Stellantis has threatened to move Ram 1500 production to Mexico, union leader says

[jimothy]

Where did you get 273,000 employees? I don't remember the number, because it was a couple years ago, but the number I found was under 100,000. And I said top 10 salaries, with bonuses. So it wasn't $10. It was a couple years ago.

Stellantis' employee volume 2023 | Statista

In the 2023 fiscal year, 258,275 employees worked for Stellantis.

www.statista.com

By the way, you did say the CEO’s salary would pay for the raises, not the top 10. But even supposing there were only 100,000 employees, and pretending that each of those top ten also were paid $25M each, you’re still looking at about a $1/hr raise. And you only get to that $1 figure with several fictions, including the idea that their top 10 executives would work without any salary.

Anyway, forgive my nitpicking. The point is, if you come up with astonishing figures, particularly ones that evoke strong emotion, look at them skeptically and check your math.

In other words, don’t be like MSNBC.

 

[kdoublep]

Unfortunately that got by most people.

 

[Dewey]

‘We are burned out’: UAW ready to take on automakers in contract negotiations | Automotive industry | The Guardian

Amid record profits, workers want to roll back concessions made to auto industry after the 2008 economic recession

amp.theguardian.com

 

[6of36]

Stellantis' employee volume 2023 | Statista

In the 2023 fiscal year, 258,275 employees worked for Stellantis.

www.statista.com

By the way, you did say the CEO’s salary would pay for the raises, not the top 10. But even supposing there were only 100,000 employees, and pretending that each of those top ten also were paid $25M each, you’re still looking at about a $1/hr raise. And you only get to that $1 figure with several fictions, including the idea that their top 10 executives would work without any salary.

Anyway, forgive my nitpicking. The point is, if you come up with astonishing figures, particularly ones that evoke strong emotion, look at them skeptically and check your math.

In other words, don’t be like MSNBC.

How many UAW workers does Stellantis have?


Ford's annual filing showed about 57,000 of its hourly employees in the United States were represented by the UAW, while the UAW represents about 43,000 U.S. hourly workers at Stellantis.Jul 13, 2023

I wasn't talking world wide, I'm talking American. And the 2021 CEO made 54.1 million. Now they use european people at cut rate, because the rest of the world CEOs don't make the ridiculous pay they make here. In japan, it's law, the CEO can only make 15 times the workers. Unlike the 365 times they do here.

 

[wallyuwl]

The UAW is not the best example of a union, most unions aren't out to just screw the company, like they are, but unions did not kill Detroit. Detroit's former mayors did that.

Did you see the new UPS deal?

 

[6of36]

Did you see the new UPS deal?

No, but the news just had about U of M getting 80% raise.

 

[jimothy]

How many UAW workers does Stellantis have?


Ford's annual filing showed about 57,000 of its hourly employees in the United States were represented by the UAW, while the UAW represents about 43,000 U.S. hourly workers at Stellantis.Jul 13, 2023

I wasn't talking world wide, I'm talking American. And the 2021 CEO made 54.1 million. Now they use european people at cut rate, because the rest of the world CEOs don't make the ridiculous pay they make here. In japan, it's law, the CEO can only make 15 times the workers. Unlike the 365 times they do here.

Okay, let's do the math on those numbers: $54.1 million divided by 43,000 workers equals $1,258 per worker. At 2,000 hours/year, that works out to 63¢/hour. Better than 5¢, but hardly life changing.

But there are several problems with these numbers too, aside from the fact they we're still far from $10/hour.

First, both Michael Manley (the former FCA CEO who was paid $54.1M in 2021) and Carlos Tavares, were or are CEOs of multinational auto companies based in Europe. So why, in this hypothetical, are their salaries being given only to American union workers?

Second, they're both European (Manley is British, and Tavares is Portuguese). The 365 figure comes from Tavares's 2022 compensation at Stellantis, so maybe the rest of the world isn't so cut rate anyway? You implied that Stellantis went from an expensive American CEO to a "cut rate" European CEO, when in fact they went from an expensive European CEO to an expensive European CEO.

Third, a large part of the $54.1M figure for Manley's 2021 compensation was an exit package, which is of course a one-time pay. So the UAW workers wouldn't have gotten a 63¢ hourly raise: If we imagine Manley gave up his entire salary and bonuses, they would have gotten a one time $1,258 bonus. Then, if Tavares also gave up his annual salary and bonues, the UAW workers would get a 29¢ hourly raise ($25M divided amongst the 43,000 UAW workers).

You're still a long, long way from $10/hour, even if you go the next 9 executives deep. It might be time to admit you made a mistake and move on.

 

[arod412]

Corporate greed at its finest...lots of republican traits here...with big salaries up top and little for the working man here. The trickle down effect isn't happening as promised.

I can't fault the union here asking for better pay, and better conditions but if your going to go on Facebook live and trash a contract from the Corporate boss....your going to look bad. When thousands of jobs are lost.

Hate to bring politics into it, but that's exactly what is happening. Republicans kinda shooting themselves in the foot because they can't have both Corporate making big money, and support unions at the same time.


2022 Ram Big Horn Back Country
2016 Dodge Charger scat pack
2021 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara

 

[6of36]

Okay, let's do the math on those numbers: $54.1 million divided by 43,000 workers equals $1,258 per worker. At 2,000 hours/year, that works out to 63¢/hour. Better than 5¢, but hardly life changing.

But there are several problems with these numbers too, aside from the fact they we're still far from $10/hour.

First, both Michael Manley (the former FCA CEO who was paid $54.1M in 2021) and Carlos Tavares, were or are CEOs of multinational auto companies based in Europe. So why, in this hypothetical, are their salaries being given only to American union workers?

Second, they're both European (Manley is British, and Tavares is Portuguese). The 365 figure comes from Tavares's 2022 compensation at Stellantis, so maybe the rest of the world isn't so cut rate anyway? You implied that Stellantis went from an expensive American CEO to a "cut rate" European CEO, when in fact they went from an expensive European CEO to an expensive European CEO.

Third, a large part of the $54.1M figure for Manley's 2021 compensation was an exit package, which is of course a one-time pay. So the UAW workers wouldn't have gotten a 63¢ hourly raise: If we imagine Manley gave up his entire salary and bonuses, they would have gotten a one time $1,258 bonus. Then, if Tavares also gave up his annual salary and bonues, the UAW workers would get a 29¢ hourly raise ($25M divided amongst the 43,000 UAW workers).

You're still a long, long way from $10/hour, even if you go the next 9 executives deep. It might be time to admit you made a mistake and move on.

So the numbers don't add up. Like I said It was years ago that I looked. It's still ridiculous that any CEO should make that money, while the people making them that money are being paid .3% of their salary. Cars are too expensive? Simple solution. Make top pay 15 times workers pay for the CEO, and scale down from there.

 

[jimothy]

So the numbers don't add up. Like I said It was years ago that I looked. It's still ridiculous that any CEO should make that money, while the people making them that money are being paid .3% of their salary. Cars are too expensive? Simple solution. Make top pay 15 times workers pay for the CEO, and scale down from there.

I’ll stop after this, but the numbers don’t add up there, either. Stellantis sold 6 millions vehicles in 2022. So if Taraves sacrificed his salary and gave it all to customers instead of workers, each customer would get about $4 back.

There may be arguments that CEO compensation is too high, but worker wages and customer prices are not among them.

 

[kzielu]

Corporate greed at its finest...lots of republican traits here...with big salaries up top and little for the working man here. The trickle down effect isn't happening as promised.

I can't fault the union here asking for better pay, and better conditions but if your going to go on Facebook live and trash a contract from the Corporate boss....your going to look bad. When thousands of jobs are lost.

Hate to bring politics into it, but that's exactly what is happening. Republicans kinda shooting themselves in the foot because they can't have both Corporate making big money, and support unions at the same time.


2022 Ram Big Horn Back Country
2016 Dodge Charger scat pack
2021 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara

It always baffles me when people that otherwise are very pro-capitalism can't recognize when something is the clearest example of capitalism at work - one they're voted for many times.

 

[Dewey]

US Auto Workers Vote To Authorize Strike If Contract Talks Fail

Workers at Detroit's three auto giants overwhelmingly voted to authorize union leaders to call a strike if there is no contract by next month's deadline, the union announced Friday.

www.barrons.com

 

[boogielander]

not popular opinions but here i'm gonna say it.

with the way trucks rolling off the plant these days i'm surprised they got the balls to ask for a raise.
much like how mcdonald employees can't properly fill an order with the correct items that are printed out right in front of them and ask for a $15/ hr rate.

also funny how people are so fixated on CEO's payrate... CEO's getting paid CEO money because they either know how to kiss-*** to get the job or how to actually do the job. I mean, if people think there's no special obligations and job requirements to warrant that pay rate then... why are they not CEOs of multinational companies?

anyways, as a consumer I'm all for Made in USA products and I understand there's a cost for that. HOWEVER, if I'm going to pay for something that's overpriced due to union's involvement and NOT reflect in quality, then I don't mind having Mexicans make my products if they can maintain the same level of lack of quality that their American counterparts are producing.

 

[dannydyn]

not popular opinions but here i'm gonna say it.

with the way trucks rolling off the plant these days i'm surprised they got the balls to ask for a raise.
much like how mcdonald employees can't properly fill an order with the correct items that are printed out right in front of them and ask for a $15/ hr rate.

also funny how people are so fixated on CEO's payrate... CEO's getting paid CEO money because they either know how to kiss-*** to get the job or how to actually do the job. I mean, if people think there's no special obligations and job requirements to warrant that pay rate then... why are they not CEOs of multinational companies?

anyways, as a consumer I'm all for Made in USA products and I understand there's a cost for that. HOWEVER, if I'm going to pay for something that's overpriced due to union's involvement and NOT reflect in quality, then I don't mind having Mexicans make my products if they can maintain the same level of lack of quality that their American counterparts are producing.

I'm with you, I just question whether the quality, or lack thereof is a result of overall dissatisfaction with the work conditions and pay, than anything else. I mean if you show up miserable to your miserable job, how much effort and quality would you be willing to put out? Do you think the average Joe on the assembly line gives a 5hit about our experience as consumers? Not like they get a kick back for every satisfied consumer. They are there to just punch in and do whatever they get paid for - assemble cars. Let's face it, the average UAW is not a well educated, successful person. If he was, he wouldn't be working on the assembly line, he would be director somewhere up the ladder, or a dentist, or an attorney. This is not meant as a diss against the average blue color assembly line employee. It's just a fact - these are good, hard working, blue color employees. The fact that they are unionized and have so much leverage over the big three is a different story altogether. But at the end of the day, the average UAW employee cares only about his ability to put food on the table, take care of his family, and make sure he has a good retirement and health coverage plans. The quality of your Laramie, Limited, Lariant, Wrangler, Silverado, or what have you is the least of his or her concern.

 

[RAL]

I don’t think having UAW employees adds anything from a quality perspective. BMW, Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, and other foreign makes I am probably forgetting are non-union w/r/t their US facilities, and the cars are all generally well received in the market. That being said, I strongly prefer to have my car or truck built in the US, but that does not mean UAW. The UAW is probably one of the reason that companies started to look to make stuff offshore. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, so to speak.

Also, all this class warfare jealousy and nonsense has to stop. The reason CEOs get paid so much money is the same reason NFL quarterbacks or elite MLB pitchers make boatloads of money: there are very few good ones and when they “deliver,” the profitability for the teams, and the companies, far exceeds anything paid to the CEO and other key managers and players. Those returns inure to the benefits of the shareholders, many of whom are small retail investors who hold the stock directly or indirectly as part of retirement savings, the current and new employees in the form of stable employment at market wages, the government in the form of tax revenues at the federal, state, and local levels, and other companies and businesses that directly (parts suppliers, guys who sell drinks at a ball game when the team is winning so the games are full) and indirectly participate in the benefits to communities that host viable and successful businesses. And CEO compensation is not set by the CEO; there is a board of directors, typically comprised of experienced business people, who meet to set the pay. It has become fashionable today to bash capitalism in favor of some sort of quasi socialism, but there is a reason socialism has generally failed everywhere it takes root. The UAW is basically a socialist organization in many respects trying to gain credibility under the banner of the flag and average workers. Want to see the damage they have done? Spend some quality time in Detroit proper.

 

[6of36]

Have any of you bashing the workers ever been in a plant? I have been in many. The line workers deserve every penny they get. There are a lot of terrible jobs at some of those plants. Sure, there are easy jobs, that people with seniority can eventually get to. Skilled trades basically do very little, since the implementation of the "on time" system, they sit around doing nothing, until something breaks, most of the day, but that is by the company's choice. The UAW is bad in some ways, that make them look bad, like making the company keep employees, after being caught, drinking, or doing drugs on the job. I've seen them make the company rehire a skilled tradesman, who was caught, punching in, going home, and coming back at quitting time, to punch out. That's outright theft. But over all, they are fighting for workers to earn a fair wage. They gave up a lot during the bankruptcy to keep the company in business, like the two tier pay system, that should be eliminated, and are trying to keep up with the 25% inflation, that their last contract didn't expect. The company has made billions off of their concessions, and it's time to bring them to fair wages. The quality issues, are not the worker fault, they assemble the parts to build the vehicles. The quality, goes back to engineering, and outsourced parts. The company still builds the body parts, but almost everything else, is outsourced. I worked in the axle plant. torn down and outsourced. I worked in the glass plant. Torn down and outsourced. I worked in the engine plant. Not sure if it still stands, but the engines are now made in Mexico. People don't realize, no matter what you do for work, your income is based on union wages. The workers just want to make a living. If you think they have it so good, go apply.

 

[RAL]

i am not anti worker, I am pro American worker. Stated differently, do not conflate pro worker with pro UAW or pro union. Non union employees working for other majors have not concluded the UAW is beneficial or they would have organized. The threat to move to Mexico is real, and everyone loses if that happens. UAW bluster doesn’t change that. Again, spent a lot of time in Detroit earlier in my career working in this area. The carnage there was avoidable.

Oh, and as far as what the workers have given up in the bankruptcy, check your facts. The Obama administration ensured the UAW got $20billion from GM to fund a trust for union benefits, which essentially gave them a higher priority status than the senior bond holders. And a promise to increase fuel efficiency. So to protect the union and to promote the green agenda and make sure the new GM built little sh#tboxes that no one wanted, the Obama Administration disregarded the tenets of existing insolvency law / hierarchy to reach this deal. The line workers did take pay concessions to fund this UAW deal because not putting some haircut on labor costs would make resturcturing impossible and almost certainly ensure that the senior bond holders balk and force a liquidation. So not to be disrespectful, but cry me a river. In most other cases, the company would have been liquidated and all these people would have lost their jobs, with perhaps the prospect of being hired back as non union employees for a restructured entity resulting from whatever entity picked up the assets in the auction. Has the UAW learned anything from turning the American automakers into, as Rick Wagoner stated, healthcare and benefit companies that also build cars? Probably not, but now with the trade agreements the way they are the carmakers can move to Mexico and who loses - the regular workers that are supposed to be protected. The UAW is a disaster and has been for 50 years.

 

[6of36]

i am not anti worker, I am pro American worker. Stated differently, do not conflate pro worker with pro UAW or pro union. Non union employees working for other majors have not concluded the UAW is beneficial or they would have organized. The threat to move to Mexico is real, and everyone loses if that happens. UAW bluster doesn’t change that. Again, spent a lot of time in Detroit earlier in my career working in this area. The carnage there was avoidable.

The carnage is from management, not the line workers.

 

[boogielander]

I'm with you, I just question whether the quality, or lack thereof is a result of overall dissatisfaction with the work conditions and pay, than anything else. I mean if you show up miserable to your miserable job, how much effort and quality would you be willing to put out? Do you think the average Joe on the assembly line gives a 5hit about our experience as consumers? Not like they get a kick back for every satisfied consumer. They are there to just punch in and do whatever they get paid for - assemble cars. Let's face it, the average UAW is not a well educated, successful person. If he was, he wouldn't be working on the assembly line, he would be director somewhere up the ladder, or a dentist, or an attorney. This is not meant as a diss against the average blue color assembly line employee. It's just a fact - these are good, hard working, blue color employees. The fact that they are unionized and have so much leverage over the big three is a different story altogether. But at the end of the day, the average UAW employee cares only about his ability to put food on the table, take care of his family, and make sure he has a good retirement and health coverage plans. The quality of your Laramie, Limited, Lariant, Wrangler, Silverado, or what have you is the least of his or her concern.

i do agree to some extend that quality is not their major concern regarding assembling line workers.
i guess i forgot to mention (it was a long long day of work) that while i do agree that every man should get the best what he can get to put food on the table, be realistic about it.

Or let someone else who can do the same job for less money. And that is coming from a blue collared worker myself.

 

[RamGuy32]

The UAW killed Detroit.

As long as stuff is made in the Americas, and especially Mexico I'm good with it. I'm tired of supporting China who has no interest in being our ally, friend, or even civil unless we bow to their whims. That said, jobs in Mexico means that Mexicans do not have to leave their beautiful country that we all vacation in to come here to find work to support their families. Money there, money not in China, and still lower prices for us. Yes we will feel the job impacts but until we realize that higher wages do not always equal a better life, this will happen and it is a double edged sword.