Oil!!!!

[PowerJrod]

This should be interesting....
So the Mrs. Picked up a new 2020 Toyota RAV4....found out yesterday that it uses 0w16 oil, which is crazy thin...like water. Manual states its for better cold startups and fuel economy. Seeing how we live in a hot as hell climate (112°F yesterday) is this oil REALLY a good idea? Plus...I think my 5W20 oil seems a little watery for my 5.7 Ram when it's this hot. Ideas?? Comments???

 

[AmericanRebelution]

I always follow manufacture's recommendation regardless of the fact that "Grandpa used 10W30 in everything and never had a problem in 75 years". If it were me, I wouldn't be trying to out-smart Toyota's engineers. I'm sure they anticipated their vehicles being sold in hot climates.

 

[WXman]

1) That oil is available at Walmart in 5 quart jugs for $22 per jug. So it's not really that expensive if you decide to stick with it during warranty period.

2) There's no way in h*** I'd put a 0W16 in anything sitting in my driveway. "The engineers know best." Sure, but the bean counters write their paychecks. They spec oil for CAFE purposes and to avoid EPA fines, to save the manufacturer as much money as possible. They don't care if your engine hits 200k miles. In fact, they probably hope it doesn't so you'll buy another.

 

[AmericanRebelution]

1) That oil is available at Walmart in 5 quart jugs for $22 per jug. So it's not really that expensive if you decide to stick with it during warranty period.

2) There's no way in h*** I'd put a 0W16 in anything sitting in my driveway. "The engineers know best." Sure, but the bean counters write their paychecks. They spec oil for CAFE purposes and to avoid EPA fines, to save the manufacturer as much money as possible. They don't care if your engine hits 200k miles. In fact, they probably hope it doesn't so you'll buy another.

"There's no way in h*** I'd put a 0W16 in anything sitting in my driveway."

When 5W20 was becoming more common, that was the comment then as well.

If I have a catastrophic engine failure in a vehicle, I don't think I'll be returning to that brand. Bean counters probably won't like the repercussions of their brand having a reputation for engine failure.

 

[Aseras]

Same here, I run much thicker viscosity because it is too hot most of the year. 5w20 turns to water.

However if you ever go anywhere it gets cooler, or is expected to get a cold snap, you need to adjust accordingly. But 0 weight is absurd except in the plains in the dead of a bad winter and alaska.

 

[PowerJrod]

All very good points. I know that manufacturers go with whatever brings the vehicle to 60k miles or until the end of warranty which I always follow. But after seeing the 0w16 oil weight....I started to question it. The 0W isn't my main concern...it's the 16 running viscosity that gets me. I could totally see using something like 0w30 in the summer for my Ram since the 0W would help protect on cold starts. (supposedly). Obviously I wouldn't really put that in my truck...I say that just as an example.

Even the Toyota manual says "ok to use 0W20, but must be replaced with 0W16 on next oil change" really??? MUST BE? lol.

 

[Aseras]

I always follow manufacture's recommendation regardless of the fact that "Grandpa used 10W30 in everything and never had a problem in 75 years". If it were me, I wouldn't be trying to out-smart Toyota's engineers. I'm sure they anticipated their vehicles being sold in hot climates.

I will farking guarantee you the Highlanders and Land Cruisers in the Sahara and Outback are NOT running 0 weight oil.

For all of their lineup they say 5w20 is ok if 0w16 or wtf ever isn't available. Really any API SN rated oil should work fine in the proper temperature and viscosity zones.

 

[PowerJrod]

I always follow manufacture's recommendation regardless of the fact that "Grandpa used 10W30 in everything and never had a problem in 75 years". If it were me, I wouldn't be trying to out-smart Toyota's engineers. I'm sure they anticipated their vehicles being sold in hot climates.

This is a very good point and the engineers know what they're doing. But here's the question.... are they doing that for them, or for the consumers vehicle long term reliability..? (Rethorical question)

 

[PowerJrod]

I will farking guarantee you the Highlanders and Land Cruisers in the Sahara and Outback are NOT running 0 weight oil.

For all of their lineup they say 5w20 is ok if 0w16 or wtf ever isn't available. Really any API SN rated oil should work fine in the proper temperature and viscosity zones.View attachment 61773

No doubt lol.
Is the temperature reading here on the Celsius scale..?

 

[Aseras]

No doubt lol.
Is the temperature reading here on the Celsius scale..?

Yes. What the entire world uses, but the US.

 

[Aseras]

This is a very good point and the engineers know what they're doing. But here's the question.... are they doing that for them, or for the consumers vehicle long term reliability..? (Rethorical question)

If they cared about long term reliability the car would have much more than a 3yr 36k warranty. Many of the tech improvements are solely done to move parts and claims out past the warranty window and then purposely go to crap.

see https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2011/Nov/1130_fnc.html

"Since its introduction on brake rotors in 2008, FNC has helped reduce warranty claims on brakes by 70 percent. This is significant because in a recent consumer study conducted by GM, four in 10 vehicle owners listed corrosion among the top three bothersome things about their cars. "

 

[HoosierTrooper]

0W-16 is nothing new, it's been used in Japan for approximately 20 years, it's just found it's way to the US in the last couple of years. I always chuckle when I read the "water thin" comments about oil. Water has a viscosity of less than 1 at 40c (104F) while 0W-16 is around 35 and 0W-20 is around 45 so they are both much thicker than water. 0W-16 has an operating temperature of around 6.8 so on those starts it Arizona when the ambient temperature is around 100F the 0W-16 is around 5 times thicker than operating temperature. The same holds true for XW-20 oils. At 100F a viscosity of 45 is also roughly 5 times thicker that their designed operating temp of around 8.6.

People always get fixated on an oils viscosity, but it's only part of the whole package. The synthetic base stocks that 0W oils are formulated with are better than ever as are the additive packages made by Chevron, Infineum, Lubrizol and others. There is no reason to doubt that 0W-16 when used in the appropriate engine it's been tested in won't perform satisfactorily. People have wrung their hands and ran around shouting CAFE! CAFE! and predicting widespread engine failures one day after the warranty runs out since XW-20 oils were introduced 20 years ago, and yet millions and millions of trucks and SUV's drive millions and millions of miles towing large trailers or hauling heavy loads without any issues using XW-20. Not to mention the millions and millions of regular, every day vehicles that have lasted well past their warranty in the last 20 years on the "water thin" oils.

Also, 0 and 5W oils of the same grade are virtually identical in viscosity until the ambient air temps reach the -25F range, and at those temps the 0W is only marginally less thick than the 5W. At "normal" temps there is simply no real difference between 0W and 5W oils, that's one of the most misunderstood concepts concerning oil, people seem to think 0W-20 is thinner than 5W-20 for some reason.

 

[PowerJrod]

But 0W IS thinner than 5W. How can you say it's not???? It's an engineering fact. Besides.... I don't care about the 0W part. It's the 16 that's scary. I'm sure it'll get the vehicle to the warranty mileage just fine....just not past that mileage though.

 

[river rat]

Why do people continue to think they know better than billion dollar companies that spend millions of R&D engineering dollars? Just run what the manufacture suggests.

 

[PowerJrod]

Why do people continue to think they know better than billion dollar companies that spend millions of R&D engineering dollars? Just run what the manufacture suggests.

No one here said anything about knowing more than the engineers, maybe you should read the entire discussion first and the reason for the discussion. Thanks.

 

[PowerJrod]

Why do people continue to think they know better than billion dollar companies that spend millions of R&D engineering dollars? Just run what the manufacture suggests.

Most unproductive comment I've seen so far.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

That’s where people get hung up on the winter ratings, which is what the W stands for, winter not weight. Oils are classified by grade not weight, in other words there is no such thing as a 30 weight or a 20 weight, they’re grades. If someone says they would never use a 0 weight oil, they are correct because there is no such thing. A 0 weight oil implies that it has no viscosity, which is impossible.

W is just a rating system used to classify the oils winter rating based on how it performed in the CCS and MRV tests. If an oil can’t pass the requirements for a 0 rating then it is classified as a 5 or 10 or 15 or 20W, depending on the test results.

The winter ratings are also a range, not just a fixed number. One oil may just barely test under the maximum viscosity for a certain W rating and another may beat it by several hundred cP’s but as long as they fall in the appropriate range for that winter rating that’s all that matters.

0 and 5 W oils track very closely in viscosity until they reach around -25F. Similarly, 5 and 10 W oils are very close to each other until around -13F which is about the maximum cold pumping temperature for 10W oils. After about -13F the 5W will have a slight advantage. A 5W-30 isn’t “thinner” than a 10W-30, it just has the ability to pump at a little lower temperature. Same with 0W and 5W oils.

 

[PowerJrod]

That’s where people get hung up on the winter ratings, which is what the W stands for, winter not weight. Oils are classified by grade not weight, in other words there is no such thing as a 30 weight or a 20 weight, they’re grades. If someone says they would never use a 0 weight oil, they are correct because there is no such thing. A 0 weight oil implies that it has no viscosity, which is impossible.

W is just a rating system used to classify the oils winter rating based on how it performed in the CCS and MRV tests. If an oil can’t pass the requirements for a 0 rating then it is classified as a 5 or 10 or 15 or 20W, depending on the test results.

The winter ratings are also a range, not just a fixed number. One oil may just barely test under the maximum viscosity for a certain W rating and another may beat it by several hundred cP’s but as long as they fall in the appropriate range for that winter rating that’s all that matters.

0 and 5 W oils track very closely in viscosity until they reach around -25F. Similarly, 5 and 10 W oils are very close to each other until around -13F which is about the maximum cold pumping temperature for 10W oils. After about -13F the 5W will have a slight advantage. A 5W-30 isn’t “thinner” than a 10W-30, it just has the ability to pump at a little lower temperature. Same with 0W and 5W oils.

So you're half right on this...let me explain before you throw a tantrum...
Yes the first number is a winter rating, but "the ability to pump at a lower temp" IS the viscosity/thickness. That's what all of the numbers mean. The numbers are the viscosity. (That's taken from Vavolines website). With what you stated...it would be like saying 40w120 gear oil isn't any thicker than 0w20 engine oil....which is obviously not true.

 

[securityguy]

This isn't about the "engineers", but it's about fuel economy and meeting government required numbers. I can assure you that you could use 0W20, 5W20 and even 5W30 with ZERO issues. I live in FL and, regardless of what I own, even 0W20 is unnecessary and 5W20 would be my primary go-to. I maybe wrong, but I don't believe there is a new auto engine on the planet that could not accept 5W30.

 

[securityguy]

Why do people continue to think they know better than billion dollar companies that spend millions of R&D engineering dollars? Just run what the manufacture suggests.

Because we do! They aren't doing it for the "good" of the vehicle. They are requiring it for other reasons that have zero to do with the engineering of the motor. It's all about meeting or exceeding government regulation and trying to squeeze every 0.1 mpg out of the engine. Sorry, but most all people already know this. The sheep on the forum can always run what the manufacturer says