Oil!!!!

[PowerJrod]

Because we do! They aren't doing it for the "good" of the vehicle. They are requiring it for other reasons that have zero to do with the engineering of the motor. It's all about meeting or exceeding government regulation and trying to squeeze every 0.1 mpg out of the engine. Sorry, but most all people already know this. The sheep on the forum can always run what the manufacturer says

Thank youuuuu.
This is the reason why I'm so dumbfounded that my girls new Rav4 takes 0w16 oil...there's no way it can protect the engine for over 60k miles.... especially in a hot as hell environment. Short term.... absolutely, but not in the long run. I know neither her car nor my Rams engine has overheated but that doesn't mean it's getting the full long term protection. But that's the point of the discussion...to see if anyone actually knows about this oil and if they have actual experience with it...

 

[HoosierTrooper]

So you're half right on this...let me explain before you throw a tantrum...
Yes the first number is a winter rating, but "the ability to pump at a lower temp" IS the viscosity/thickness. That's what all of the numbers mean. The numbers are the viscosity. (That's taken from Vavolines website). With what you stated...it would be like saying 40w120 gear oil isn't any thicker than 0w20 engine oil....which is obviously not true.

Throw a tantrum? That seems like a totally uncalled for statement. You're correct, viscosity is what determines an oils ability to pump at low temperature. What I'm trying to point out is that when comparing a 0W-20 to a 5W-20 there's no discernible difference in their viscosity until you get to the lowest temperature that 5W-20 can be pumped at, that's when the 0W-20 is a little less thick. If you look at the PDS at Valvoline or any other company you'll see that the KV at 40C and 100C is virtually the same between the 0W and 5W in a given grade. That's why it's not logical when someone says they won't run a 0W-20 because they live in a hot climate but will run a 5W-20 because they believe the 0W-20 is too thin.

That chart posted earlier in this thread illustrates my point perfectly. It shows that the 0W in every grade is pumpable down to -35 and the 5W until -30, and actually shows the 0W-20 is good to a slightly higher temperature than the 5W-20. It's obvious from that chart, and numerous other ones just like it, that the viscosity difference between 0 and 5 W oils isn't much until you get down to really cold ambient temperatures.

And obviously a 40W-120 gear oil is thicker than a 0W-20 engine oil, just like a 20W-50 is thicker than a 0W-20 oil. How could anyone argue otherwise?

 

[PowerJrod]

Throw a tantrum? That seems like a totally uncalled for statement. You're correct, viscosity is what determines an oils ability to pump at low temperature. What I'm trying to point out is that when comparing a 0W-20 to a 5W-20 there's no discernible difference in their viscosity until you get to the lowest temperature that 5W-20 can be pumped at, that's when the 0W-20 is a little less thick. If you look at the PDS at Valvoline or any other company you'll see that the KV at 40C and 100C is virtually the same between the 0W and 5W in a given grade. That's why it's not logical when someone says they won't run a 0W-20 because they live in a hot climate but will run a 5W-20 because they believe the 0W-20 is too thin.

That chart posted earlier in this thread illustrates my point perfectly. It shows that the 0W in every grade is pumpable down to -35 and the 5W until -30, and actually shows the 0W-20 is good to a slightly higher temperature than the 5W-20. It's obvious from that chart, and numerous other ones just like it, that the viscosity difference between 0 and 5 W oils isn't much until you get down to really cold ambient temperatures.

And obviously a 40W-120 gear oil is thicker than a 0W-20 engine oil, just like a 20W-50 is thicker than a 0W-20 oil. How could anyone argue otherwise?

Lmao! Ok that makes waaaay more sense. The way you worded it earlier was a lot different. Ok we're on the same page. Yes, I have no problem with the 0W. It's the 16 operating viscosity that I have a problem with (being in a hot environment). From what I read; 16 is actually way different from 20 in terms of oil breakdown, sheering, protection, etc...

 

[HoosierTrooper]

This isn't about the "engineers", but it's about fuel economy and meeting government required numbers. I can assure you that you could use 0W20, 5W20 and even 5W30 with ZERO issues. I live in FL and, regardless of what I own, even 0W20 is unnecessary and 5W20 would be my primary go-to. I maybe wrong, but I don't believe there is a new auto engine on the planet that could not accept 5W30.

And 5W-30 was the original CAFE oil that was developed by the oil companies in the 80's when the EPA mandated that the auto manufacturers improve gas mileage. 10W-40 was the most popular oil available then but it couldn't deliver the MPG numbers that the thin 5W-30 could.

You're right about most cars being able to use 5W-30 with the exception of a lot of high performance cars like the Corvette, SRT and others that require 0W-40. Would anyone consider the 0W-40 as being too thin because it's a 0W oil? Also some foreign cars like VW, Audi and others have. turbos that require synthetic 0W-20 that meet their particular specs, those would not work very well at all with conventional 5W-30. Even Honda uses synthetic 0W-20 in their turbos, it would probably be a bad idea to run conventional 5W-30 in them as well.

 

[Rollint]

Same here, I run much thicker viscosity because it is too hot most of the year. 5w20 turns to water.

However if you ever go anywhere it gets cooler, or is expected to get a cold snap, you need to adjust accordingly. But 0 weight is absurd except in the plains in the dead of a bad winter and alaska.

Does it though...? Internal engine temps are basically the same if its 80 degrees out or 105 so I cant see that outside temp making much difference for a modern car.

 

[SD Rebel]

I think Toyota knows what they are doing, they wouldn't spec an oil if it would negatively effect their long term reliability which is a strong reputation they have cultivated for decades.

Also, thickness isn't always the best, especially for tighter tolerance engines. Ford found out a couple of decades ago that 5W-20 not only improved the fuel economy in their modular engines, but improved upper valvetrain lubrication that they back-specced the weight to older engines due to the benefits of higher durability. They wouldn't have done that for just CAFE reasons.

I wouldn't put oil thicker than recommended by Toyota.

 

[PowerJrod]

Does it though...? Internal engine temps are basically the same if its 80 degrees out or 105 so I cant see that outside temp making much difference for a modern car.

Think of it this way....heat is cumulative. If your engine is already sitting out in 100° heat, your engine is already at or close to 100° before starting up...
Then you start the engine and drive, it warms up WAY faster than if it was a cold day.
Your basically adding that initial 100° to the beginning engine run temperature. Hope that makes sense...

 

[HoosierTrooper]

Lmao! Ok that makes waaaay more sense. The way you worded it earlier was a lot different. Ok we're on the same page. Yes, I have no problem with the 0W. It's the 16 operating viscosity that I have a problem with (being in a hot environment). From what I read; 16 is actually way different from 20 in terms of oil breakdown, sheering, protection, etc...

0W-16 is only recommended for a small number of vehicles, and I think it's safe to assume Toyota has done enough testing to determine it will work properly in the engines it's recommended for. The Valvoline version has passed the API test to be certified for the new SP and the ILSAC test for the new GF-6B rating, as have other companies 0W-16 offerings. In my opinion, the fact that an oil has obtained the necessary certifications that the manufacturer requires and has passed the API and ILSAC test protocols is much more important than how someone "feels" about a given oil grade.

If I owned a Toyota that requires 0W-16 I'd use it without thinking twice about it. Would I use it in my Ram or Jeep turbo that requires 5W-30 synthetic? Absolutely not.

 

[PowerJrod]

I think Toyota knows what they are doing, they wouldn't spec an oil if it would negatively effect their long term reliability which is a strong reputation they have cultivated for decades.

Also, thickness isn't always the best, especially for tighter tolerance engines. Ford found out a couple of decades ago that 5W-20 not only improved the fuel economy in their modular engines, but improved upper valvetrain lubrication that they back-specced the weight to older engines due to the benefits of higher durability. They wouldn't have done that for just CAFE reasons.

I wouldn't put oil thicker than recommended by Toyota.

Thats actually a very good point. But let's say for argument that Ram doesn't specify 5w20 for a second. Would you feel comfortable with 0W16 in your truck? It's new, untested oil. (I say untested because there is no engine out there using this oil that has 60k+ miles on it now)

 

[PowerJrod]

0W-16 is only recommended for a small number of vehicles, and I think it's safe to assume Toyota has done enough testing to determine it will work properly in the engines it's recommended for. The Valvoline version has passed the API test to be certified for the new SP and the ILSAC test for the new GF-6B rating, as have other companies 0W-16 offerings. In my opinion, the fact that an oil has obtained the necessary certifications that the manufacturer requires and has passed the API and ILSAC test protocols is much more important than how someone "feels" about a given oil grade.

If I owned a Toyota that requires 0W-16 I'd use it without thinking twice about it. Would I use it in my Ram or Jeep turbo that requires 5W-30 synthetic? Absolutely not.

But there aren't any long term tests on it. We as consumers ARE the long term tests.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

Think of it this way....heat is cumulative. If your engine is already sitting out in 100° heat, your engine is already at or close to 100° before starting up...
Then you start the engine and drive, it warms up WAY faster than if it was a cold day.
Your basically adding that initial 100° to the beginning engine run temperature. Hope that makes sense...

And like I pointed out earlier, oil at 100F is still 5 times thicker than it's normal operating temperature so technically it's too "thick" to be operating at peak efficiency. Also, some additive aren't effective until they are heated to or are very near operating temp.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

But there aren't any long term tests on it. We as consumers ARE the long term tests.

The API and ILSAC testing protocol has standards on viscosity retention, deposit control, volatility and other factors that an oil has to meet before being certified. They are very stringent tests because that's what protects the consumer by assuring them that what the oil companies are selling will work as intended. And I have no doubt Toyota conducted long term testing as well, it would be foolish to think they didn't.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

It's new, untested oil. (I say untested because there is no engine out there using this oil that has 60k+ miles on it now)

20 years use in Japan isn't exactly new and untested is it?

 

[J-Cooz]

Bingo. Has anyone actually watched their old temps? I don't know about you guys but my EcoDiesel runs from about 98-102 degrees oil temp regardless of outside air temperature (and it's been hot as hell lately)

I would just run what they recommend. Engine tolerances are a lot tighter than the oil days. I know with the Hemis the oil spec is for the variable valve timing. I remember reading about it during one of the SRT chat sessions (engineers answer questions).

Does it though...? Internal engine temps are basically the same if its 80 degrees out or 105 so I cant see that outside temp making much difference for a modern car.

 

[PowerJrod]

20 years use in Japan isn't exactly new and untested is it?

Idk, I've heard the same thing but when I did some digging...I found a reference that thid oil was developed for motorcycles and lawnmowers....kind of like walmarts supertech oil. But who here has seen a car from Japan with a ton of miles on it after using 0W16 oil? Show of hands anyone? I'm just saying that marketing hype and business manufacturering isn't all rainbows and sunshine, claims are stretched in the pursuit of business, profits and meeting EPA demands. While under warranty, of course I'd use what they specify but this is more of a discussion regarding the use of certain oils AFTER warranty period.

 

[SD Rebel]

Thats actually a very good point. But let's say for argument that Ram doesn't specify 5w20 for a second. Would you feel comfortable with 0W16 in your truck? It's new, untested oil. (I say untested because there is no engine out there using this oil that has 60k+ miles on it now)

No way would I feel comfortable with that weight untested in my truck. But I have a feeling Toyota did the testing for it's application, I would have zero reservations if that's what they wanted me to use in my new vehicle they tested it for.

 

[PowerJrod]

No way would I feel comfortable with that weight untested in my truck. But I have a feeling Toyota did the testing for it's application, I would have zero reservations if that's what they wanted me to use in my new vehicle they tested it for.

Lol I know the feeling. I think the main difference here is that theres verified proof of testing and results available for us to review on 5W20, 5W30, etc oils vs 0W16 which I can only find limited info on. Guess we'll have to wait until 50k or 60k to see the end results. I'll report back in 5 years lol.

 

[SD Rebel]

Lol I know the feeling. I think the main difference here is that theres verified proof of testing and results available for us to review on 5W20, 5W30, etc oils vs 0W16 which I can only find limited info on. Guess we'll have to wait until 50k or 60k to see the end results. I'll report back in 5 years lol.

Lol, we are all guinea pigs in some ways right

Though the engine is really a big deal, but I can't see Toyota screwing that up or not at least coming to bat for people should it be an issue down the road.

When we got a new 2001 Honda Civic, I was surprised it used 5W-20, never seen oil that thin before. I remember how low viscosity it was. I could barely pull the dipstick out before drops would come off. I thought, wow, that's some thin oil! That engine is probably close to 300,000 miles now with another owner.

 

[Aseras]

Does it though...? Internal engine temps are basically the same if its 80 degrees out or 105 so I cant see that outside temp making much difference for a modern car.

Once warmed up they are. 20w50 would be sludge in the winter. But you could run it in FL year round practically. Grease is a liquid at high temps and a solid or semisolid at room temp. Same with Chocolate. Some of the specs are to make sure the oil can flow when its cold started and reach areas because of the thinness of the oil it wouldn't normal penetrate. And in some ways that back fires. I doubt you will ever see a turbo charged car run a 0 weight oil. It will leak right out and cook off and coke up.

If dino fueled cars were going to be around another 50 years, I bet you'd start to see separate oiling systems just like you see 3 and 4 separate cooling systems in some hybrids now.

Everything is going to go electric. It is inevitable and the ONLY thing hold it back is infrastructure and Battery capacity and charging speed. When you can get 500 miles of range in minute or two at a charger for about the price of a tank of gas, kiss ICE's goodbye.

 

[PowerJrod]

Once warmed up they are. 20w50 would be sludge in the winter. But you could run it in FL year round practically. Grease is a liquid at high temps and a solid or semisolid at room temp. Same with Chocolate. Some of the specs are to make sure the oil can flow when its cold started and reach areas because of the thinness of the oil it wouldn't normal penetrate. And in some ways that back fires. I doubt you will ever see a turbo charged car run a 0 weight oil. It will leak right out and cook off and coke up.

If dino fueled cars were going to be around another 50 years, I bet you'd start to see separate oiling systems just like you see 3 and 4 separate cooling systems in some hybrids now.

Everything is going to go electric. It is inevitable and the ONLY thing hold it back is infrastructure and Battery capacity and charging speed. When you can get 500 miles of range in minute or two at a charger for about the price of a tank of gas, kiss ICE's goodbye.

Lol it's funny you mention that, my 2011 VW CC had the 2.0 TSI turbo engine with 0W40 oil...