc. And since that part was already being used to transfer energy from one place to another, you've simply siphoned off some of that energy and redirected it to power regeneration (and other forms of energy, e.g. heat and friction).

So if we assume the input energy from the engine and transmission remains constant, all you've done is split where the energy is delivered. In a driveline, this means you're delivering less power to the wheels in an attempt to return some of it (after losses) to the generator (which will also introduce some losses as it charges the batteries). In order to continue to deliver the same power to the wheels, then, you'd have to draw more power from the motor, which would deplete the batteries faster, which then would require you to generate even more power. See how this goes?

 

[SpeedyV]

I do still believe the industry could or already do (ignorant again) have electrically powered vehicles that can travel thousands of miles on its own without an outside source recharge, except an onboard gasoline-powered and maybe solar. I do believe the tech exists to achieve this, but at what cost and what market would it have? I don't know. Thanks again.

Yes...extended-range hybrids, as popularized with the Chevy Volt, do a great job here. They're doing exactly what I said, i.e. introducing additional energy into the system from efficient forms of storage, e.g. a fuel tank and small gas engine/generator to charge batteries on the fly. But this is only a stop-gap solution that makes sense until such time as batteries can store enough energy in a small form factor to handle range requirements. A battery-only solution would then be ideal, as it would result in a MUCH simpler system (in terms of mechanical complexity and packaging) than an extended-range hybrid.

 

[Cal3600]

The posts on efficiency are spot on. Ultimately EV is significantly more efficient, conservatively speaking - 2/3's more efficient than gas, 1/3 more than diesel. And they provide impressive torque - after all, they've been doing this for decades in locomotives and other industrial applications. To be frank, I was set to buy a Tesla truck until I saw how damn ugly it was. We're probably 1-2 years away from 500+ range trucks. Already a Level 3 Charger can charge a vehicle to 80% in 20 mins. Personally, I'd prefer to get another RAM now that I'm completely enamored with mine. But if RAM sits on the sidelines here, they'll pay for it.

 

[LaxDfns15]

The posts on efficiency are spot on. Ultimately EV is significantly more efficient, conservatively speaking - 2/3's more efficient than gas, 1/3 more than diesel. And they provide impressive torque - after all, they've been doing this for decades in locomotives and other industrial applications. To be frank, I was set to buy a Tesla truck until I saw how damn ugly it was. We're probably 1-2 years away from 500+ range trucks. Already a Level 4 Charger can charge a vehicle to 80% in 20 mins. Personally, I'd prefer to get another RAM now that I'm completely enamored with mine. But if RAM sits on the sidelines here, they'll pay for it.

I think Rivian and/or Ford (since they're slapping an F-150 body on a Rivian chassis) will be first to the market. I honestly like the way the Rivian looks, but yeah I'm not quite to the point of dropping 80k on a truck. My wife will most likely get an EV before I do.

 

[Adrianp89]

I love my wifes Model 3 - if I could have that drive train in my current Ram - I would be a very happy customer. The #s on the CyberTruck are just stupid good, it just looks stupid.

Of course half of make the Tesla so good is the software - and they are probably 10 years ahead of Ram when it comes to autonomous driving.

 

[hunter1234]

One option in the future to watch for is imbedded wireless charging in the pavement, lot of R&D on it, they have test beds in Europe and if they do get it to work you could embed a charger in the freeway. Likely will be in home driveways as a convenience feature first but eventually if the demand is there and the money it could move to freeways. Granted it would be a long time before it hit a lot of roads and still a lot of issues to get around but with all the sensors now in the road it just may be around that long distant corner. Of course demand and governments could push it a lot faster but a few years ago cell phones did not have it and now they all seem to have the ability. Of course I am waiting for mass production of the flying car, bring on George Jetson.

 

[SpeedyV]

One option in the future to watch for is imbedded wireless charging in the pavement, lot of R&D on it, they have test beds in Europe and if they do get it to work you could embed a charger in the freeway. Likely will be in home driveways as a convenience feature first but eventually if the demand is there and the money it could move to freeways. Granted it would be a long time before it hit a lot of roads and still a lot of issues to get around but with all the sensors now in the road it just may be around that long distant corner. Of course demand and governments could push it a lot faster but a few years ago cell phones did not have it and now they all seem to have the ability. Of course I am waiting for mass production of the flying car, bring on George Jetson.

Atlis is down to a 9-minute full charge time. Won’t be long before it’s faster than filling up with gas.

 

[Drewster]

As for the eTorque I’m don’t have one so don’t know much about it. Does it actually run off the battery while at low speeds or, as I understand it, it is just for the start/stop function while stopped at a light or intersection? In heavy traffic/big cities that would help some with mpg but to me not enough to incur the added maintenance/vehicle cost.

I didn't see anyone actually answer your question.. eTorque runs off a 48V battery in the cab that'll regulate down to 12 for the truck - it can keep the truck powered longer at stoplights, and provide extra torque to the engine when needed. Obviously it facilitates start/ stop, but it can control crank speed so the startup/ shutdown is perfectly smooth.

The cool part is that it actually saves wear on the brakes and transmission. Because it can control engine speed, they can use it to slow down/ speed up the engine on shifts rather than wearing transmission clutches, and it's generating power as you slow down, saving wear on brakes.

Yeah, it's new and a few people are having issues, but it also has more benefits than start/ stop

 

[Drewster]

One option in the future to watch for is [e]mbedded wireless charging in the pavement

The biggest problems with that are cost, location, and energy density.

The US government generally isn't about free lunch, so spending of billions of taxpayer dollars so cars can have a longer range is a little laughable when we can't repair bridges and potholes.

Even worse, the area that would help is out in the boonies between cities, so you're talking about spending billions on infrastructure where a minority of the population will drive.

Lastly, and most importantly, it takes a lot of energy to charge a car or even fuel it along the highway. Doing it inductively means you have an electromagnetic field with hundreds of kilowatts of energy, which would make a fantastic heater, a shock hazard to road workers, and a great antenna... but a really "meh" charger.

Charging with a plug and HV DV definitely seems like the logical route for most of the world.

 

[LaxDfns15]

Atlis is down to a 9-minute full charge time. Won’t be long before it’s faster than filling up with gas.

They say it's down to a 9 minute charge time. I've been watching Atlis really closely, and I'm hoping they live up to their own hype, but I'm hesitant to believe it yet.

 

[Reverse]

What law is broken with my thinking? Always happy to learn. Seriously, don't see it. A shaft is rotating anyway, put it to use in power generation to recharge the onboard battery, then use a small auxiliary gasoline-powered generator if the rotating shaft generators aren't able to sufficiently recharge the battery to kick on at X voltage. What am I missing?

I believe BMW has (had?) what you describe. Used a small scooter engine for backup power.

 

[SpeedyV]

They say it's down to a 9 minute charge time. I've been watching Atlis really closely, and I'm hoping they live up to their own hype, but I'm hesitant to believe it yet.

Yeah...I've been debating about whether to invest in them. They hit 13 minutes with their charge time in 2018, so I can buy 9 minutes now. These prototype battery packs are approaching what we might think of as giant capacitors...pretty cool. In commercial use, we're not quite there yet. The Porsche Taycan can charge from zero to 80% in 23 minutes, and the Tesla Model 3 in 28 minutes (~250 miles of range). If they can cut that time in half again over the next couple of years, leveraging technology similar to Atlis, then we're really getting somewhere.

 

[SpeedyV]

I believe BMW has (had?) what you describe. Used a small scooter engine for backup power.

BMW i3 REx, Chevy Volt, Opel Ampera, Smart ForTwo Rinspeed Dock+Go, future Mazda MX-30 range-extended version, Ford Transit, Nissan e-NV200 (hydrogen), Karma Revero (formerly Fisker Karma)...

 

[LaxDfns15]

Yeah...I've been debating about whether to invest in them. They hit 13 minutes with their charge time in 2018, so I can buy 9 minutes now. These prototype battery packs are approaching what we might think of as giant capacitors...pretty cool. In commercial use, we're not quite there yet. The Porsche Taycan can charge from zero to 80% in 23 minutes, and the Tesla Model 3 in 28 minutes (~250 miles of range). If they can cut that time in half again over the next couple of years, leveraging technology similar to Atlis, then we're really getting somewhere.

That's my hope. I wouldn't mind a 10-15 minute break every 250-300 miles of driving. You usually spend that long anyway at a gas station, especially if you have kids.

Still my biggest hangup on an EV truck is range. I'm not going to get a truck that should have a bigger battery than a car that only has a 300-400 mile range non-towing. Towing, that means you're stopping every 150-200 miles at best.

 

[Neurobit]

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

Why wouldn’t he be? This is how the Chevy Volt worked. It had a small combustion engine to charge the onboard batteries, and it was a marvel of engineering at the time. They’ve recently discountinied (2017 I believe) because of low sales, but the tech is available.

 

[SpeedyV]

That's my hope. I wouldn't mind a 10-15 minute break every 250-300 miles of driving. You usually spend that long anyway at a gas station, especially if you have kids.

Still my biggest hangup on an EV truck is range. I'm not going to get a truck that should have a bigger battery than a car that only has a 300-400 mile range non-towing. Towing, that means you're stopping every 150-200 miles at best.

This has me veeeerrrrrrryyy curious about the upcoming Hummer (launching next month) and all of the other impending EV truck releases. Trucks have the volume to handle larger battery packs, especially with much lighter drivetrains, so I'm guessing range can be dealt with easily. Charging those monster battery packs remains the issue (to me). Multiple ports?

 

[LaxDfns15]

Why wouldn’t he be? This is how the Chevy Volt worked. It had a small combustion engine to charge the onboard batteries, and it was a marvel of engineering at the time. They’ve recently discountinied (2017 I believe) because of low sales, but the tech is available.

My response there was in reference to an infinite energy source (not possible). Extending the range through use of other energy sources is common and feasible. The issue you run into there is weight, complexity, and cost. I think I said it in another post, but you either end up with a basically worthless electric motor and a big gas motor (E-torque anyone?) or a worthless gas motor and a big battery. I don't think anyone wants a 7000 pound half ton truck.

Regenerative braking is the best solution currently to recapture some energy, and it should be pretty standard on all EV's. Another option, especially with recent developments, is solar panels in the roof. This comes into play with the bigger vehicles like trucks and SUV's with a lot of surface area on the roof, as well as semis. I see EV tech being huge for tractor-trailer setups where you can have the ability to recharge while driving and/or during their required breaks.