Rear diff issue after engine replacement

[Ramitinher]

Why didnt the tow truck driver manually put it in neutral (via the manual release cable in the dash)? That would have eliminated any strain on the drivetrain. Sounds like a lack of knowledge on the tow truck driver.

The tow truck driver was clueless. But there was something else going on. There was no battery power due to some electrical issues, you could smell burnt conduit. And the mechanics at the dealership couldn’t get the manual release to engage either. They eventually figured out how to get it in neutral but it took them over 30 minutes and they had tools out

 

[Mountain Whiskey]

The motor can size, catch on fire rip the wheels off the truck and you could still pull the rip cord to put the transfer case in neutral.

Even if you wrapped a chain around the driveshaft and dragged the truck down the road until the tires blew out you are not hurting the gears in the differential.

Someone is blowing smoke up your butt about something. Like another poster pointed out, drain the oil and the engine does not get hot. The bearings are not like the bearings in skateboard wheels. They are just bronze bushings that hold a microscopic layer of oil for the crank to ride on.

The smoke was not from engine heat, it was from oil dumping on a hot exhaust.

If you did not see flames, the starter did not get hot and burn up. The rear did not get damaged by pulling off the road or splashing oil on it. Most of this does not add up.

 

[Ramitinher]

The motor can size, catch on fire rip the wheels off the truck and you could still pull the rip cord to put the transfer case in neutral.

Even if you wrapped a chain around the driveshaft and dragged the truck down the road until the tires blew out you are not hurting the gears in the differential.

Someone is blowing smoke up your butt about something. Like another poster pointed out, drain the oil and the engine does not get hot. The bearings are not like the bearings in skateboard wheels. They are just bronze bushings that hold a microscopic layer of oil for the crank to ride on.

The smoke was not from engine heat, it was from oil dumping on a hot exhaust.

If you did not see flames, the starter did not get hot and burn up. The rear did not get damaged by pulling off the road or splashing oil on it. Most of this does not add up.

I agree. Would the cord still work if it seized in gear and not park? I’m asking because if it was that simple then the dealers mechanic would’ve just pulled the cord and got it off the tow truck, they couldn’t get it off until they did something with tools. But all things considered I wouldn’t be surprised if it took them 30 minutes to find the cord, it was early morning and the mechanics that were there didn’t exude competence.

And I don’t think the dealer is being transparent, which is why I’m here trying to figure out wtf is going on. I don’t doubt there was smoke from the oil dripping out of the drain plug and hitting the catalytic converter (at 70mph climbing a hill). But there was electrical damage as well. There was a strong odor of burnt electrical conduit and the starter wouldn’t even click, maybe there were flames but I couldn’t se the engine through the smoke coming from the engine compartment so I wouldn’t know... the dealer tried to jump it with no effect. After I pulled over I looked under the truck and there was a trickle of oil, which could’ve been residual from splashing out and not from the oil pan. I think that the engine ran out of oil and kept enough oil film on bearings to run until I took my foot off the gas, which caused a lot of heat to radiantly transfer into the starter and caused it to fail. The service receipt I have reflects a new starter was purchased and installed so it definitely failed.

 

[BowDown]

I was driving up a pretty steep mountain grade in colorado at around 70 mph when this occurred. I think the engine got so hot that it fried the starter. Maybe just the solenoid wiring? I never tried to start it after it seized and when the dealer tried it wouldn’t turn or click or anything. There was also a strong smell of burning electrical conduit which the service manager thought was the starter. Either way they replaced the starter. I’m a firefighter and see cars on fire often, that longblock got so hot it put off a cloud of smoke for minutes that had me worried there was a fire starting..

Again, the engine getting hot is not frying a starter however your comment about the dealers effort answer your fried starter question. Repeatedly trying to start a seized engine with the starter and the starter not being able to turn a seized engine overloads the starter and burns it up, as I said in my above post

 

[BowDown]

The service manager had the tow truck driver try to shake it off the flat bed by shimmying the hydraulics. Maybe that caused an issue. And I’m no mechanic, simply trying to figure out how this happened because unfortunately I’ve lost faith in a service department that couldn’t tighten an oil pan bolt and then after having my truck for a month gave it to me with a failing rear diff. And I know I’m just some guy on a message board but I’m sure this is no coincidence. It’s directly related to this incident, that truck ran flawlessly before this and the day I got it back the rear diff issue was present

The only coincidence is the timing. One had nothing to do with the other

 

[BowDown]

I agree. Would the cord still work if it seized in gear and not park? I’m asking because if it was that simple then the dealers mechanic would’ve just pulled the cord and got it off the tow truck, they couldn’t get it off until they did something with tools. But all things considered I wouldn’t be surprised if it took them 30 minutes to find the cord, it was early morning and the mechanics that were there didn’t exude competence.

And I don’t think the dealer is being transparent, which is why I’m here trying to figure out wtf is going on. I don’t doubt there was smoke from the oil dripping out of the drain plug and hitting the catalytic converter (at 70mph climbing a hill). But there was electrical damage as well. There was a strong odor of burnt electrical conduit and the starter wouldn’t even click, maybe there were flames but I couldn’t se the engine through the smoke coming from the engine compartment so I wouldn’t know... the dealer tried to jump it with no effect. After I pulled over I looked under the truck and there was a trickle of oil, which could’ve been residual from splashing out and not from the oil pan. I think that the engine ran out of oil and kept enough oil film on bearings to run until I took my foot off the gas, which caused a lot of heat to radiantly transfer into the starter and caused it to fail. The service receipt I have reflects a new starter was purchased and installed so it definitely failed.

They obviously didn't know how to get the truck in mechanical neutral.
Smoke was coming from oil burning on the hot exhaust as MW said, nothing else. The electrical smell was from repeatedly trying to use the starter to free a seized engine which will burn up a starter and cause a smell of burning wires which would be limited to the starter main voltage cable from the battery, nothing else.
When a engine seizes, you will not hear any audible noises from the starter when it tries to start the engine. You may hear the bendix and the gear engage the flex plate but that's it, no dead battery clicks

I think that the engine ran out of oil and kept enough oil film on bearings to run until I took my foot off the gas, which caused a lot of heat to radiantly transfer into the starter and caused it to fail. The service receipt I have reflects a new starter was purchased and installed so it definitely failed.

What?, NO

 

[Andymax]

Curious how this turns out. My bet is that it's not the rear diff at all, but something else, likely reinstalled improperly. Tranny/Transfer case/drive shaft, etc etc. Regarding the starter, its possible that the oil vapor ignited enough to burn the insulation off the wires, which would explain both the smell and the lack of any noise or movement from the starter.

To say that a seizing engine won't create heat is simply false. Heat is created by friction, friction is caused by lack of lubrication. Whether there was enough time for that heat to cause ancillary damage is completely dependent on how long it took the engine to seize which is something no one knows specifically, so is foolish to debate.

OP - keep us posted and certainly engage RAMCares here on the forum.

Good Luck sir, hope you get everything resolved properly.

 

[Quint]

When I was 19, I ran tow trucks on the midnight shift to help pay for college. I didn't know a ton about cars. Most of the guys didn't, except Geronimo, who was a car nut who had been stabbed on the job six times and shot once (he loved to show us the scars). I quit the day after learning he was stabbed a seventh time!

Anyway, most tow trucks have a set of dollies to throw around the wheels. We even had the hydraulic dollies. That way you can easily move a vehicle that is in park, or drag it up onto a flatbed. I wouldn't expect any tow truck driver to know how to manually release a transmission, but they shouldn't have to because there are other standard methods of moving a vehicle that is not in neutral.

In my experience, most tow truck drivers (beyond the lack of knowledge) just didn't give a rats a$$. The tow truck crew across town was notorious for impounding cars and stealing whatever they could out of them. They were straight up crooks.

 

[BowDown]

Curious how this turns out. My bet is that it's not the rear diff at all, but something else, likely reinstalled improperly. Tranny/Transfer case/drive shaft, etc etc. Regarding the starter, its possible that the oil vapor ignited enough to burn the insulation off the wires, which would explain both the smell and the lack of any noise or movement from the starter.

To say that a seizing engine won't create heat is simply false. Heat is created by friction, friction is caused by lack of lubrication. Whether there was enough time for that heat to cause ancillary damage is completely dependent on how long it took the engine to seize which is something no one knows specifically, so is foolish to debate.

OP - keep us posted and certainly engage RAMCares here on the forum.

Good Luck sir, hope you get everything resolved properly.

Oil vapor is not going to burn off wire insulation.
A seized engine does get hot, not hot enough to start a fire or burn wires or fry a starter.
A seized engine may have oil and water temps elevated by a few degrees but that's it, it still has coolant cooling it so it's not going to glow red hot and a seized engine isn't going to run more than a few seconds before welding itself together.

Also, the definition of seizing is the cessation of movement, that in itself stops excessive heat from being produced.
A seizing engine may get 50° hotter than normal, again, the cooling system, before it locks solid but not near enough to catch anything on fire unless the cessation causes it to throw a rod and window will block and spray oil on hot exhaust manifolds

 

[bucolic]

Oil vapor is not going to burn off wire insulation.
A seized engine does get hot, not hot enough to start a fire or burn wires or fry a starter.
A seized engine may have oil and water temps elevated by a few degrees but that's it, it still has coolant cooling it so it's not going to glow red hot and a seized engine isn't going to run more than a few seconds before welding itself together.

Also, the definition of seizing is the cessation of movement, that in itself stops excessive heat from being produced.
A seizing engine may get 50° hotter than normal, again, the cooling system, before it locks solid but not near enough to catch anything on fire unless the cessation causes it to throw a rod and window will block and spray oil on hot exhaust manifolds

Hmmm. I think some form of fire may be possible. Especially since the OP mentioned copious amounts of smoke. Though the engine has coolant the exhaust does not. This engine ran quite some time at high RPM before failing so very possible the OP drove a bit before the engine seized up.

 

[Andymax]

Oil vapor is not going to burn off wire insulation.
A seized engine does get hot, not hot enough to start a fire or burn wires or fry a starter.
A seized engine may have oil and water temps elevated by a few degrees but that's it, it still has coolant cooling it so it's not going to glow red hot and a seized engine isn't going to run more than a few seconds before welding itself together.

Also, the definition of seizing is the cessation of movement, that in itself stops excessive heat from being produced.
A seizing engine may get 50° hotter than normal, again, the cooling system, before it locks solid but not near enough to catch anything on fire unless the cessation causes it to throw a rod and window will block and spray oil on hot exhaust manifolds

First, I didn't say oil vapor burned the wires...I said if oil vapor IGNITED that it *could* have burned the wires. But even I now doubt myself, but I'll get back to that.

Second...The amount of assumptions you make about knowing what happened in this case is staggering. Sometimes an engine seizing happens quickly, other times not. You have no way of knowing what happened in this case, yet you assume it was damn near immediate catastrophic mechanical breakdown, because it supports your other assumptions.

For example...

start watching around 1:35 to save yourself some time. You sticking with your assumption that there couldn't have been enough heat to cause other damage? Based on this, plus the many other similar videos I'm modifying my suggestion about the oil vapor igniting... It could have been heat from the headers...but I don't know.

All I'm trying to say is that it's POSSIBLE...

My point stands that you, nor I, simply cannot know what happened in the OP's situation.

 

[BowDown]

Hmmm. I think some form of fire may be possible. Especially since the OP mentioned copious amounts of smoke. Though the engine has coolant the exhaust does not. This engine ran quite some time at high RPM before failing so very possible the OP drove a bit before the engine seized up.

With all the "fuel" in an engine compartment, you really think a fire would have stopped with the starter cable?
Secondly, the video you post was an engine running at wot and 4400+ rpm, neither of which the op was doing.
The fire was from a rod that exited the block, the op hasn't mentioned rods coming out and the headers on fire from the extended WOT dyno pull.

 

[BowDown]

First, I didn't say oil vapor burned the wires...I said if oil vapor IGNITED that it *could* have burned the wires. But even I now doubt myself, but I'll get back to that.

Second...The amount of assumptions you make about knowing what happened in this case is staggering. Sometimes an engine seizing happens quickly, other times not. You have no way of knowing what happened in this case, yet you assume it was damn near immediate catastrophic mechanical breakdown, because it supports your other assumptions.

For example...

start watching around 1:35 to save yourself some time. You sticking with your assumption that there couldn't have been enough heat to cause other damage? Based on this, plus the many other similar videos I'm modifying my suggestion about the oil vapor igniting... It could have been heat from the headers...but I don't know.

All I'm trying to say is that it's POSSIBLE...

My point stands that you, nor I, simply cannot know what happened in the OP's situation.

I'm not making any assumptions, I factually know what causes these failures, why, because I do this every weekend.
Now, relative to the op, these engines have oil pressure sensors that when the pressure goes to zero, the engine is supposed to be shut down by the pcm. That fact suggests that this seizure happened fairly quickly as most modern (90's to current) have this safety feature built in and won't allow what you just saw in the video.

Third, there's no way oil vapor could have burned starter motor cables or any other cables.

Now, with that said, detail to me how a modern engine ran with no oil for an extended period of time over riding the oil pressure safety switch.

I didn't say what happened, I gave a reasonable explanation given the comments made, my experience building engines and working on cars.

But do look up an oil pressure safety switch and how it functions and post back

 

[bucolic]

With all the "fuel" in an engine compartment, you really think a fire would have stopped with the starter cable?
Secondly, the video you post was an engine running at wot and 4400+ rpm, neither of which the op was doing.
The fire was from a rod that exited the block, the op hasn't mentioned rods coming out and the headers on fire from the extended WOT dyno pull.

Very true. I would like to see know how long the OP was actually able to drive the truck with falling oil pressure until it seized up. That engine in the video running at redline ran for a full minute as the oil pressure dropped. Perhaps the OP at 2000 rpm's at 70 MPH drove for 10 minutes with the oil draining out and the exhaust pipes got hot enough in that time to melt or catch wires on fire that were in proximity of the exhaust.

Be interesting to see how long an engine, with coolant, being drove normally would run instead of the full throttle in the video. It amazed me it ran that long.

 

[Ramjack]

First, I didn't say oil vapor burned the wires...I said if oil vapor IGNITED that it *could* have burned the wires. But even I now doubt myself, but I'll get back to that.

Second...The amount of assumptions you make about knowing what happened in this case is staggering. Sometimes an engine seizing happens quickly, other times not. You have no way of knowing what happened in this case, yet you assume it was damn near immediate catastrophic mechanical breakdown, because it supports your other assumptions.

For example...

start watching around 1:35 to save yourself some time. You sticking with your assumption that there couldn't have been enough heat to cause other damage? Based on this, plus the many other similar videos I'm modifying my suggestion about the oil vapor igniting... It could have been heat from the headers...but I don't know.

All I'm trying to say is that it's POSSIBLE...

My point stands that you, nor I, simply cannot know what happened in the OP's situation.

Oh, come on. There are millions of engines manufactured every year. So by definition, they all fail the same way. It's just science, bruh.

 

[Ramitinher]

With all the "fuel" in an engine compartment, you really think a fire would have stopped with the starter cable?
Secondly, the video you post was an engine running at wot and 4400+ rpm, neither of which the op was doing.
The fire was from a rod that exited the block, the op hasn't mentioned rods coming out and the headers on fire from the extended WOT dyno pull.

I run vehicle fires all the time that don’t make it past some burnt electrical conduit before they run out of available fuel. If you took a blowtorch to a starter it would fail internally, pretty sure it got so hot that something failed in it. The electrical burning odor was present before anyone ever tried to start it. I was definitely in high rpms when this occurred. Climbing a steep grade upwards of 70mph. I noticed a huge amount of smoke behind me, looked at my dash and saw the ch am engine light and immediately pulled over. When I pulled over it seized as soon as I let off the gas which makes me think the crank wasn’t seeing oil and just holding enough lubricant in the bearings to keep from seizing until I let off the gas. Just dropped it off at the dealer, I’ll update once I hear what’s officially wrong. The service tech confirmed he thinks it’s rear diff after a quick drive.

 

[jdmartin]

Wow. That sucks. Thoughts:

1. I agree with virtually everyone else. There's nothing in the engine detonation that would damage the rear differential. Either they were messing with it too and did something there, or put something back together wrong when they had your truck apart.

2. An engine can get hot enough to catch on fire and catch things on fire. My Mustang burned up on me on the side of the road in Ohio 30 years ago when a hose busted and drained all the coolant, and the temp gauge wasn't working. The fire destroyed virtually all of the wiring in the engine bay. I doubt your engine burned up your starter but it could very well have burned up the wiring. Total loss of oil will increase engine heat significantly as oil is not only a lubricant but a heat exchange medium; it is the "coolant" inside the cylinders and around the camshafts, places that liquid coolant can remove some heat through proximity but can't be directly immersed to exchange the heat further. So it wouldn't surprise me if your engine actually did catch on fire from losing all the oil.

3. You should still be under warranty so I would just let the dealer worry about what's wrong with your differential, regardless of how/why it was damaged.

 

[BowDown]

Very true. I would like to see know how long the OP was actually able to drive the truck with falling oil pressure until it seized up. That engine in the video running at redline ran for a full minute as the oil pressure dropped. Perhaps the OP at 2000 rpm's at 70 MPH drove for 10 minutes with the oil draining out and the exhaust pipes got hot enough in that time to melt or catch wires on fire that were in proximity of the exhaust.

Be interesting to see how long an engine, with coolant, being drove normally would run instead of the full throttle in the video. It amazed me it ran that long.

My guess is that the oil draining from the oil pan caused intermittent oil starvation in the oil pump and subsequently the main bearings. These engines don't have priority main oiling meaning that the heads/valvetrain receive oil 1st then the mains.

This would have led to the bearing surfaces overheating and blowing right the the copper backing. With the oil pressure sensors on the head, it would have seen oil pressure until the last of the oil drained but the bottom end would be trash at that point already.
I'd guess that this process lasted no more than a minute if that and was relatively quick. If there's no rod through the block, I'd guess low rpm, 2000 or less but it dosen't take more than a few seconds to tear up a bearing with no oil pressure and lock up a bottom end.

The video dosen't work in this case because of the oil pressure safety being non existent. Also the high rpm contributed to the engine running longer, mass of the crank, rods and pistons combined with WOT, no load and all the fuel and air it old eat

 

[BowDown]

Wow. That sucks. Thoughts:

1. I agree with virtually everyone else. There's nothing in the engine detonation that would damage the rear differential. Either they were messing with it too and did something there, or put something back together wrong when they had your truck apart.

2. An engine can get hot enough to catch on fire and catch things on fire. My Mustang burned up on me on the side of the road in Ohio 30 years ago when a hose busted and drained all the coolant, and the temp gauge wasn't working. The fire destroyed virtually all of the wiring in the engine bay. I doubt your engine burned up your starter but it could very well have burned up the wiring. Total loss of oil will increase engine heat significantly as oil is not only a lubricant but a heat exchange medium; it is the "coolant" inside the cylinders and around the camshafts, places that liquid coolant can remove some heat through proximity but can't be directly immersed to exchange the heat further. So it wouldn't surprise me if your engine actually did catch on fire from losing all the oil.

3. You should still be under warranty so I would just let the dealer worry about what's wrong with your differential, regardless of how/why it was damaged.

In your situation, yes. With no coolant, there's no way to control heat. Oil is also a coolant as well as a bearing surface wash agent but loss of oil isn't going to do what a loss of coolant will.

My bigger point is that if it caught fire, it would have done more damage as your situation did. Now, had a rod come out, get out the marshmallows

 

[Mountain Whiskey]

Assumptions here crack me up. YouTube videos in controlled environments and other nonsense.

I had a buddy whose truck did just what the op described. The drain plug came out on the road. I'm sure alcohol was involved in the prior oil change (done at home before Jiffy Lube). Ford 300 straight six. We just towed it back to his house, put a new plug in the oil pan and filled it back up with oil. Had to pull start it with my truck but popping the clutch in 3rd got the motor to turn over. Kept going till it started. Ran fine after that.

No. It did not get hot and melt anything. The rear did not self destruct from this either.

I miss the 80s....