No Rebel TR/TRX At Detroit

[Vegas_Sirk]

I thought the rumors said that info would be out at Detroit Auto Show, but have yet to see anything. My guess is that they don't want to steal the thunder from the HD trucks.

 

[devildodge]

I thought the rumors said that info would be out at Detroit Auto Show, but have yet to see anything. My guess is that they don't want to steal the thunder from the HD trucks.

All of the rumors I heard specifically said that it wouldn't be.

 

[dannydyn]

NYIAS perhaps then?

 

[Vegas_Sirk]

All of the rumors I heard specifically said that it wouldn't be.

Any idea of when then?

 

[devildodge]

Any idea of when then?

Ok. The rumor about the NAIAS was from a GM authority article if I remember correctly and was immediately debunked as fake news.

"The 2021 Ram 1500 Rebel TRX will start production in the third-quarter of 2020 at the Sterling Heights Assembly Plant in Sterling Heights, Michigan."

That was the last info I can remember.

So I would guess maybe at the new Summer NAIAS in 2020.

There is rumor of a street performance Ram coming. My guess is a concept of that will debut before the Production ready TR/TRX.

There are so many shows I get them all confused.

I have no idea, but this is my guess.

We haven't heard much from @VoiceOfReason lately and @redriderbob has been busy with the HD reveal.

Maybe they will drop in and give some thought.

 

[redriderbob]

According to my sources TR is up in the air... TRX is still scheduled to make its appearance in 2021 as a 2022 model.

 

[Vegas_Sirk]

According to my sources TR is up in the air... TRX is still scheduled to make its appearance in 2021 as a 2022 model.

That would be a bummer, unless they can offer the TRX at pricing similar to a Raptor, but I was under the impression it would be $80K plus. As a TR would be enough for my needs.

 

[ChadT]

Ok. The rumor about the NAIAS was from a GM authority article if I remember correctly and was immediately debunked as fake news.

"The 2021 Ram 1500 Rebel TRX will start production in the third-quarter of 2020 at the Sterling Heights Assembly Plant in Sterling Heights, Michigan."

That was the last info I can remember.

So I would guess maybe at the new Summer NAIAS in 2020.

There is rumor of a street performance Ram coming. My guess is a concept of that will debut before the Production ready TR/TRX.

There are so many shows I get them all confused.

I have no idea, but this is my guess.

We haven't heard much from @VoiceOfReason lately and @redriderbob has been busy with the HD reveal.

Maybe they will drop in and give some thought.

Hmm. Street performance Ram.
So i'm going to guess, I'm wondering if they had a hard time with the stability of a fullblown 707hp hellcat Ram on a lift with offroad tires?

I'm guessing the "hellcat Ram" might get the top of the line HP figures, along with tires and shocks to keep it on the ground.
I'm guessing the Ram Rebel TR, TR gets a bigger N/A V8, and the TRX, same deal with a single turbo?

Not sure if you can comment, but part of me wonders if the traction on A/T tires, the height, the lift, the center of gravity? I think the 707hp gives actual cars, performance cars, problems. I think it's a bridge too far for the realities of a truck.

I LOVE my Rebel, but on my lottery list? Would love a TRX one day.
I think putting the eco-toot in a "lifestyle truck" as a means of selling more eco-toots to other ford drivers because, "Well it's in the raptor and the Ford GT" and making it the only option is something Ford should be competitively punished for doing.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[devildodge]

Hmm. Street performance Ram.
So i'm going to guess, I'm wondering if they had a hard time with the stability of a fullblown 707hp hellcat Ram on a lift with offroad tires?

The TRX is still full go with a Hellcat. The TR is up in the air( the rumored 426 Hemi) that is what @redriderbob just said in the post above.

The street performance truck isn't being built becausethe TRX was failing...it is because DODGE Trucks have dominated that segment a few times...LiL Red Express, SRT-10..you get the drift.

Now it is RAM trucks turn.

The TRX will be made as an offroad Hellcat Powered dominator.

The Street performance truck will be based like the Rumblebee concept or quicksilver concept...which can be seen in our 4th Gen section.

So all that to say again whawhat @redriderbob just said.

TRX hellcat on it's way
TR up in th the air
Street performance truck...no specifics...no timeline...but I would bet it is coming.

 

[VoiceOfReason]

I don’t like it. The turbo six may be sufficient for some needs, but a truck with a 426 Hemi is what people want.
The only upside I can imagine with this news is that if there is no TR, the TRX is going to have to be price competitive with the Raptor. An Autotrader.com search shows you can buy a new Trackhawk for under $80,000. I can’t help but think that the lukewarm reception has given FCA pause on the TR.
I would drop the price of the base Rebel, make the TR price competitive with the Raptor, and the TRX Trackhawk/Demon pricing, but I do not have the same market insight as the forces that be at FCA.
I hope this means the TRX will come down from the lofty $85,000+ it was rumored to start, but not having an even Raptor competitor in that price range causes me concern and the delay of another year to 2021 is a significant disappointment. That’s roughly five years from concept and yields even more time to the Raptor.

 

[edgarrian]

If they even want to get in the market. One would have to look at the numbers. Do the Raptors sit for a very long time. Im sure demographic plays a huge roll in that as well. Its seems a bit niche. How has ram rebels sales faired during the last few years. Maybe there is some support for this truck.

 

[VoiceOfReason]

If they even want to get in the market. One would have to look at the numbers. Do the Raptors sit for a very long time. Im sure demographic plays a huge roll in that as well. Its seems a bit niche. How has ram rebels sales faired during the last few years. Maybe there is some support for this truck.

From what I understand, Raptors don’t last long on lots and thought I saw that at one point, Rebel was the best selling trim, but I have no insight to the reliability of that claim.

 

[VoiceOfReason]

According to my sources TR is up in the air... TRX is still scheduled to make its appearance in 2021 as a 2022 model.

What changed and when?
The prevailing rumor (and the “q3 2020” screen shot leak) was a 2021 model year and a 2020 production release. The word “still” does not normally apply to a change in information, especially something as significant as a one year further delay. 2021 as a 2022 model year year vehicle is almost five years from concept to production, when conventional wisdom puts the average at 18-24 months. Granted, the DS/DT conversion would necessarily have lengthened that gestation, but 4 1/2 to 5 years?
Can you confirm the date numbers?

 

[edgarrian]

From what I understand, Raptors don’t last long on lots and thought I saw that at one point, Rebel was the best selling trim, but I have no insight to the reliability of that claim.

Rebel is the best selling trim. Well I guess that would make sense since 19HK system is not in the ordering process anymore. Sounds as if its just the 9 speaker Alpine system. One would think if the Rebel was this hot they would want to build off the success of it. I have high school friend that has a new Raptor on the lot I should ask him today if its there or not. Its been a week or two so Id be interested how long a 75k truck sits

 

[ChadT]

Rebel is the best selling trim. Well I guess that would make sense since 19HK system is not in the ordering process anymore. Sounds as if its just the 9 speaker Alpine system. One would think if the Rebel was this hot they would want to build off the success of it. I have high school friend that has a new Raptor on the lot I should ask him today if its there or not. Its been a week or two so Id be interested how long a 75k truck sits

I'll be interested to see what happens when the Baja truck segment gets competition!
I wonder what the take-rate will be on an ecoboost if there's a Rebel TRX and a Raptor V8 option
(Assuming the V8s are not watered down purposely to move turbo 6s of course).

The Ford faithful promised everyone that in a few years
- everyone would have an aluminum bed
- everyone was going to have a turbo 6
- midsize trucks are dead as a segment
- displacement is a dead, small displacement 6s are the best.
- the ecoboost in the raptor is allll the engine anyone could ever want.

Years later.
- No one else has an aluminum bed.
- We aren't seeing a mass migration to turbo 6s in fullsize trucks
- Now they're talking absout 7L V8s coming to their half tons, INCLUDING THE RAPTOR if rumors are to be believed, as well as the mustang.
- Ford is now making a Ranger. Oops I guess people DID want midsize trucks.

Amazing how when 1 fanbase of 1 truck maker buys totally into what a company had to do in compliance to the EPA, everyone was told the above would happen.
In 2019, it's yet to materialize.
I would be interested to see if the baja-truck segment ends up dominated by V8 sales by 2022.

 

[VoiceOfReason]

I'll be interested to see what happens when the Baja truck segment gets competition!
I wonder what the take-rate will be on an ecoboost if there's a Rebel TRX and a Raptor V8 option
(Assuming the V8s are not watered down purposely to move turbo 6s of course).

The Ford faithful promised everyone that in a few years
- everyone would have an aluminum bed
- everyone was going to have a turbo 6
- midsize trucks are dead as a segment
- displacement is a dead, small displacement 6s are the best.
- the ecoboost in the raptor is allll the engine anyone could ever want.

Years later.
- No one else has an aluminum bed.
- We aren't seeing a mass migration to turbo 6s in fullsize trucks
- Now they're talking absout 7L V8s coming to their half tons, INCLUDING THE RAPTOR if rumors are to be believed, as well as the mustang.
- Ford is now making a Ranger. Oops I guess people DID want midsize trucks.

Amazing how when 1 fanbase of 1 truck maker buys totally into what a company had to do in compliance to the EPA, everyone was told the above would happen.
In 2019, it's yet to materialize.
I would be interested to see if the baja-truck segment ends up dominated by V8 sales by 2022.

Very well said.
People keep forgetting - car companies are going to make the things people actually buy. The rest of those industry predictions be damned. People like big burly engines. The percentage of people buying electric cars is minuscule, always has been. They are a very vocal, if not vociferous, minority, but also an extreme minority - on the order of less than 4% of the new car buying public.
That will change as mild hybrids start skewing the numbers, but the number of new vehicles purchased whose primary source of propulsion is electric with the only engine used for charging purposes will remain small for the foreseeable future.

People who enjoy cars, generally enjoy engines. People who don’t enjoy cars don’t generally care much about the technical details and therefore aren’t interested in technological fads.
I’ll pay attention when electric primary drives cars maintain more than 5% of new cars sales, but I won’t take them seriously until they maintain better than 10% and won’t lose interest until they do better than 25%.
The relatively recent versions have been around for 20 years and at under 4% people are predicting they will take over the world.
I’m not worried about it.

 

[NDanecker]

If the TR (700+HP street version of the RAM) was available I'd certainly have gotten one. Instead I purchased a 18 TrackHawk thinking this would work until the TR or TRX gets released as a truck fits my lifestyle much better (tows more, carriers more, etc). TrackHawk was nice, filled my speed urge but wasn't a daily-driver for me.

So - I have been watching the used market and got scared - seriously scared. My 18 had a MSRP of $97. Purchased new for $86. Sold 5 months later with 4,900 miles in mint condition (all stock not a scratch on it) for $71. Dealer put it on their lot for $82. Week later bumped it down to $79. About another week later bumped it down to $77. Car is still sitting on their lot for $77 almost 1 1/2 months later. I feel bad for the guys that paid over sticker for their TrackHawks in early 18 and now they are worth 10's of thousands less. My eye opener was when the dealers started offering leases on TrackHawks using a 40 - 45% residual value after 24 or 36 months. WOW - that is NUTS!

Point is - once the demand is gone and the few hardcore fans have these specialty vehicles they will decrease in value significantly both in the new and used market. With that said I am concerned (and maybe FCA) that the market is just not there for a high horsepower $90k+ truck. Cars are different (Demon, Mustangs, etc) and have a much larger following group.

 

[VoiceOfReason]

If the TR (700+HP street version of the RAM) was available I'd certainly have gotten one. Instead I purchased a 18 TrackHawk thinking this would work until the TR or TRX gets released as a truck fits my lifestyle much better (tows more, carriers more, etc). TrackHawk was nice, filled my speed urge but wasn't a daily-driver for me.

So - I have been watching the used market and got scared - seriously scared. My 18 had a MSRP of $97. Purchased new for $86. Sold 5 months later with 4,900 miles in mint condition (all stock not a scratch on it) for $71. Dealer put it on their lot for $82. Week later bumped it down to $79. About another week later bumped it down to $77. Car is still sitting on their lot for $77 almost 1 1/2 months later. I feel bad for the guys that paid over sticker for their TrackHawks in early 18 and now they are worth 10's of thousands less. My eye opener was when the dealers started offering leases on TrackHawks using a 40 - 45% residual value after 24 or 36 months. WOW - that is NUTS!

Point is - once the demand is gone and the few hardcore fans have these specialty vehicles they will decrease in value significantly both in the new and used market. With that said I am concerned (and maybe FCA) that the market is just not there for a high horsepower $90k+ truck. Cars are different (Demon, Mustangs, etc) and have a much larger following group.

Good points, but the Raptor sales have already established the demand for the truck market. Early adopters usually take a bath in their losses, “pioneers perish, settlers flourish”.
FCA can and will charge an outrageous price for the TRX and they will sell a lot of them. When sales slow, the dealers can drop the price. I do think the Trackhawk lesson is clear though. It is a great vehicle and 0-60 seconds to 0-60 seconds, it is hands down the best SUV bargain to be had, but I don’t think they converted customers from other high end brands at the rate expected. With the TRX, the dynamic is different, but the lesson may be to not price themselves out of their target market. I wonder if the Trackhawk price situation means the TRX price will come down to the point where the TR just got squeezed out from between TRX and base Rebel.
I was surprised to see how close the Raptor and the Rebel are on price. Base and fully loaded, if I recall they are only a few thousand apart from each other. They may be making the determination that they can only ask so much above the base Rebel for a TR and to go significantly above that may price the TRX out of the range of their target demographic.

 

[ChadT]

Very well said.
People keep forgetting - car companies are going to make the things people actually buy. The rest of those industry predictions be damned. People like big burly engines. The percentage of people buying electric cars is minuscule, always has been. They are a very vocal, if not vociferous, minority, but also an extreme minority - on the order of less than 4% of the new car buying public.
That will change as mild hybrids start skewing the numbers, but the number of new vehicles purchased whose primary source of propulsion is electric with the only engine used for charging purposes will remain small for the foreseeable future.

People who enjoy cars, generally enjoy engines. People who don’t enjoy cars don’t generally care much about the technical details and therefore aren’t interested in technological fads.
I’ll pay attention when electric primary drives cars maintain more than 5% of new cars sales, but I won’t take them seriously until they maintain better than 10% and won’t lose interest until they do better than 25%.
The relatively recent versions have been around for 20 years and at under 4% people are predicting they will take over the world.
I’m not worried about it.

Reminds me of this article!
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a25470039/ev-future/

it's amazing right, how the EV proponents have been predicting the death of ICE for quite a while now.
They're promising battery tech breakthroughs that may not exist as well, as if we can snap our fingers and suddenly make it so.

 

[ChadT]

Good points, but the Raptor sales have already established the demand for the truck market. Early adopters usually take a bath in their losses, “pioneers perish, settlers flourish”.
FCA can and will charge an outrageous price for the TRX and they will sell a lot of them. When sales slow, the dealers can drop the price. I do think the Trackhawk lesson is clear though. It is a great vehicle and 0-60 seconds to 0-60 seconds, it is hands down the best SUV bargain to be had, but I don’t think they converted customers from other high end brands at the rate expected. With the TRX, the dynamic is different, but the lesson may be to not price themselves out of their target market. I wonder if the Trackhawk price situation means the TRX price will come down to the point where the TR just got squeezed out from between TRX and base Rebel.
I was surprised to see how close the Raptor and the Rebel are on price. Base and fully loaded, if I recall they are only a few thousand apart from each other. They may be making the determination that they can only ask so much above the base Rebel for a TR and to go significantly above that may price the TRX out of the range of their target demographic.

A $90,000 halfton that will end up with a payload around 1,000lbs, if that. (Baja shocks and component weight).
I honestly hope they can price it with the raptor. I think at a raptor price it's probably a superior vehicle if they get the offroad do-dads right.
A raptor, with a steel bed floor, AND a hellcat V8 , Ram's interior, rebel aesthetics.
That's one heck of a truck.
At $90k, I think they will sell them, but I do think the market will be smaller.

I think the raptor, which allegedly starts around a Rebel's midrange price, but in my experience ends up on lots at about $70k+, is juust about the "high but people can still buy it" point in the market for trucks.

Here's my thinking
The hellcats and demons end up being "less expensive" than the $125,000 performance cars.
But at $80k+, A halfton is suddenly in the "2500HD diesel with cowboy leather" price tier.

While I think it is probable that it will end up at $90k, I think if they COULD sell it priced with the Raptor, I think the raptor will lose some buyers. We have one who bought a rebel on this very board!
One of the cited reasons: Missed the V8.

Edit: Saw your post above where you firstly stated they should try to price the TRX with the raptor.
Big yep there, I think anyway.
While I think Ford makes good, albeit over-rated trucks, I also think pricing the TRX too far over the raptor may have people buying the "proven" Ford Raptor that in consumer's minds, has been out for 10 years.