2020 Ram 1500 Will Not Reliably Start

[TBMSport]

My windshield doesn't **** water in this truck or any car\truck I have ever owned so i'm all set.

If you are leaking water from your windshield you need to seal it, as it was sealed incorrectly (obviously). As by you, I mean a windshield installation company (which normally results in needing a new windshield).

The rear window leaks have 0 to do with improperly sealed equipment, and is almost always because it gets broken.
I have not seen anyone having a windshield with the same synonyms of the rear window leak, as the rear window cracks on plastic and allows water to come through.

Are you like putting water bottles with loose caps on your dash? I don't understand how you can possibly think you are getting water up there, nor how this is some worldwide problem that Ram needs to have a recall for from NHTSA

Funny you talk about "confident keyboard experts" and then say "glass insulated by rubber to steel".
You don't even have the slightest clue what compounds are used to seal windshields to your truck, rubber LOL. Urethane or Polyurethane are generally used now and neither of which are rubber.

Maybe do a little research and look around and see what is going on vs asking the internet for help and just get mad with the info you get.

View attachment 172287

 

[TBMSport]

Wow. If you want to make an entire argument about a generic reference with regards to flexible insulation molding, have it. And considering you yourself are using generic terms without referring or knowing the exact material formula compound of the windshield insulation on our Rams does not make you light years more knowledgeable. What next, will you argue people who say they had to replace their rubber on their wheels because tires use a more complicated formula and mix of chemicals despite different manufacturers and different tire brands having synthetic materials that may or may not include steel belts also? Maybe you have little experience with condensation build up and internal channeling designs of "non rubber" insulation, particularly up in 4 season parts of the world when A/C units are running full blast in high humidity. Whatever.

Getting this back on track from a butt hurt take over, the fact of the matter is, this thread and my contribution to this thread is all about trying to find the problem that afflicts more than just ME. And in the pursuit of problem solving what tends to be a particularly more frequent occurence with Ram truck over the years, not just our generation, it falls within the parameters that agencies like the DOT define as worthy of "investigation". Not necessarily recall. But, at least, say it with me, in-vest-i-ga-tion! I am not one of those souls who puts 100% confidence in a for profit organization willing to sacrifice human life and limb for, well, profit. And I am confident that I am not alone. And intellectually curious people don't reject potential avenues for finding a solution by flatly rejecting them simply because, plain and simple you don't know. I don't know. No one knows. But the fact that there is evidence to support that there are manufacturing defects, and we know that mass assembly vehicles are not "properly" assembles and that incorrectly assembly from improper installation improper welds, or improper curing can lead to "problems".

That said, speaking of research, what I discovered recently from my research in the matter, is that modern Stop/Start starters (at least some of those supplied in GM vehicles) differ from traditional starters in multiple ways. The most interesting difference that I found relevant was this:
"In contrast to the non-stop/start starter, the solenoid on stop/start starters decouples the mechanical action of engaging the drive pinion into the flywheel from the electrical action of stopping and starting the motor. This is done by using two individually controlled relays and solenoids to allow for smooth engagement of the pinion gear into the flywheel with minimum noise and wear, rather than the single relay plus solenoid of a non-stop/start system".

Having experienced countless bad starters, bad fuse boxes, bad/shorts in ignition and wiring, I am curious if the high whine buzzing that I heard when my starter only clicked, but no start, even after timing out, is related to my battery drain. Perhaps there is something wrong with these starters themselves, assuming the same GM supplier design is present. Not much information seems to be out there on Mopar starter details.

So, I will be retaining the old starter after the dealer swaps it and sending it to one of my electric parts rebuilders for evaluation and then having an independent shop perform some load, ground, open circuitry testing on the BCM/fuse block.

But no worries DarkSteel. You've learned me good. I won't burden you, the community, or the thread with the outcome or findings from anything no more. If only you had set me straight years ago before I determined/shared that something as simple and too much fluid in the transmission was directly causing erratic hard shifts, random auto brake and collision sensor warning activations, and rough starts from stop/start. The absurdity of it!

 

[TBMSport]

So, update. While I'm waiting for Ram to complete the starter replacement, I picked the brain of one of my customers who does authorized and licensed EU conversion work for Stellantis. He brought 3 things to my attention.

First, apparently it turns out that all Chrysler products from the past 8 to 20 years has this same basic PCIM that used to be mounted in the engine compartment on previous generation Rams. Allegedly, the block itself is okay, it's the low quality supplied relays that are the problem, particularly one small white one that's considered a double relay handling two different 30 amp circuits. These relays go bad and the first sign of them is usually inoperable door locks, then inoperable lights, misc. other issues, then ultimately a failing fuel pump. When experiencing weird electrical glitches, He suggests looking at this module and your BCM, pulling fuses and checking to see if there's evidence of overheating.

The second known electrical shortcoming of Mopar products apparently is this "star interlink"(?) block junction that is used throughout the vehicle where the junction block used is no different than old desktop PC fan pin connections. This apparently saves money and weight on running long harnesses and apparently are not insulated, sealed or anything else and in moist environments, will tend to corrode. Requiring tracking as to where they are installed throughout the body of the vehicle, cleaning, dielectric grease, and reinserting. Same intermittent electrical feature symptoms will happen. He noted that this is further aggravated by overall industry standards of using regular steel or tin as electrical contacts instead of copper that's properly plated as was the industry standard 20 plus years ago.

Lastly, he suggested taking a look at the ground straps on the engine and starter. Apparently both the engine mounts and in some cases starter mounts have rubber bushings and whatever internal fluids to isolate vibration. This impacts the ability of non-copper, thin, and poorly conducting stainless steel ground strap connecting points to corrode and obviously stop, well, grounding. He confirmed the two step starter setup and shared that the engagement of the pinion into the flexplate during extended stop conditions takes an incredible amount of amperage to hold it against the retracting spring pressure. He quoted 15 amps are drawn just to hold the pinion gear against the flexplate for a quick restart when the brake is lifted. Needless to say, when the ground strap connection for the starter goes bad, and crap relays are drawing 15 amps for extended and frequent periods of time, that leads to a very lucrative business of rebuilding melted pcims and fuse blocks for Chryslers. The symptom, which mine began to demonstrate a month prior to total failure, was more frequent restarts while stopped in traffic. What used to take seemingly a minute or so before restart would now restart frequently within 10 seconds or so with my foot fully depressed. So he strongly suggested that a quality 5 gauge strap be used in addition to the factory strap to help give life to starters.

It's raining cats and dogs here, snow is on the way, and the truck is still the dealer, so I can't check my own truck

 

[ZombieSlayer]

One thing I have on my list but keep putting off is changing out the "big 3" ground straps. So far I've had no issues but with planned future mods I'm going to have to beef up the electrical and charging system. Reading your post has brought this back to the forefront

Anyone done the big 3 yet?

Just wondering what everyone picked to ground? Obviously power from alt to power on battery, negative on battery to a ground point on frame.. but what about the alt ground? Seems the alternator is part of the engine case almost.. i would think its pretty well grounded there.. Alt case bolt to...

5thgenrams.com

 

[HSKR R/T]

So, update. While I'm waiting for Ram to complete the starter replacement, I picked the brain of one of my customers who does authorized and licensed EU conversion work for Stellantis. He brought 3 things to my attention.

First, apparently it turns out that all Chrysler products from the past 8 to 20 years has this same basic PCIM that used to be mounted in the engine compartment on previous generation Rams. Allegedly, the block itself is okay, it's the low quality supplied relays that are the problem, particularly one small white one that's considered a double relay handling two different 30 amp circuits. These relays go bad and the first sign of them is usually inoperable door locks, then inoperable lights, misc. other issues, then ultimately a failing fuel pump. When experiencing weird electrical glitches, He suggests looking at this module and your BCM, pulling fuses and checking to see if there's evidence of overheating.

The second known electrical shortcoming of Mopar products apparently is this "star interlink"(?) block junction that is used throughout the vehicle where the junction block used is no different than old desktop PC fan pin connections. This apparently saves money and weight on running long harnesses and apparently are not insulated, sealed or anything else and in moist environments, will tend to corrode. Requiring tracking as to where they are installed throughout the body of the vehicle, cleaning, dielectric grease, and reinserting. Same intermittent electrical feature symptoms will happen. He noted that this is further aggravated by overall industry standards of using regular steel or tin as electrical contacts instead of copper that's properly plated as was the industry standard 20 plus years ago.

Lastly, he suggested taking a look at the ground straps on the engine and starter. Apparently both the engine mounts and in some cases starter mounts have rubber bushings and whatever internal fluids to isolate vibration. This impacts the ability of non-copper, thin, and poorly conducting stainless steel ground strap connecting points to corrode and obviously stop, well, grounding. He confirmed the two step starter setup and shared that the engagement of the pinion into the flexplate during extended stop conditions takes an incredible amount of amperage to hold it against the retracting spring pressure. He quoted 15 amps are drawn just to hold the pinion gear against the flexplate for a quick restart when the brake is lifted. Needless to say, when the ground strap connection for the starter goes bad, and crap relays are drawing 15 amps for extended and frequent periods of time, that leads to a very lucrative business of rebuilding melted pcims and fuse blocks for Chryslers. The symptom, which mine began to demonstrate a month prior to total failure, was more frequent restarts while stopped in traffic. What used to take seemingly a minute or so before restart would now restart frequently within 10 seconds or so with my foot fully depressed. So he strongly suggested that a quality 5 gauge strap be used in addition to the factory strap to help give life to starters.

It's raining cats and dogs here, snow is on the way, and the truck is still the dealer, so I can't check my own truck

I thought the etorque was used to turn the engine over for restart during AS/S operation? Not the starter.

 

[Darksteel165]

I thought the etorque was used to turn the engine over for restart during AS/S operation? Not the starter.

Correct etorque starts the engine during AS/S, that's why it's smooth

 

[TBMSport]

Update. Still waiting for a starter. Truck has not been driven in 5 weeks, three of which has been at the dealer. Reason? Apparently, during the strikes, stalantis rerouted all of their existing inventory to random non-striking facilities. And as luck would have it, didn't keep pretty good track of them. In this case, apparently Etorque specific starters were sent to St Louis, Missouri and my dealer doesn't have much experience getting stuff out of there, but it was reported that my starter was sent out last week on Monday, and we're still waiting for it. I guess it goes its own way as there's no tracking available and we're just hoping it gets here any day before Christmas. Or New Year's for that matter. Hope none of you guys have any breakdowns. Or at least, they'll give you a loaner. Mine says they cannot give me a loaner because all of their loaners are out for Dodge and RAM owners who have major backorder parts under warranty.

I can honestly say, having bought all new GM vehicles, Toyota's, Mazda, and Lexus and even Fords over the years, I am not impressed with the owner commitment service of Dodge/Ram/Stellantis. Never have I or my family had to be making payments on something, particularly only 3 years old, has driveability problems from day 1, that now can't drive, has two sets of parts on back/delayed order, and can't be provided a loaner.

 

[TBMSport]

Yes, that is the error in his information. Etorque is different than the non-etorque stop starts Stellantis Hemis.

And for those who have a jerking or hesitating stop-start experience like I do, then the issue is with your transmission. Most likely.

Correct etorque starts the engine during AS/S, that's why it's smooth

 

[HSKR R/T]

Update. Still waiting for a starter. Truck has not been driven in 5 weeks, three of which has been at the dealer. Reason? Apparently, during the strikes, stalantis rerouted all of their existing inventory to random non-striking facilities. And as luck would have it, didn't keep pretty good track of them. In this case, apparently Etorque specific starters were sent to St Louis, Missouri and my dealer doesn't have much experience getting stuff out of there, but it was reported that my starter was sent out last week on Monday, and we're still waiting for it. I guess it goes its own way as there's no tracking available and we're just hoping it gets here any day before Christmas. Or New Year's for that matter. Hope none of you guys have any breakdowns. Or at least, they'll give you a loaner. Mine says they cannot give me a loaner because all of their loaners are out for Dodge and RAM owners who have major backorder parts under warranty.

I can honestly say, having bought all new GM vehicles, Toyota's, Mazda, and Lexus and even Fords over the years, I am not impressed with the owner commitment service of Dodge/Ram/Stellantis. Never have I or my family had to be making payments on something, particularly only 3 years old, has driveability problems from day 1, that now can't drive, has two sets of parts on back/delayed order, and can't be provided a loaner.

Loaners are by the dealer, not Stelantis. They will reimburse for rental car costs while vehicle is at dealer for warranty work. I have dealt with Chevy dealers who don't provide loaners. And GM doesn't explicitly say they will reimburse for rental car expenses like Ram does.

 

[Darksteel165]

Loaners are by the dealer, not Stelantis. They will reimburse for rental car costs while vehicle is at dealer for warranty work. I have dealt with Chevy dealers who don't provide loaners. And GM doesn't explicitly say they will reimburse for rental car expenses like Ram does.

Chevy will cover a rental, but you need to call in. Like Ram the dealership doesn't tell you this.

 

[HSKR R/T]

Chevy will cover a rental, but you need to call in. Like Ram the dealership doesn't tell you this.

I have a Chevy Traverse and am in a Traverse Facebook group. All the dealership complaints we get here happen with Chevy as well. I brought up Ram reimbursement for rental cars and one person who's Traverse was at the dealer said they were told they would have to send in the rental receipt and it would be determined if Chevy would pay for it or not. It wasn't guaranteed

 

[Darksteel165]

I have a Chevy Traverse and am in a Traverse Facebook group. All the dealership complaints we get here happen with Chevy as well. I brought up Ram reimbursement for rental cars and one person who's Traverse was at the dealer said they were told they would have to send in the rental receipt and it would be determined if Chevy would pay for it or not. It wasn't guaranteed

The only thing guaranteed with dealerships is you are going to get shafted unfortunately.
Unless you find the 1 tech or unicorn dealership the brand doesn't make a big diff, corporate can't control the privately owned and operated dealerships.

 

[TBMSport]

So, after 6 weeks w/o my truck not running, and taking matters into my own hands, I reached out to the parts department directly and egged him on to find me a starter from a local dealer's inventory and got my truck back just in time for Christmas.

I paid for the core charge to take my old starter and do some investigating and as a GM man, one of the first things that struck me as odd was the fact that the starter bolts to the transmission bellhousing and not the engine block. Which seems incredibly odd and curious and has me thinking that the starter is now looking to ground itself through the transmission. Which means the transmission ground wire is now responsible for grounding the starter properly. Seems like an unnecessarily long path to take to ground a high amperage draw component. Further, as you can see from the front facing surface, the mating was not perfectly flush or sealed, and corrosion worked its way in. Hopefully in the near future I'll get around to testing this starter and or having it torn apart and analyzed.

Pretty sure the reason it's done this way is because it's a ZF supplied transmission and mounting to the bell housing is a more of a "Universal Design feature" to make their transmissions more modular from everything BMW to Volkswagen and RAM. I'm no metallurgist or electrician, but the design seems quite flawed considering there's an iron engine block right there that is a lot more conductive than an aluminum starter face mounting to an aluminum transmission that itself has electronic components within, electrical charging/conducting through a lot of fluid surrounding it. I wonder if aluminum block Hemi's are going through starters as frequently. Or for that matter, the aluminum block Pentastar v6.

Unfortunately, because I paid the dealer to do the work, I couldn't get in there to do a little preventative maintenance such as sand down the surface of the bell housing and maybe even add some spray paint or sealant along the top mating surface. I'm going to look further into how the transmission case is grounded and see if any grounding assistance can be given there as well.

Based on how the starter is installed, it seems that the corroded side sits outboard. So any water, rust from the engine or exhaust manifolds, salt and corrosion from the road, Etc would splash up on there, run down along the mating edge, and then be given a nice baking from the catalytic converter and basically just erode its way in. As opposed to a GM starter setup which would a) would be shielded from road debris/top engine flaking surface run off and b) have the mating surface at the top of the starter where liquids would always run off and or be blown by the spinning flex plate. Maybe a starter Shield that stretches back a little bit further to also keep the front prop shaft from spinning toad water onto it?

 

[TBMSport]

The DT Achilles Heel (If your having problems read this)

Ok, this is a long post. But based on what I experienced I feel this would be able to help someone, somewhere. Since I bought the truck in May, I've had AC issues, the mysterious "bump" coming from the transmission/rear end, hard 5-4 and 2-1 downshifts, ANC noises, and UConnect going...

5thgenrams.com

So, I think the issue is indeed a grounding issue, although not the starter mounting design that I was rambling on about previously. Sorry. It was a long day in the garage and I had not eaten. LOL so I came across the above thread after chatting with my Chrysler expert who mentioned this to me:

"bad ground can be an issue. So regrounding the whole thing is not a bad idea. I remember a similar issue on one of the jeep models. There was also a recall or TSB on that. The measure was to install a 4ga wire from the negative terminal thru body up to an alternator bracket on the engine. And and with a bad ground your current draw increases due to a higher resistance. So it can overload burn and flake the contacts inside solenoid what can cause the click/no spin condition. "

My ground to body contacts looked okay. But I hit it with some electrical spray anyway.

Considering I have experienced similar issues as the OP in the thread that I just mentioned and more (Center display going dead, climate control system AC/defroster shutting on and off, this one time high-pitched squeal through the audio system that required the battery to be disconnected, plus the ongoing shifting issues and random Collision sensor activations, intermittent USB port functionality , and intermittent hyper sensitive reverse Auto braking), my guess is that the more heavily optioned our DT 1500 is, the less effective the factory grounding (gauge/layout) system is.

So I guess a HD grounding strap kit is in order. Suggestions?

 

[sparker417417]

So, after 6 weeks w/o my truck not running, and taking matters into my own hands, I reached out to the parts department directly and egged him on to find me a starter from a local dealer's inventory and got my truck back just in time for Christmas.

I paid for the core charge to take my old starter and do some investigating and as a GM man, one of the first things that struck me as odd was the fact that the starter bolts to the transmission bellhousing and not the engine block. Which seems incredibly odd and curious and has me thinking that the starter is now looking to ground itself through the transmission. Which means the transmission ground wire is now responsible for grounding the starter properly. Seems like an unnecessarily long path to take to ground a high amperage draw component. Further, as you can see from the front facing surface, the mating was not perfectly flush or sealed, and corrosion worked its way in. Hopefully in the near future I'll get around to testing this starter and or having it torn apart and analyzed.

Pretty sure the reason it's done this way is because it's a ZF supplied transmission and mounting to the bell housing is a more of a "Universal Design feature" to make their transmissions more modular from everything BMW to Volkswagen and RAM. I'm no metallurgist or electrician, but the design seems quite flawed considering there's an iron engine block right there that is a lot more conductive than an aluminum starter face mounting to an aluminum transmission that itself has electronic components within, electrical charging/conducting through a lot of fluid surrounding it. I wonder if aluminum block Hemi's are going through starters as frequently. Or for that matter, the aluminum block Pentastar v6.

Unfortunately, because I paid the dealer to do the work, I couldn't get in there to do a little preventative maintenance such as sand down the surface of the bell housing and maybe even add some spray paint or sealant along the top mating surface. I'm going to look further into how the transmission case is grounded and see if any grounding assistance can be given there as well.

Based on how the starter is installed, it seems that the corroded side sits outboard. So any water, rust from the engine or exhaust manifolds, salt and corrosion from the road, Etc would splash up on there, run down along the mating edge, and then be given a nice baking from the catalytic converter and basically just erode its way in. As opposed to a GM starter setup which would a) would be shielded from road debris/top engine flaking surface run off and b) have the mating surface at the top of the starter where liquids would always run off and or be blown by the spinning flex plate. Maybe a starter Shield that stretches back a little bit further to also keep the front prop shaft from spinning toad water onto it?

Been following this trend as I'm currently waiting for my mechanic to arrive to install a new starter I just bought. I have a 2019 ram with 100k w no issues until now. Battery was 4 months old when I started getting the dreaded clock same as you, but I could jump it and it would start. Then after jumping it, it would start unless it sat overnight, then no start. Except for this morning when it decided to start . Had a new battery put in 3 days ago but didn't change anything. I checked and my mopar starter looks the same as your pics as far as corrosion etc. I bought a new starter as I need my truck to work and just want the quickest way there...so I'm hoping this will work. I feel your pain - love the truck and baby the hell out of it (changed all fluids myself, tune up, etc). This issue will be the death of me if the starter doesn't work.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[TBMSport]

Been following this trend as I'm currently waiting for my mechanic to arrive to install a new starter I just bought. I have a 2019 ram with 100k w no issues until now. Battery was 4 months old when I started getting the dreaded clock same as you, but I could jump it and it would start. Then after jumping it, it would start unless it sat overnight, then no start. Except for this morning when it decided to start . Had a new battery put in 3 days ago but didn't change anything. I checked and my mopar starter looks the same as your pics as far as corrosion etc. I bought a new starter as I need my truck to work and just want the quickest way there...so I'm hoping this will work. I feel your pain - love the truck and baby the hell out of it (changed all fluids myself, tune up, etc). This issue will be the death of me if the starter doesn't work.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Sorry to hear, man. It's incredibly frustrating to have such simple things spoil and erode confidence in the ownership and driving experience. Especially on a new acquisition that basically a new truck. And especially at the price point.

As I just mentioned in my most recent post that came in right before yours, I'm confident the issue is contacts in the solenoid burning out and that a new starter will fix the problem. But of course the issue is for how long if you still have fundamental wiring and grounding issues in the entire electrical system. It will effectively make your starter a regular maintenance part.

I'm not going to begin to think about trying to rewire a new modern truck, that's what all my projects GM trucks are for. Haha Let alone risk the dealership claiming that an improved grounding system is to blame for other issues that may arise. So I think I'm going to look into double grounding all the contacts I see, so is not to cut up any looms or take apart in place harnesses.

 

[sparker417417]

Sorry to hear, man. It's incredibly frustrating to have such simple things spoil and erode confidence in the ownership and driving experience. Especially on a new acquisition that basically a new truck. And especially at the price point.

As I just mentioned in my most recent post that came in right before yours, I'm confident the issue is contacts in the solenoid burning out and that a new starter will fix the problem. But of course the issue is for how long if you still have fundamental wiring and grounding issues in the entire electrical system. It will effectively make your starter a regular maintenance part.

I'm not going to begin to think about trying to rewire a new modern truck, that's what all my projects GM trucks are for. Haha Let alone risk the dealership claiming that an improved grounding system is to blame for other issues that may arise. So I think I'm going to look into double grounding all the contacts I see, so is not to cut up any looms or take apart in place harnesses.

Thanks. Appreciate the reply. So I'm a C+ mechanic at best but I know my limits. If you have any ideas for improving/maintaining the ground issue I'm all for it.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[kapinallinen2]

My ground to body contacts looked okay

Must disagree on that.
I would thoroughly clean that ground connection and apply silver grease to all mating surfaces and the threads on the stud.

 

[ZombieSlayer]

Ditto, that is not an "ok" ground connection. It's a "good enough for a holiday weekend" ground connection.

 

[TBMSport]

So I noticed that my USB connection in the truck and phone charger work flawlessly again. Over the past few months, it would intermittently refused to charge or connect to my phone wirelessly or with wire. So as I I already ordered some grounding straps, upon popping the hood and doing some inspection as to where I could install them I couldn't help but notice that some of my painted bolts appear to be scratched as if a tool have been over it. Now I don't know if it was removed to do some Ram test procedure to isolate/diagnose the starter, or if it was loose in the first place. But I find it all a bit more than coincidental