What Fuel is everyone using?

[5thGenRebel_AMK]

Absolutely, because Costco isn't tied to a name brand, they don't have "built in" inflated fees. Their top tier rated 87 is still 40 cents cheaper than ARCO in my area. Right now I can get Costco 87 at $2.59. Cheapest ARCo is at $2.99, the Cheapest name brand Chevron is at $3.29! If we look at 89 octane, the cheapest is ARCO at $3.19, which is still .40 cents more than Costco's 91 octane! These prices are all within a 2-mile radius.

At the .70 cent difference between Costco and cheapest name brand (Chevron), that's a $14 savings for 20 gallon fill-up, that's insane. And both are rated Top Tier.

wow thats awesome. I don't really care where i get my gas as long as it's top tier, but unfortunately sams club and food stores that have gas points/cheap gas dont use top tier fuel.

 

[TLOC]

Absolutely, because Costco isn't tied to a name brand, they don't have "built in" inflated fees. Their top tier rated 87 is still 40 cents cheaper than ARCO in my area. Right now I can get Costco 87 at $2.59. Cheapest ARCo is at $2.99, the Cheapest name brand Chevron is at $3.29! If we look at 89 octane, the cheapest is ARCO at $3.19, which is still .40 cents more than Costco's 91 octane! These prices are all within a 2-mile radius.

At the .70 cent difference between Costco and cheapest name brand (Chevron), that's a $14 savings for 20 gallon fill-up, that's insane. And both are rated Top Tier.

WOW, where do you live SD Rebel? I got reg 87 gas last week at Costco here in Greensboro, NC for $1.54!!!

 

[SD Rebel]

WOW, where do you live SD Rebel? I got reg 87 gas last week at Costco here in Greensboro, NC for $1.54!!!

San Diego, California. The California should answer your question, lol. Besides the taxes, we have a literally monopoly of name brand gas stations who keep prices high, Chevron, Shell, etc. own 90% of the stations and keep things high. Factor in state specific blends and environmental limited refineries which occasional shut down for "maintenance" which also keeps prices high.

Trust me, $2.59 is dancing in the streets cheap around here, yet so many folks in the state drive gas guzzle vehicles, myself included.

Surprisingly, we are not currently the most expensive state, though it feels like it.

 

[RebelWraith]

93 Octane from Costco with 93 Tune on the Trinity II from DiabloSport.

 

[CornTrucks]

Can you supply a link about that? That's the opposite of what I've ever been told or read, especially in regards to small engines (2-cycle and motorcycle) and any car designed only for E10.

I know the motorcycle industry has been the most against E15 or higher due to blender pumps use and possible too much ethanol getting into the fuel system.

In this case I meant for the old timers at the auto and Ag parts stores to be my source. There is a lot of disinformation about ethanol (usually from someone either trying to sell a product using fear, or in the oil business and just angry that ethanol exists) and being involved in both oil and agriculture myself I feel like I can be fairly unbiased about it.

Ethanol is free of particulates when it burns, and increases the completeness with which gasoline burns in combination with ethanol, reducing carbon monoxide. Chemically, ethanol works to remove sludge and deposits. This is where a lot of the confusion rests, in that when ethanol was first used, it cleaned up fuel systems and could dislodge deposits in older vehicles that had built up over years of using non-ethanol fuels. This is the only situation I am aware of where ethanol could trigger a problem that I would say was caused by using non-ethanol fuels. Because ethanol can pick up moisture it acts as a drying agent and removes water as it is used. Ethanol fuels also have corrosion specifications they must meet the same as any other fuel.

I don’t know much about small engines, and I know less about motorcycles, but I could see them tending to be less sophisticated and able to respond properly especially to higher ethanol blends. That said, I use E10 in all my small motors on the farm without any issues.


Short version: in my opinion ethanol in combination with gasoline improves the product. Gasoline fuels always have additives, and ethanol is a cost effective way to get multiple positive effects.

 

[ABQ Mike]

unless its been specifically tuned for higher octane, you will see no benifit. You are right about the knock sensor. But again, chrysler would have had to tune make performance on 89 octane for it to be beneficial. And if they did, 91-93 wont make abit of different other then making your wallet lighter.

How many data logs have you looked at to see what timing is doing in the vehicle on each octane?

 

[ABQ Mike]

In this case I meant for the old timers at the auto and Ag parts stores to be my source. There is a lot of disinformation about ethanol (usually from someone either trying to sell a product using fear, or in the oil business and just angry that ethanol exists) and being involved in both oil and agriculture myself I feel like I can be fairly unbiased about it.

Ethanol is free of particulates when it burns, and increases the completeness with which gasoline burns in combination with ethanol, reducing carbon monoxide. Chemically, ethanol works to remove sludge and deposits. This is where a lot of the confusion rests, in that when ethanol was first used, it cleaned up fuel systems and could dislodge deposits in older vehicles that had built up over years of using non-ethanol fuels. This is the only situation I am aware of where ethanol could trigger a problem that I would say was caused by using non-ethanol fuels. Because ethanol can pick up moisture it acts as a drying agent and removes water as it is used. Ethanol fuels also have corrosion specifications they must meet the same as any other fuel.

I don’t know much about small engines, and I know less about motorcycles, but I could see them tending to be less sophisticated and able to respond properly especially to higher ethanol blends. That said, I use E10 in all my small motors on the farm without any issues.


Short version: in my opinion ethanol in combination with gasoline improves the product. Gasoline fuels always have additives, and ethanol is a cost effective way to get multiple positive effects.

Youre correct on some parts, however your sample is also based solely on, as you said, 10% ethanol. The higher blends are where the issues come in. Before you reply with anything negative, keep in mind, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE Ethanol, and would run it on every vehicle if I could, however when converting peoples vehicles to run on it (usually performance vehicles), I always try to give them factual data about it before doing so, because most regret it.

First off, Ethanol creates about 40% less energy than Gasoline, so it requires 40% more to achieve the same power... This means 40% less fuel economy, and burning 40% more fuel with respects to exhaust gas and emissions.

Second, as you stated, it absorbs water (Hygroscopic). This means it isnt safe to store for extended periods of time, especially in your tank.

Third, it can, and will, eat just about anything it comes into contact with, which is why so many companies make Ethanol specific injectors, fuel pumps, lines etc. Does it clean? Absolutely... and likely most new vehicles are setup to where it won't do any harm, however prior to the flex fuel days, most vehicles weren't properly setup for ethanol, and higher blends (beyond 10%) weren't a good idea.

Fourth, as listed in number one, it is less efficient, and computers without an alcohol sensor cannot adjust properly for it (for the most part). Newer vehicles with Wideband O2 sensors have the ability to adjust for about 25%-30% ethanol without throwing a code because they can adjust the fuel trims accordingly, and adjust fueling at wide open throttle. Vehicles without Wideband sensors from the factory, or tuning to adjust for ethanol, are going to run lean when using ethanol. Will 10-15% hurt? Probably not as most vehicles are rich from the factory anyway, however going beyond that, you could be causing a problem. In addition, even if your vehicle can compensate, keep in mind that since it does require 40% more ethanol, often your fuel system may not be able to produce enough fuel as required by the engine to run properly, especially on modified vehicles.

Fifth - The reason E85 is as high as ethanol blends go on the common market is because of the starting issues your car will have. In cold weather, Ethanol can sludge up (think of putting vodka in the freezer... it won't freeze, but it gets very thick). Starting your vehicle can take a bit, and it runs terrible until the engine and fuel lines heat up. It can also have a lot of issues with vapor lock if your vehicle is hot, you shut it off, then go to restart quickly. These are mostly seen in converted ethanol vehicles where tuning and equipment isnt specifically made for Ethanol, but the gasoline additive is strictly for starting purposes.

This may surprise you, but the government isnt running 10-15% ethanol in your vehicle because its cleaner, or in any way superior, they do it because its a cheap way to boost octane content. Ethanol does have an octane rating over 110, so even a small mixture is enough to boost octane levels. You will notice in states like Nebraska and others who have 0% ethanol fuel next to 10% ethanol, that they may have the same octane rating, but the non ethanol fuel is always more expensive.

Now with all the negativity in mind, Ethanol does have a lot of incredible benefits, although most are only seen by vehicles running superchargers/turbochargers, or extremely high compression ratios.

 

[ABQ Mike]

definitely can't hurt. i run 91 from sunoco in my truck. wish we had a costco around here. my cost/gallon is usually mid 3's

While in this specific case, I do believe 91 benefits our vehicles, running octane higher than needed WILL reduce performance... the main purpose of higher octane is to slow down the combustion process, which allows for more timing to be used (or in the case of boosted vehicles, more boost safely), and create more power. If the timing isnt increased (either by knock sensors adding it, or by aftermarket tuning), all youre doing is reducing power. Typically the 89-91 jump won't see a ton of difference, however vehicles meant to use 87 can lose power running 91 or 93, and those who put "race fuel" in for fun, are losing quite a bit.
On most newer vehicles (about 2013 and newer, but that varies on computer technology by brand of vehicle), timing is quite a bit more aggressive on performance engines, and the knock sensors have a lot more to do with pulling for low octane, and adding for high octane. On older vehicles, knock sensors were typically only used to pull timing for knock (detonation), and the usually went from 0-12 degrees of retard, but did not have the ability to add timing. With newer vehicles (BMW, GM, Ford, Dodge and others), if the computer "sees" it can safely add timing for a More efficient burn, often it will. Are you going to see a 100 horsepower difference because you ran race fuel? No... but specically under loaded conditions, such as towing, incline, or even if youre heavy footed at part throttle, you will notice better response and power. Peak power likely less than 10 horsepower tops because were talking about 1-2 degrees max at peak, but to someone like me who has been tuning for about 15 years, I see the benefits. You may not, and others may insist they know better, but if youre bored and want a science experiment, run a couple tanks of 91 through your vehicle and get some sort of scanner that can watch absolute timing and data log it, then switch back to 89 or 87 and do the same scans in the same area and see how much its reduced.

 

[Snakes709]

How many data logs have you looked at to see what timing is doing in the vehicle on each octane?

Quite alot actually. Between my bike and car, have an entire hard drive full of data logs. Also able to compare what each vehicle is doing when comparing the same octane from different stations. The car hates 94 octane from petro canada and gets up to 7 counts of knock. But loves 94 octane from Husky.

 

[Ram41313]

Sams club by me this morning 1.14 for 87

 

[Timeless]

Sams club by me this morning 1.14 for 87

If only your location was filled out in your profile.

A lot of users forget that or maybe it is on purpose.

 

[Ram41313]

If only your location was filled out in your profile.

A lot of users forget that or maybe it is on purpose.

Michigan

 

[TLOC]

San Diego, California. The California should answer your question, lol. Besides the taxes, we have a literally monopoly of name brand gas stations who keep prices high, Chevron, Shell, etc. own 90% of the stations and keep things high. Factor in state specific blends and environmental limited refineries which occasional shut down for "maintenance" which also keeps prices high.

Trust me, $2.59 is dancing in the streets cheap around here, yet so many folks in the state drive gas guzzle vehicles, myself included.

Surprisingly, we are not currently the most expensive state, though it feels like it.

I get it now, LIBERALVILLE, CA, couldn't afford to live there, couldn't pay me to live there and do not want to live there! However I have my brother, retired from the Navy at 45 yrs old, in San Diego and sister in Simi Valley, God Bless them...

 

[SD Rebel]

I get it now, LIBERALVILLE, CA, couldn't afford to live there, couldn't pay me to live there and do not want to live there! However I have my brother, retired from the Navy at 45 yrs old, in San Diego and sister in Simi Valley, God Bless them...

Oh I get you, not originally from California, but was in them military like your brother and probably fell in love with San DIego and didn't want to live anywhere else. I've been all over the World, San Diego is the place where I want to be.

Sure my AR-15 has 10 round mags, have to smog test any car over 5 years old every other year, cheap gas is $2.55 cents, and the crappiest house in a crappy neighborhood cost over $400,000. But I don't think I can live anywhere else, at least in the State. San Diego is the largest city/county in the United States with a Republican mayor, huge military presence both active and retired. Though to be honest, there are a lot of rural areas in California that aren't that different from the other state where I'm from.

It's just Sacramento, San Francisco and Los Angeles that gets all the headlines and political clout.

 

[Timeless]

Michigan

Perhaps add that to your profile so the next time you need help people won't need to ask.

Also it helps if people make a signature with their truck details.