New Video on 5.7 Hemi Lifter Failure - Interesting bit of information

[homedad]

So what's the oil change interval by time if I do a lot of idling. I work out of my truck and probably idle it 3 hours per week.
And does anyone know a long extended warranty. Mine is ending and all I see are 80k. I hear that these lifter issues show up at about 120k.

 

[silver billet]

So what's the oil change interval by time if I do a lot of idling. I work out of my truck and probably idle it 3 hours per week.
And does anyone know a long extended warranty. Mine is ending and all I see are 80k. I hear that these lifter issues show up at about 120k.

I believe it is 320 hours for hemis that idle a lot like in cop cars. Got that from a video somewhere where the guy says he was a former FCA mechanic. I would double check with dealer though.

 

[2020RAMLTD5.7]

Welp,I guess I'm screwed,lol! I open her open quite a few times, entering, merging, etc, each time on the highway, the sound she makes while the pedal is mashed to the floor is music to my ears,plus idling, plus turning the mds off all the time! I do keep up with the oil changes,even a little early. Keep my fingers !

 

[RAM Patriot]

Based on the information in these videos the engineers designed the HEMI motors to lubricate the lifters, by pressurizing the lifter bores when MDS is deployed. The solenoid controls the oil pressure to these bores when activated. So allowing your engine to to go into MDS mode seems beneficial to me not only for gas mileage but also for lifter lubrication.

The second tip I gleaned was making sure that you use the proper certified SAE 5W-20 engine oil. That you change the oil at the recommended intervals because the viscosity of your oil breaks down over time and will cause the lifters to fail and possibly the check ball on the lifter to get sludge build up and not be able to pressurize the lifter bore galley.

The third tip was to not allow your HEMI motor to have excessive idle times because the engine will not lubricate the lifters properly and the engine will not deploy MDS mode when the truck is idling.

 

[silver billet]

Based on the information in these videos the engineers designed the HEMI motors to lubricate the lifters, by pressurizing the lifter bores when MDS is deployed. The solenoid controls the oil pressure to these bores when activated. So allowing your engine to to go into MDS mode seems beneficial to me not only for gas mileage but also for lifter lubrication.

The second tip I gleaned was making sure that you use the proper certified SAE 5W-20 engine oil. That you change the oil at the recommended intervals because the viscosity of your oil breaks down over time and will cause the lifters to fail and possibly the check ball on the lifter to get sludge build up and not be able to pressurize the lifter bore galley.

The third tip was to not allow your HEMI motor to have excessive idle times because the engine will not lubricate the lifters properly and the engine will not deploy MDS mode when the truck is idling.

That's one theory, yes, but it doesn't make sense to me. Keep in mind that if you are towing using TH, or towing any signifcant weight, MDS will not engage. So FCA designed an engine that starves itself of oil during towing for hours on end?? Not likely.

More likely is that guys who idle a lot (cops) aren't getting their oil changed frequently enough, that kind of duty cycle is based off of hours running instead of mileage. Dirty oil then gets into the needle bearings of the lifters and seizes them up. The recommended hourly interval is 320 hours, which if a car is running 24/7 is about 2 weeks. I doubt that happens in most cop cars, they get abused.

FCA admitted they had some bad lifters from their vendors, between 2009 and 2014, so engines in that time period are more suseptible to lifter failure.

Also redline 5w-30 has been proven to quiet the hemi tick, many owners on another forum report this. Redline is a thicker oil on top of having high amounts of moly. So Redline 5w-30 is closer to most oil's 5w-40.

I will not run 5w-20 in my truck unless its redline. It seems to run quieter on it, though I don't actually have the hemi tick. Each should follow their own gut feeling with this as obviously it will void your warranty since redline does not have the proper spec. But I go by my ears and the many owner reports, I'm not going to trash my engine for half its life just for the sake of a warranty, I'll take my chances with the "hemi honey" instead and run the good stuff right from the second oil change. So far so good!

I also get used oil analysis reports from Blackstone, hopefully they can tell me if/when something goes wrong before the engine dies. The first report is excellent and they told me to stretch the oil out even further (it was about 12000 KM).

 

[RAM Patriot]

That's one theory, yes, but it doesn't make sense to me. Keep in mind that if you are towing using TH, or towing any signifcant weight, MDS will not engage. So FCA designed an engine that starves itself of oil during towing for hours on end?? Not likely.

More likely is that guys who idle a lot (cops) aren't getting their oil changed frequently enough, that kind of duty cycle is based off of hours running instead of mileage. Dirty oil then gets into the needle bearings of the lifters and seizes them up. The recommended hourly interval is 320 hours, which if a car is running 24/7 is about 2 weeks. I doubt that happens in most cop cars, they get abused.

FCA admitted they had some bad lifters from their vendors, between 2009 and 2014, so engines in that time period are more suseptible to lifter failure.

Also redline 5w-30 has been proven to quiet the hemi tick, many owners on another forum report this. Redline is a thicker oil on top of having high amounts of moly. So Redline 5w-30 is closer to most oil's 5w-40.

I will not run 5w-20 in my truck unless its redline. It seems to run quieter on it, though I don't actually have the hemi tick. Each should follow their own gut feeling with this as obviously it will void your warranty since redline does not have the proper spec. But I go by my ears and the many owner reports, I'm not going to trash my engine for half its life just for the sake of a warranty, I'll take my chances with the "hemi honey" instead and run the good stuff right from the second oil change. So far so good!

I also get used oil analysis reports from Blackstone, hopefully they can tell me if/when something goes wrong before the engine dies. The first report is excellent and they told me to stretch the oil out even further (it was about 12000 KM).

Actually it does make sense to me, when you are towing you are running a higher RPM on the motor, so the oil is being moved around the engine compartment more efficiently. Therefore no need to engage MDS or any other means of lubricating the lifters and pistons.

Remember, MDS only engages at low RPM's except for idle.

As for oil, I agree with you that running any of the quality synthetic motor oils is going to improve the lubrication and viscosity of the oil and will not break down as quickly from the heat. (unless you are running a turbo, which we are not). I like to add Lucas Synthetic to my oil after a 1,000 miles from the oil change.

Using any of these should improve the engine wear & tear and quiet down the HEMI tick.

• AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil
• Castrol Edge with Titanium Fluid Strength Technology
• Lucas Synthetic
• Mobil 1 Extended Performance
• Pennzoil Ultra
• Petro-Canada Supreme Synthetic
• Quaker State Ultimate Durability
• Red Line High Performance Motor Oil
• Royal Purple High Performance Motor Oil
• Valvoline SynPower Full Synthetic Motor Oil

 

[silver billet]

Actually it does make sense to me, when you are towing you are running a higher RPM on the motor, so the oil is being moved around the engine compartment more efficiently. Therefore no need to engage MDS or any other means of lubricating the lifters and pistons.

Remember, MDS only engages at low RPM's except for idle.

As for oil, I agree with you that running any of the quality synthetic motor oils is going to improve the lubrication and viscosity of the oil and will not break down as quickly from the heat. (unless you are running a turbo, which we are not). I like to add Lucas Synthetic to my oil after a 1,000 miles from the oil change.

Using any of these should improve the engine wear & tear and quiet down the HEMI tick.

• AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil
• Castrol Edge with Titanium Fluid Strength Technology
• Lucas Synthetic
• Mobil 1 Extended Performance
• Pennzoil Ultra
• Petro-Canada Supreme Synthetic
• Quaker State Ultimate Durability
• Red Line High Performance Motor Oil
• Royal Purple High Performance Motor Oil
• Valvoline SynPower Full Synthetic Motor Oil

It doesn't move the oil around at high rpms though. This isn't a push mower where oil is cupped up and flung around. They actually install baffles in the oil pan to prevent oil from being flung around from off the cam etc as "bad things happen". Those lifters are oiled purely from the pressurized oil system, as long as you have proper oil pressure you're fine.

I also disagree with your oil list, Reline and 1 or two others are the only ones that seem to work, high amounts of moly. There is tons of data on this, I'm not sucking it out of my thumb. But I'm not going to argue about it either, so, ...

 

[Buz]

Actually it does make sense to me, when you are towing you are running a higher RPM on the motor, so the oil is being moved around the engine compartment more efficiently. Therefore no need to engage MDS or any other means of lubricating the lifters and pistons.

What if you're towing an 8,500lb airstream in your 3.21 hemi across the desert southwest, Texas or Florda where you'd be spinning under 2k RPM's for hours?

 

[silver billet]

What if you're towing an 8,500lb airstream in your 3.21 hemi across the desert southwest, Texas or Florda where you'd be spinning under 2k RPM's for hours?

Exactly. That theory doesn't work for me. If you needed to rev high (past 2000 rpms) to get proper oiling when MDS isn't active, then FCA would have built that into the system so that it's not possible to damage our engine.

They have safetys built into these things all over the place. No way are they going to allow us to change a setting (disable MDS) and starve the engine of oil. There is something else going on (IMHO, dirty oil).

 

[RAM Patriot]

Exactly. That theory doesn't work for me. If you needed to rev high (past 2000 rpms) to get proper oiling when MDS isn't active, then FCA would have built that into the system so that it's not possible to damage our engine.

They have safetys built into these things all over the place. No way are they going to allow us to change a setting (disable MDS) and starve the engine of oil. There is something else going on (IMHO, dirty oil).

Remember that we have VVT and MDS with a variable displacement oil pump with an actuator set up.

A variable displacement oil pump system is more than just a pump.

Six major components play an active role in calculating the performance of the pump.

• Oil

Our HEMI Engines know what the viscosity and flow characteristics should be because that information has been programmed into the ECM. They know if someone used 10W-30 instead of 5W-20 because it affects how the pump performs.

The wrong oil can set off codes because the ECM knows what the oil pressure should be for a given engine speed and coolant temperature. If the numbers do not match, it will set a code and put the engine into a reduced power mode.

• Pump

Almost every variable displacement oil pump application is mounted on the crankshaft.

Variable displacement pumps are “gerotor” designs. Gerotor pumps have trochoid gears that allow for smooth operation, low noise and excellent suction. The centrically seated drive gear drives an external eccentrically seated annular gear. The result of which is cavities inside the pump compress and enlarge to create the suction and feed effect.

The inner rotor sits on the crankshaft and drives the outer rotor. Since the inner and outer rotors have different rotating axes, more space is created on the suction side due to the rotating motion. The oil is drawn in and transported to the pressure side. On the pressure side, the space between the gears’ teeth becomes smaller again, and oil is forced into the oil circuit under pressure.



A variable displacement oil pump changes the rotating axis of the outer gear. To achieve this, the gears of the inner rotor are replaced with variable-length vanes. The outer gear pivots on an axis; opposite the pivot is an electronic actuator. On mechanical versions, a spring replaces the actuator and the opposite side of the housing has oil or a piston that pushes against the spring to regulate pressure.

• Actuator

Most variable displacement oil pumps use an electric solenoid to change the axis and eccentricity of the pump housing, and position is determined by the ECM. Changing the geometry of the housing changes the amount of pressure and volume of the pump. Most actuators use a pulse width modulated signal to control the position of the actuator, and some scan tools can display the PID for the actuator position.

• Oil Pressure Sensor(s)

Oil pressure sensors on most variable displacement oil pump systems are positioned in the oil galley between the main bearings and the head. Pressure sensors measure the overall pressure in the system, not just the pressure produced by the pump. If there are any problems like restrictions or internal leaks, the sensors will show incorrect readings, to solve these problems before replacing the pump.

• Engine Oil Temperature

On most vehicles, the oil temperature is calculated using various sensor inputs, not a direct sensor. The engine oil temperature calculation is a range of values, with a low value indicating when the oil temperature is low and a high value when the oil temperature is high. On vehicles with variable displacement oil pumps, oil temperature plays a critical role in calculating the actuator’s position during cold start up.

• ECM

The ECM looks at data including engine coolant temperature, engine load, calculated oil temperature and other monitors to determine the position of the oil pump actuator and oil pressure. If the system detects an overheating condition or a problem with one or more of the inputs, it may put the system into a reduced power mode to prevent damage.

Depending on the demand of the engine and the pressure readings this will also change with the RPM's of the engine.

 

[silver billet]

Remember that we have VVT and MDS with a variable displacement oil pump with an actuator set up.

A variable displacement oil pump system is more than just a pump.

Six major components play an active role in calculating the performance of the pump.

• Oil

Our HEMI Engines know what the viscosity and flow characteristics should be because that information has been programmed into the ECM. They know if someone used 10W-30 instead of 5W-20 because it affects how the pump performs.

The wrong oil can set off codes because the ECM knows what the oil pressure should be for a given engine speed and coolant temperature. If the numbers do not match, it will set a code and put the engine into a reduced power mode.

• Pump

Almost every variable displacement oil pump application is mounted on the crankshaft.

Variable displacement pumps are “gerotor” designs. Gerotor pumps have trochoid gears that allow for smooth operation, low noise and excellent suction. The centrically seated drive gear drives an external eccentrically seated annular gear. The result of which is cavities inside the pump compress and enlarge to create the suction and feed effect.

The inner rotor sits on the crankshaft and drives the outer rotor. Since the inner and outer rotors have different rotating axes, more space is created on the suction side due to the rotating motion. The oil is drawn in and transported to the pressure side. On the pressure side, the space between the gears’ teeth becomes smaller again, and oil is forced into the oil circuit under pressure.

View attachment 87925

A variable displacement oil pump changes the rotating axis of the outer gear. To achieve this, the gears of the inner rotor are replaced with variable-length vanes. The outer gear pivots on an axis; opposite the pivot is an electronic actuator. On mechanical versions, a spring replaces the actuator and the opposite side of the housing has oil or a piston that pushes against the spring to regulate pressure.

• Actuator

Most variable displacement oil pumps use an electric solenoid to change the axis and eccentricity of the pump housing, and position is determined by the ECM. Changing the geometry of the housing changes the amount of pressure and volume of the pump. Most actuators use a pulse width modulated signal to control the position of the actuator, and some scan tools can display the PID for the actuator position.

• Oil Pressure Sensor(s)

Oil pressure sensors on most variable displacement oil pump systems are positioned in the oil galley between the main bearings and the head. Pressure sensors measure the overall pressure in the system, not just the pressure produced by the pump. If there are any problems like restrictions or internal leaks, the sensors will show incorrect readings, to solve these problems before replacing the pump.

• Engine Oil Temperature

On most vehicles, the oil temperature is calculated using various sensor inputs, not a direct sensor. The engine oil temperature calculation is a range of values, with a low value indicating when the oil temperature is low and a high value when the oil temperature is high. On vehicles with variable displacement oil pumps, oil temperature plays a critical role in calculating the actuator’s position during cold start up.

• ECM

The ECM looks at data including engine coolant temperature, engine load, calculated oil temperature and other monitors to determine the position of the oil pump actuator and oil pressure. If the system detects an overheating condition or a problem with one or more of the inputs, it may put the system into a reduced power mode to prevent damage.

Depending on the demand of the engine and the pressure readings this will also change with the RPM's of the engine.

None of that changes the argument in any way; FCA would not build an engine that doesn't lubricate itself properly. How long do you guys think lifters would last without proper lubrication? My guess is < 3 hours. Non MDS lifters have also failed. Add it all up....

 

[21bighorn]

I think it is a little misleading, in that: If you are running a stock engine, never disabling MDS still only pressurizes some of the lifters, some of the time. The video makers point was in regard to replacing all of your lifters and running extra oil pressure all of the time. Plus, I would be concerned with oil aeration and creating leaks with that constant, increased oil pressure.

I feel as if the problem lies with how high the cam is in the block and the angle of the pushrods. This angle also contributes to not keeping the lifters full of oil all the time. Just my opinion

 

[silver billet]

I feel as if the problem lies with how high the cam is in the block and the angle of the pushrods. This angle also contributes to not keeping the lifters full of oil all the time. Just my opinion

That's part of Uncle Tony's theory, but the lifters use pressurized oil, I don't see how angle plays any role in this whatsoever. He grabs a lifter on angle and pours oil over it and then it drops off before reaching the needle bearings and then says "see, no lubrication", but it's pressurized oil, it's going to be reaching the end.

Same thing with the height/placement, the lifters don't get "splashed" with oil from off the crank, they get pressurized oil.

I better stop arguing because I have to admit this is out of my wheelhouse, but so far all of this rumour and speculation is based off of Uncle Tony's video and many have tried to correct his theory but the damage is now done. Apparently FCA doesn't now how to lubricate an engine

 

[aoehero]

I just saw this pop up on my youtube feed and gave it a watch. Definitely informative and worth the watch if you're interested! If this has already been posted (I didn't see a thread) feel free to remove.

Too Long; Didn't Watch - Basically went over that lifter failure only happens to roughly 5% of all Hemis and FCA is in no hurry to retool their production lines to fix such a small number of instances. Addresses some of the speculation on what causes the lifter failure and then goes on to show a disassembled MDS lifter vs a standard lifter. Then discusses some hypothesis on what's going on as well as explaining how the MDS system functions. This is the really interesting portion in my opinion.

I saw the video, it was interesting and speculative. There is a better one about the increased distance between the crank and cam which is more plausible. I add Lucas with each oil change as a preventative. Hope it works! I can't seem to find out which cylinder lifters go bad. MDS or non MDS. Might dispel some MDS doubts.
Thanks from a newbie!

 

[silver billet]

I saw the video, it was interesting and speculative. There is a better one about the increased distance between the crank and cam which is more plausible. I add Lucas with each oil change as a preventative. Hope it works! I can't seem to find out which cylinder lifters go bad. MDS or non MDS. Might dispel some MDS doubts.
Thanks from a newbie!

They both go bad, one tech claims it's twice the rate for MDS but that's the first I've heard in terms of actual numbers. Worth noting that non MDS enabled 6.4's also have bad lifters.

Can you link to the video you're talking about?

 

[HemiDude]

They both go bad, one tech claims it's twice the rate for MDS but that's the first I've heard in terms of actual numbers. Worth noting that non MDS enabled 6.4's also have bad lifters.

Can you link to the video you're talking about?

I agree. I never had a problem with my 6.4, but I had a manual trans which did not come with MDS. The guys I know with 6.4 failures all had automatics with MDS. I feel like the lifters are somehow compromised by MDS, and the failures are load related, compounded by the loading associated with overdrive trannies. The Pulsar I have installed allows me to lock out MDS, so in my mind I am eliminating that part of the equation. If I am correct, I should be fine. If I experience lifter failure going forward, I will have to eat crow

 

[aoehero]

They both go bad, one tech claims it's twice the rate for MDS but that's the first I've heard in terms of actual numbers. Worth noting that non MDS enabled 6.4's also have bad lifters.

Can you link to the video you're talking about?

Sorry Its already posted. I didn't read all the post.
In Harleys they have gone so far as to say "what batch of lifters were made where." ones made down south are suspected bad.
But every repair is an opportunity to increase Horse Power.

 

[aoehero]

I have thought long and hard on what the problem could be on destroyed cams. Then this morning it hit me, Programed Obsolescence! As I started my truck this morning it sounded like a lifter was in sideways! The same way It sounded the day I picked it up from the dealer. They say the lifter needs to pump up. I say BULL ****! Everyone knows the most damage done to an engine is at start up. These lifters sound dead or stuck not deflated, if they were deflated they would not let the valves lift. I'm sure enough damage is done in the occasional stuck lifter start up to destroy a cam!

 

[silver billet]

I have thought long and hard on what the problem could be on destroyed cams. Then this morning it hit me, Programed Obsolescence! As I started my truck this morning it sounded like a lifter was in sideways! The same way It sounded the day I picked it up from the dealer. They say the lifter needs to pump up. I say BULL ****! Everyone knows the most damage done to an engine is at start up. These lifters sound dead or stuck not deflated, if they were deflated they would not let the valves lift. I'm sure enough damage is done in the occasional stuck lifter start up to destroy a cam!

You could running a royal purple oil filter (or a wix, one with synthetic media and a proper anti drainback valve), combined with Redline 5w-20 or 5w-30. There is lots of user reports saying this quiets the tick.

The royal purple oil filter is approved (won't void your warranty), redline oil is NOT approved so use at your own risk. You may want to try the RP filter by itself first to see how effective that is, but many of use use/need both. I'm running RL despite having another 2 years left on the engine warranty because you can do a lot of damage in 4 years waiting for the warranty to expire, thereby requiring the use of the warranty once you no longer have it. My hope is to avoid damaging the engine in the first place.

 

[834k3r]

Based on the information in these videos the engineers designed the HEMI motors to lubricate the lifters, by pressurizing the lifter bores when MDS is deployed. The solenoid controls the oil pressure to these bores when activated. So allowing your engine to to go into MDS mode seems beneficial to me not only for gas mileage but also for lifter lubrication.

So, I'm a bit embarrassed to ask this, but is the "MDS mode" the same thing as what the owner's manual calls "ERS"? In my defense, I've had my 1500 for only about a month, so I'm still learning.