What would you prefer?

[Jedi9]

I'm not sure how Ram can put out new motors that have worse MPGs, I thought there were EPA standards they had to meet, the reason I heard they keep going to thinner and thinner oils. Unless by putting out hybrids and EVs they can offset the hurricane mileage

 

[Dewey]

I'm not sure how Ram can put out new motors that have worse MPGs, I thought there were EPA standards they had to meet, the reason I heard they keep going to thinner and thinner oils. Unless by putting out hybrids and EVs they can offset the hurricane mileage

They are rated higher than the Hemi but as we know they can put whatever number on the stickers they want. Very rare anybody actually gets that MPG.

 

[silver billet]

I'm not sure how Ram can put out new motors that have worse MPGs, I thought there were EPA standards they had to meet, the reason I heard they keep going to thinner and thinner oils. Unless by putting out hybrids and EVs they can offset the hurricane mileage

It's about emissions, not mpg. The hemi was designed 20 years ago and it simply cannot meet the new emissions standards.

In day to day driving, MPG will probably be very slightly better with the turbos, I'm going to guess 1 to 2 highway, if you can drive conservatively. If you tow or like to drive hard and fast you will always get worse MPG.

 

[DEG]

I thought there were EPA standards they had to meet...

They have to make fleet averages for the type of vehicle OR they pay a fine for each vehicle based on how much it's below the CAFE standard. For the typical Ram a little over $2000 of the price of each truck is to cover the EPA fine for not meeting CAFE standards.

 

[Jedi9]

That's incredible, who gets the money lol

 

[DEG]

That's incredible, who gets the money lol

It's a federal fine but I'm not sure how the government spends the money they receive.

The CAFE standard for light trucks in 2024 is 37.5 MPG. It's my understanding that if their fleet average meets that standard they don't pay any fines even if a few models fail to meet the standard. That's why manufactures have been pushing sales of electric vehicles; they drastically reduce their fleet averages.

If they fail to meet the standard for that category of vehicles, the fine is currently $5.50 for every 1/10s of an MPG below the standard times the number of vehicles sold in that category.

 

[Jedi9]

Wow, the standard is 37.5, wonder how many full size half ton trucks meet that standard

 

[Darksteel165]

Wow, the standard is 37.5, wonder how many full size half ton trucks meet that standard

None.

 

[Jedi9]

Lol, it appears the standard doesn't meet the definition of standard.

 

[E.Hands]

Lol, it appears the standard doesn't meet the definition of standard.

Perhaps it does in 2+2=5, Clown World!

 

[DEG]

Wow, the standard is 37.5, wonder how many full size half ton trucks meet that standard

Perhaps that's why they are all scrambling to produce, market and sell 100% electric pickups. Even if they only sell a few and it results in a 0.5 MPG improvement in their fleet average that saves them nearly $3 million in fines for every 100,000 trucks they sell. That savings adds up quick if you are selling more than half a million units per year.

 

[DEG]

Lol, it appears the standard doesn't meet the definition of standard.

It does. The noun "standard" means "a level of quality or attainment" or "a thing used as a measure, norm, or model...".

 

[mikeru82]

It's a federal fine but I'm not sure how the government spends the money they receive.

The CAFE standard for light trucks in 2024 is 37.5 MPG. It's my understanding that if their fleet average meets that standard they don't pay any fines even if a few models fail to meet the standard. That's why manufactures have been pushing sales of electric vehicles; they drastically reduce their fleet averages.

If they fail to meet the standard for that category of vehicles, the fine is currently $5.50 for every 1/10s of an MPG below the standard times the number of vehicles sold in that category.

If that's the case it would make no sense for Ram to switch to the Hurricane since the expected fuel economy is nearly the same as with the Hemi. Why spend millions to design an engine to replace an engine that has virtually the same fuel economy, for the purpose of improving average fleet fuel economy?

 

[Darksteel165]

If that's the case it would make no sense for Ram to switch to the Hurricane since the expected fuel economy is nearly the same as with the Hemi. Why spend millions to design an engine to replace an engine that has virtually the same fuel economy, for the purpose of improving average fleet fuel economy?

Exactly.

 

[DEG]

If that's the case it would make no sense for Ram to switch to the Hurricane since the expected fuel economy is nearly the same as with the Hemi. Why spend millions to design an engine to replace an engine that has virtually the same fuel economy, for the purpose of improving average fleet fuel economy?

Nearly the same is not the same. According to this story the they expect a 1 mpg improvement with the Hurricane over the Hemi. The $5.50 is for every 1/10th MPG below the standard times number of vehicles sold. So, that 1 mpg improvement can easily save them well over $30 million in fines annually.

Also, it would not surprise me if tougher emission pollution standards coincide with tougher CAFE MPG standards. It's my understanding the Hurricane engine is a much cleaner engine than the Hemi.

Though some here don't believe it, another of the reasons given for the switch is that the Hurricane engine is cheaper to build and maintain. They can offer an HO version that uses most of the same parts as the standard version. I don't know why Stellantis would lie about it being cheaper to build and maintain. It seems reasonable to believe a smaller inline 6 would be cheaper to manufacture even if you threw in a couple of turbos.

 

[silver billet]

Nearly the same is not the same. According to this story the they expect a 1 mpg improvement with the Hurricane over the Hemi. The $5.50 is for every 1/10th MPG below the standard times number of vehicles sold. So, that 1 mpg improvement can easily save them well over $30 million in fines annually.

Also, it would not surprise me if tougher emission pollution standards coincide with tougher CAFE MPG standards. It's my understanding the Hurricane engine is a much cleaner engine than the Hemi.

Though some here don't believe it, another of the reasons given for the switch is that the Hurricane engine is cheaper to build and maintain. They can offer an HO version that uses most of the same parts as the standard version. I don't know why Stellantis would lie about it being cheaper to build and maintain. It seems reasonable to believe a smaller inline 6 would be cheaper to manufacture even if you threw in a couple of turbos.

Cheaper to build, who cares. I'm sure it's in between the 3.6 pentastar and the 5.7 hemi, so ... negligible.

Cheaper to maintain, as in me the end user paying less money keeping it on the road? Not a chance.

 

[E.Hands]

If that's the case it would make no sense for Ram to switch to the Hurricane since the expected fuel economy is nearly the same as with the Hemi. Why spend millions to design an engine to replace an engine that has virtually the same fuel economy, for the purpose of improving average fleet fuel economy?

Is it the better/less emissions?

In my lizard brain it's hard to imagine that the smaller SST puts out more power & torque and has cleaner emissions.

 

[DEG]

Cheaper to build, who cares. I'm sure it's in between the 3.6 pentastar and the 5.7 hemi, so ... negligible.

I get it. You've made it clear you hate the idea of a 6 cyl replacing the Hemi so wish to believe in things you don't really know and believe those writing on the subject are just lying to you.

What seems "negligible" to a you may not be negligible to a manufacture who can multiply a small savings times the number of vehicles they produce. Even if the savings is only $100 per engine that translates to tens of millions of dollars to the manufacture.

Cheaper to maintain, as in me the end user paying less money keeping it on the road? Not a chance.

Exactly why do you believe there is "not a chance" that it will be cheaper to maintain? It will cost about $200 more just to purchase 16 Iridium spark plugs for the Hemi.

 

[E.Hands]

Exactly why do you believe there is "not a chance" that it will be cheaper to maintain? It will cost about $200 more just to purchase 16 Iridium spark plugs for the Hemi.

I'm purely just guessing but higher grade fuel & more frequent oil changes more important with forced induction?

-devil's advocate w/ a fear of more complexity.

 

[silver billet]

I get it. You've made it clear you hate the idea of a 6 cyl replacing the Hemi so wish to believe in things you don't really know and believe those writing on the subject are just lying to you.

What seems "negligible" to a you may not be negligible to a manufacture who can multiply a small savings times the number of vehicles they produce. Even if the savings is only $100 per engine that translates to tens of millions of dollars to the manufacture.

That's pretty naive. Manufacturers aren't swallowing the cost of making an engine, they pass it directly onto the dude buying it. Not only do they pass the cost on, they charge extra for it and make even more money. Emissions and MPG rules aside, if it weren't for all that nonsense they would love to sell us hemis over the pentastar as its an excuse to raise the price and increase profits.

Exactly why do you believe there is "not a chance" that it will be cheaper to maintain? It will cost about $200 more just to purchase 16 Iridium spark plugs for the Hemi.

Why don't you buy one and find out? If you've watched any engineering interviews done recently like the one TFL did with Ford when they came out the 7.3, you'll realize that cost of ownership/maintenance was one of the major reasons they went with a simple pushrod v8 and not a tiny turbo dialed up to level 12.