EcoDiesel power bump?

ExcursionDiesel

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Besides emissions, one of the reasons we don't see diesels with 100hp per liter IN A WORK TRUCK is due to thermal efficiency. The EGTs on a diesel tuned to those levels is extremely high...to the point of engine damage if not managed properly. This affects longevity. Does the 6.7 Cummins make 670hp or even close to that? They can be tuned to those levels but warranty claims for roasted pistons and turbos from people expecting to tow heavy would be frequent.

Those of us with performance diesels have the ability to detune for towing...and we accept that damage can occur if we drive them too hard for too long. We have guages and watch EGT, Boost, and Transmission temp and know the safe limits.
 

habu987

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Besides emissions, one of the reasons we don't see diesels with 100hp per liter IN A WORK TRUCK is due to thermal efficiency. The EGTs on a diesel tuned to those levels is extremely high...to the point of engine damage if not managed properly. This affects longevity. Does the 6.7 Cummins make 670hp or even close to that? They can be tuned to those levels but warranty claims for roasted pistons and turbos from people expecting to tow heavy would be frequent.

Those of us with performance diesels have the ability to detune for towing...and we accept that damage can occur if we drive them too hard for too long. We have guages and watch EGT, Boost, and Transmission temp and know the safe limits.
Speaking as someone who's only ever driven a diesel once...and that was a Audi A3 loaner for a whopping day and a half...I didn't know about the thermal efficiency aspect.

Also speaking as someone who's absolutely not an engineer and isn't a gear head, I wonder if a diesel can be engineered in a way that would allow that kind of performance without being either cost prohibitive or too bulky/heavy?
 

SpeedyV

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Speaking as someone who's only ever driven a diesel once...and that was a Audi A3 loaner for a whopping day and a half...I didn't know about the thermal efficiency aspect.

Also speaking as someone who's absolutely not an engineer and isn't a gear head, I wonder if a diesel can be engineered in a way that would allow that kind of performance without being either cost prohibitive or too bulky/heavy?
It's possible, of course. But you hit the nail on the head with cost. Cost and reliability are primary drivers.

Consider the 3/4-ton and 1-ton truck market for a second. The diesels available from the big three have power outputs exceeding the engines of dump trucks and tractor-trailers of years past, mostly for competitive reasons. They are producing many thousands of those engines, which reduces the relative cost of R&D, yet it still costs $9-10K extra to upgrade to a diesel drivetrain in those trucks.
 

ExcursionDiesel

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Speaking as someone who's only ever driven a diesel once...and that was a Audi A3 loaner for a whopping day and a half...I didn't know about the thermal efficiency aspect.

Also speaking as someone who's absolutely not an engineer and isn't a gear head, I wonder if a diesel can be engineered in a way that would allow that kind of performance without being either cost prohibitive or too bulky/heavy?
The newer diesels also use the engine controls (ECU) to automatically detune under heavy loads. When Exhaust Gas Temperature runs high for extended periods (15 seconds or more), where metal parts would begin to anneal or melt, then fueling is reduced. So that beastly torque monster is detuned to safe levels. The same vehicle unloaded can develope short burst of higher power output for acceleration. The old Powerstroke 7.3 was known as a towing beast as was the 5.9 Cummins. They were tuned to run wide open with maximum loads all day without damage. They only made 250-275hp.

If the 3.0 EcoDiesel is tuned to 300hp/500tq from the factory, expect it to detune after 10-20 seconds of heavy use. The CRD injection and turbo in the current '14-'18 Ecodiesel supports 320hp/530tq already. It's just not safe to do so if the driver is not experienced. Damage can occur under heavy loads. It does make driving unloaded in traffic or passing on highways fun.
 

ExcursionDiesel

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Looks like GM hit 282 hp and 450 lb-ft with the Duramax. If Ram is still going for the most powerful 3.0 diesel, I'm calling 290 hp and 460 lb-ft.

https://www.tfltruck.com/2018/10/3-0-liter-duramax-figures-leaked/
Interesting. I notice towing is only 7800 lbs. With 450 ft lbs, it should tow more. I suspect it is tuned hot but will detune under load to protect the motor. 92 hp/litre is hot. A 6.7 Cummins factory tuned to that level would produce 630 hp / 1005 tq. but they arent. These 3.0's are much closer to the limits.
 

habu987

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Interesting. I notice towing is only 7800 lbs. With 450 ft lbs, it should tow more. I suspect it is tuned hot but will detune under load to protect the motor. 92 hp/litre is hot. A 6.7 Cummins factory tuned to that level would produce 630 hp / 1005 tq. but they arent. These 3.0's are much closer to the limits.
From one of the comments on the article: "The somewhat low tow rating is probably a result of complying with J2807- it has various acceleration and hill climb requirements that end up being mostly a horsepower limitation. Notice that GM’s V6 and Turbo4 also have similar tow ratings."

Way outside my wheelhouse, so no idea if that's remotely the case or not.
 

ExcursionDiesel

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From one of the comments on the article: "The somewhat low tow rating is probably a result of complying with J2807- it has various acceleration and hill climb requirements that end up being mostly a horsepower limitation. Notice that GM’s V6 and Turbo4 also have similar tow ratings."

Way outside my wheelhouse, so no idea if that's remotely the case or not.
Just read some tech articles on J2807. Complying with J2807 means that, with whatever tow weight they publish, they must be able to pass the performance testing. A reduced rating is an indication that the vehicle can only pass the test at that lower tow weight. Most likely the "rated" HP/TQ is not available 100% of the time due to thermal limits. The EcoDiesel at 240 HP / 420 TQ has similar tow ratings. I saw a Hill climb test with the 3.0 Powerstroke and 3.0 EcoDiesel. The Powerstroke was slower yet had higher HP/TQ. Manufacturers are defueling under heavy loads to protect these tiny diesels from melting...yet rating them at "peak" ratings. Expect more of this as the light duty diesel market heats up with the big 3 offering similar engine options.
 

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Buyer beware on the eco diesel, FCA stopped selling them over the emissions lawsuit, but I am not sure if they have fixed the cam issue that was causing mass failures. Go read up on eco diesel issues, I am glad I did, I was considering a 2018 1500 eco. The salesman pointed me a in a different direction because of this
 

ExcursionDiesel

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Buyer beware on the eco diesel, FCA stopped selling them over the emissions lawsuit, but I am not sure if they have fixed the cam issue that was causing mass failures. Go read up on eco diesel issues, I am glad I did, I was considering a 2018 1500 eco. The salesman pointed me a in a different direction because of this
For most of us with failures, we lost the bottom end. The cam was a myth started by a YouTube video. There was never a cam that slipped timing of all the failures documented.

The main bearing failures are attributed to improperly bored journals that caused binding forces and premature failure. FCA is painfully aware of this. The next gen 3.0 should address this. In the mean time, I'll enjoy a Hemi. I'll miss my EcoDiesel though. It is amazing in the Grand Cherokee. Just had quality/assembly issues.

As far as the EPA goes, all the diesels are under rediculous scrutiny and have experienced delays to market. The ever changing tougher standards are ruining them. I'd like to see the standards rolled back or at least frozen until manufacturers can catch up and make reliable emission systems. It's ridiculous.
 

habu987

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For most of us with failures, we lost the bottom end. The cam was a myth started by a YouTube video. There was never a cam that slipped timing of all the failures documented.

The main bearing failures are attributed to improperly bored journals that caused binding forces and premature failure. FCA is painfully aware of this. The next gen 3.0 should address this. In the mean time, I'll enjoy a Hemi. I'll miss my EcoDiesel though. It is amazing in the Grand Cherokee. Just had quality/assembly issues.

As far as the EPA goes, all the diesels are under rediculous scrutiny and have experienced delays to market. The ever changing tougher standards are ruining them. I'd like to see the standards rolled back or at least frozen until manufacturers can catch up and make reliable emission systems. It's ridiculous.
If the next gen 3.0 isn't a dog, and I get another Ram after the lease of my soon-to-arrive truck is up, I'll likely go with the 3.0.

Diesel around here is usually around the price of 89 gas and $0.20-0.30 per gallon more than 87. If I could get >10% better fuel economy while maintaining the same or similar performance, and not have to pay an outrageous upcharge for the 3.0, I'd definitely go for it in 2021.
 

ExcursionDiesel

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If the next gen 3.0 isn't a dog, and I get another Ram after the lease of my soon-to-arrive truck is up, I'll likely go with the 3.0.

Diesel around here is usually around the price of 89 gas and $0.20-0.30 per gallon more than 87. If I could get >10% better fuel economy while maintaining the same or similar performance, and not have to pay an outrageous upcharge for the 3.0, I'd definitely go for it in 2021.
You'd be well pleased with the performance. The 3.0 actually feels quicker than the Hemi under daily driving conditions due the the peak 430 ft/lb torque occurring at 1750 rpm. At full throttle, the Hemi obviously wins but who drives around at full throttle? My Grand Cherokee averaged 28.5 mpg and 32 mpg on long trips at 75mph on flat terrain. Honestly the best powertrain in a vehicle I've ever owned. The Ecodiesel paid for itself twice over in fuel cost in five years.
 

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You'd be well pleased with the performance. The 3.0 actually feels quicker than the Hemi under daily driving conditions due the the peak 430 ft/lb torque occurring at 1750 rpm. At full throttle, the Hemi obviously wins but who drives around at full throttle? My Grand Cherokee averaged 28.5 mpg and 32 mpg on long trips at 75mph on flat terrain. Honestly the best powertrain in a vehicle I've ever owned. The Ecodiesel paid for itself twice over in fuel cost in five years.
I have had 2 eco's the first one blew up right after my 1st oil change and I traded it that day for another. Silly me. The 2nd eco took at all 6 injectors at 20k. I love the powerplant so much more than the Hemi but I will never go back . My experiment with diesel is over. Picking my new Hemi up on Wed. I will miss the economy but really I just pre paid for it. Cost of fuel, Maint etc.
 

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I have had 2 eco's the first one blew up right after my 1st oil change and I traded it that day for another. Silly me. The 2nd eco took at all 6 injectors at 20k. I love the powerplant so much more than the Hemi but I will never go back . My experiment with diesel is over. Picking my new Hemi up on Wed. I will miss the economy but really I just pre paid for it. Cost of fuel, Maint etc.
I had a similar experience, the first engine had a catastrophic failure at 60,099 KM (not miles), and "new engine" less then 2000KM later also blew. They are a hit or miss engine big time...

In terms of pep - my experience has been that the Hemi is WAY quicker in terms of acceleration (very very responsive compared to the 3.0L). Although Diesels were made to work hard (pull), they weren't made to become speed demons.

While you can't hold a candle to the fuel economy of the 3.0, the maintenance cost of this engine is huge. My oil changes in Canada were $220.00, it uses DEF fluid (additional cost), Fuel filters need to be replaced once a year (additional cost), Diesel Particulate Filters get clogged, EGR gets clogged, Crankshaft bearing failures, Camshaft sprocket failures; and the price of Diesel lately is a lot more expensive than it was in 2015.

To me the extra cost of the engine, maintenance, and it's track record in terms of reliability; it is a far from stellar choice IMO.
 
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ExcursionDiesel

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My EcoDiesel paid for itself somewhere around 65k miles. I traded for my the truck in my signature at 103,800.

I did my own oil changes at 10k intervals. The EcoDiesel wasn't as responsive at WOT but under partial throttle it made more torque than the Hemi. Peak torque was at 1750 rpm...which is where most people drive. Hemi sounds like its screaming with downshifts and high revs. The EcoDiesel just accelerates. I really liked it. The reliability can be solved. Hopefully the next gen EcoDiesel has these issues adressed.
 

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Yeah I never got the extra cost of maintenance except that some dealerships raped their customers on the cost of oil and fuel filter changes. When mine was new I had the dealership change my oil for $120 plus tax. Since then I change my own with T6 which with filter cost about $65. Like Excursion Diesel & per warranty every 10k. Fuel filter is $30 and done every 30k per my warranty. Both oil & fuel filter changes are simple on this truck. Short of that you should have less maintenance than a gas truck at least in my experience for the first 350,000 plus miles. Oh yea you have the cost of DEF. 8 gallons every 10k at 1.69 at the pump is $14.

Mine has tune and 3.92 its responsive and torquie making it easy to drive aggressive in traffic. From what is/was on Garrett's site and PPEI's testing the lil turbo is only good for 300 HP but as said the injectors & fuel pumps can do more. PPEI basically did 300HP & 530TQ tuned for all they could get out of the stock stuff.

The 2nd gen ED motor is not far out and is to have bearing failures resolved. With GMs numbers I'll bet they tune the 2nd gen which should have a lil newer bigger turbo to beat GM as they have verbally committed to that so likely 285HP & 465+TQ with room to grow. The cooling system is to be better as well helping to make room for this. My 4 door ED is rated to tow 8,800. I bet they bump that a smidge as well.
 
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Doc

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Yeah I never got the extra cost of maintenance except that some dealerships raped their customers on the cost of oil and fuel filter changes. When mine was new I had the dealership change my oil for $120 plus tax. Since then I change my own with T6 which with filter cost about $65. Like Excursion Diesel & per warranty every 10k. Fuel filter is $30 and done every 30k per my warranty. Both oil & fuel filter changes are simple on this truck. Short of that you should have less maintenance than a gas truck at least in my experience for the first 350,000 plus miles. Oh yea you have the cost of DEF. 8 gallons every 10k at 1.69 at the pump is $14.

Mine has tune and 3.92 its responsive and torquie making it easy to drive aggressive in traffic. From what is/was on Garrett's site and PPEI's testing the lil turbo is only good for 300 HP but as said the injectors & fuel pumps can do more. PPEI basically did 300HP & 530TQ tuned for all they could get out of the stock stuff.

The 2nd gen ED motor is not far out and is to have bearing failures resolved. With GMs numbers I'll bet they tune the 2nd gen which should have a lil newer bigger turbo to beat GM as they have verbally committed to that so likely 285HP & 465+TQ with room to grow. The cooling system is to be better as well helping to make room for this. My 4 door ED is rated to tow 8,800. I bet they bump that a smidge as well.
Nicely written.
 

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Excursion, Have you worked with water methanol injection? Truck Trend magazine had a review of Snow Performance's Stage 3 water-methanol injection kit. From a box stock truck no other changes they picked up 50 HP & 110 TQ at the wheels to peak numbers. More spread at different rpms.

GDE's safe towing tune made 248 HP & 420 TQ at the wheels. IF the injection kit could add the same to GDE's tune it would make right at 300 HP & 530 TQ again at the wheels. While providing decreased EGTs for safer towing, cleaner emissions, and a cleaner engine. Plus a slight decrease in diesel consumption under heavy load / partial water-meth boost conditions with no change in diesel consumption at WOT as I understand it. This would even move a large 1/2 ton appropriate box camper up a grade or at speed with all the power and speed you would need again for a half ton appropriate load. Like 8k and below. Plus when at part throttle or non towing use still get the phenomenal mileage the ED is known for.

Downside kit & install costs almost $1,400. Plus the relatively low cost of water-meth used. I'm wondering if the cooled inlet and EGT temps would also take some load off the cooling system. I would assume it would which should be a real benefit since the 4th gen ED is somewhat cooling system limited. Thoughts or experiences?

Edit this would have to pretty much max out the small factory turbo in order to move that much air. This is the same power as PPEI's race tune only with much safer more usable power as I see it.

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/engine/1507-snow-performance-power-max-water-methanol-system/
 
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ExcursionDiesel

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Excursion, Have you worked with water methanol injection? Truck Trend magazine had a review of Snow Performance's Stage 3 water-methanol injection kit. From a box stock truck no other changes they picked up 50 HP & 110 TQ at the wheels to peak numbers. More spread at different rpms.

GDE's safe towing tune made 248 HP & 420 TQ at the wheels. IF the injection kit could add the same to GDE's tune it would make right at 300 HP & 530 TQ again at the wheels. While providing decreased EGTs for safer towing, cleaner emissions, and a cleaner engine. Plus a slight decrease in diesel consumption under heavy load / partial water-meth boost conditions with no change in diesel consumption at WOT as I understand it. This would even move a large 1/2 ton appropriate box camper up a grade or at speed with all the power and speed you would need again for a half ton appropriate load. Like 8k and below. Plus when at part throttle or non towing use still get the phenomenal mileage the ED is known for.

Downside kit & install costs almost $1,400. Plus the relatively low cost of water-meth used. I'm wondering if the cooled inlet and EGT temps would also take some load off the cooling system. I would assume it would which should be a real benefit since the 4th gen ED is somewhat cooling system limited. Thoughts or experiences?

Edit this would have to pretty much max out the small factory turbo in order to move that much air. This is the same power as PPEI's race tune only with much safer more usable power as I see it.
I have no direct experience with water-meth injection but have read up on it. I was under the impression it was more akin to nitrous in the way it is used with drag racing and pulling truck applications. The benefits of lowering EGT would be welcome since a tuned ED can easily hit 1450+ °F. Stock tuning reaches 1300 at WOT or under heavy loads.
 

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