IBS and Winch Power Connections

[HAL9001]

Many newer RAMs use an Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) to monitor battery conditions. In normal operation, all electrical loads in the vehicle pass through the IBS which is located at the negative post on the 12 Volt battery. You're not supposed to connect any electrical load directly to the negative battery post bypassing the IBS.

However, some of us want to install a winch on our truck. A powerful winch can draw as much as 450 amps. A typical IBS has a rating of only around 200 Amps max. So, what are we supposed to do in this situation? If I install my 12,000 lb winch rated at 430 Amp to the IBS, I'm likely to burn the IBS out. This is a 4x4 truck, trucks often have winches. There must be a proper method of connecting a powerful winch to the RAM's battery.

Has anyone who has installed a winch run across this issue yet?

 

[HAL9001]

I haven't yet been able to find the answer to this anywhere. Sooner or later someone else is going to want to install a winch to a RAM with an IBS.

 

[Richard320]

You could always look at a new Power Wagon and see how they did it. They have a factory winch.

 

[HAL9001]

You could always look at a new Power Wagon and see how they did it. They have a factory winch.

I don't have access to a Power Wagon. I'm hoping someone here could help?

 

[User_21361]

Many newer RAMs use an Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) to monitor battery conditions. In normal operation, all electrical loads in the vehicle pass through the IBS which is located at the negative post on the 12 Volt battery. You're not supposed to connect any electrical load directly to the negative battery post bypassing the IBS.

However, some of us want to install a winch on our truck. A powerful winch can draw as much as 450 amps. A typical IBS has a rating of only around 200 Amps max. So, what are we supposed to do in this situation? If I install my 12,000 lb winch rated at 430 Amp to the IBS, I'm likely to burn the IBS out. This is a 4x4 truck, trucks often have winches. There must be a proper method of connecting a powerful winch to the RAM's battery.

Has anyone who has installed a winch run across this issue yet?

Did you ever figure this out?

 

[HAL9001]

Did you ever figure this out?

There was simply no choice but to bypass the IBS for the winch. You can't have up to 450 amps of current going through a device that can probably handle only around 250 amps. Better to bypass it and deal with the consequences than burn it out.

Bosch, the manufacturer of the IBS was of no help. Neither was the RAM dealer or anyone else. No one knew the answer or had a solution.

I've used the winch several times now. So far, bypassing the IBS has had no noticeable effect on the operation of the truck. However, while I'm reasonably comfortable doing this for myself, I can't, in good conscience, recommend it to anyone else because I don't know if there will ever be any repercussions. But if you own a RAM or any vehicle with an IBS, you're going to have to deal with this if you want a powerful winch.

 

[Ram Ranch]

Have you tried talking to VICE Design here on the forums? They sell the 5th Gen Hidden Winch. Maybe they know something.

 

[HAL9001]

Have you tried talking to VICE Design here on the forums? They sell the 5th Gen Hidden Winch. Maybe they know something.

I spoke extensively with WARN technical support. They were of no help. If anyone should have known it was them. Everyone I ask suggests talking to someone else but no one knows the answer. When it comes to tapping into an IBS-equipped vehicle for powering a winch, you're definitely on your own.

Any vehicle using an IBS was not designed to use a powerful winch unless it has an IBS rated for 500 amps or more. As far as I was able to discern, the RAM IBS is rated for 200-250 amps maximum. You can tell by the size, the 500-amp IBS modules are much larger than the RAM's.

 

[ayoslickxd]

would it be safe to say we should add then a IBS unit rated for 450 amps?

 

[cj7]

Bypassing the IBS for this type of load is the correct path. No harm will come from the bypass, assuming the rest of the circuit is properly done.

 

[HAL9001]

would it be safe to say we should add then a IBS unit rated for 450 amps?

You would need to find one compatible with the RAM. I asked Bosch about this but they refused to comment.

 

[HAL9001]

Bypassing the IBS for this type of load is the correct path. No harm will come from the bypass, assuming the rest of the circuit is properly done.

I think you're correct but are you stating this from opinion or from some specific information you have? I couldn't find any info pertaining to this and I would really appreciate it if anyone could share any specific info about it.

 

[HAL9001]

If you decide to bypass the IBS for a winch, I suggest the following:

• Only use the winch when the vehicle's engine is running.
  • This will reduce the load on the battery and hopefully help keep the battery's discharge rate better in sync with what the IBS is monitoring.
  • If the battery is significantly discharged without the IBS knowing about it, the IBS may report an incorrect battery charge status.
• Disconnect the winch bypass wiring immediately after use. Never run the vehicle as normal with the bypass wiring connected.
  • This could bypass the IBS for all other normal operations. See this caveat.
• Soon after the winch is used, fully recharge the battery ensuring that the charger's negative lead is connected to the IBS or chassis ground.
  • Do not connect the charger's negative lead directly to the battery's negative post, this will bypass the IBS and may make things worse.
  • Recharging the battery through the IBS should hopefully resync the IBS to the battery's actual charge status.

 

[cj7]

If you decide to bypass the IBS for a winch, I suggest the following:

• Only use the winch when the vehicle's engine is running.
  • This will reduce the load on the battery and hopefully help keep the battery's discharge rate better in sync with what the IBS is monitoring.
  • If the battery is significantly discharged without the IBS knowing about it, the IBS may report an incorrect battery charge status.
• Soon after the winch is used, fully recharge the battery ensuring that the charger's negative lead is connected to the IBS or chassis ground.
  • Do not connect the charger's negative lead directly to the battery's negative post, this will bypass the IBS and may make things worse.
  • Recharging the battery through the IBS should hopefully resync the IBS to the battery's actual charge status.

I suspect you presume too much of the IBS. Yes, the IBS relays state of charge to the ECU, but it doesn’t watch amp-hours come and go, it watches the battery voltage in response to load. For example, low voltage and rapid decrease of voltage in response to a relatively small load, would update the current/predicted State of Charge downward.

An IBS signals‘ primary function are to tell the ECU that the battery can support stop/start or other large but non-essential loads. In eTorque applications, the State of Charge, voltage, current, temp it reports, is also used to determine how the secondary battery supports the electrical load, where to send generator energy, among other things.

The IBS should update the SoC soon after normal vehicle electrical loading/charging happens. So, while I agree to try to use the winch when the vehicle is running, I would not think the recharging suggestions would be worth the trouble.

 

[User_21361]

So is everyone running the winch directly to the battery terminals with a relay (switch in the cab)?

I am planning a portable winch (hitch mount) and I'm debating on the wiring. Right now, I am thinking a short lead off the battery with a relay and switch in the cab to an anderson connector. Then I will just carry a long cable with the winch. I could just use a jumper cable to the battery, but that feels a bit more hacky than I like. Thoughts or pointers of where to look for suggestions on wiring? I thought about running a cable to the front and back of the truck with anderson connectors at both end to eliminate the need to carry a long cable with the winch. however, I didn't like the idea of having a long cable run (capable of 400+ amps) under the truck that I have to worry about damaging. At least I know the cable, while in a box in the bed wont have pinch points. That approach also makes my switching/relays a bit more complex.

 

[HAL9001]

I suspect you presume too much of the IBS. Yes, the IBS relays state of charge to the ECU, but it doesn’t watch amp-hours come and go, it watches the battery voltage in response to load. For example, low voltage and rapid decrease of voltage in response to a relatively small load, would update the current/predicted State of Charge downward.

An IBS signals‘ primary function are to tell the ECU that the battery can support stop/start or other large but non-essential loads. In eTorque applications, the State of Charge, voltage, current, temp it reports, is also used to determine how the secondary battery supports the electrical load, where to send generator energy, among other things.

The IBS should update the SoC soon after normal vehicle electrical loading/charging happens. So, while I agree to try to use the winch when the vehicle is running, I would not think the recharging suggestions would be worth the trouble.

I don't believe I presume too much of the IBS. I know specifically what it does and does not do, but it's only a single part of the RAM's overall battery management system. We also need to take into account exactly what the ECU does with the data provided by the IBS. The ECU programming can indeed and probably does monitor overall power usage.

Here is my understanding of the system (warning to other readers, this gets quite technical).

The Bosch Electronic Battery Sensor (EBS) is the specific device RAM uses as part of its overall Electrical Energy Management (EEM) and Battery Management System (BMS) on eTorque equipped 1500's. RAM doesn't use Bosch's nomenclature and instead calls this device an Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS).



This intelligent device, connected directly to the battery's negative post, contains a microprocessor and memory and is internally programmed by Bosch to constantly provide specific battery data to the RAM's ECU (Engine Control Unit). The EBS (IBS) contains a shunt to measure battery current, both incoming and outgoing, and also has the capability to measure the battery's voltage and temperature in near real-time.

With these base measurements, the EBS microprocessor then uses an integrated battery state detection (BSD) algorithm (software) to predict the battery's state of charge (SOC), the state of function (SOF), and the state of health (SOH). The SOC predicts the battery's current charge, i.e. how much power it currently contains, the SOF predicts the influence of the load profile on the voltage curve, and the SOH predicts the battery's aging effects and its influence on the battery's capacity to store energy.

The EBS constantly reports these high-level calculated SOC, SOH, and SOF parameters, as well as the raw data of the battery's near-real-time current, voltage, and temperature measurements to the RAM's ECU at specific intervals both when the engine is running and when it's off via a LIN (Local Interconnect Network) port.

What RAM then specifically does with this data is determined by the RAM's ECU proprietary programming pertaining to its electrical energy management (EEM) and battery management (BMS) systems. Obviously, it's used to help optimize and control the Start/Stop, coasting energy recuperation, 48 Volt auxiliary battery management, alternator, and other hybrid operations, but it may perform other operations as well. So, the IBS is only one component in a much larger EBS/ECU/EEM/BMS system capable of far exceeding the IBS's singular functions.

Bypassing the RAM's IBS, especially with very heavy electrical loads such as a winch, can potentially result in erroneous parameters and resulting miscalculations to the overall sensitive EBS/EEM/BMS systems and is not recommended as the repercussions are generally unknown to vehicle owners. Hopefully, the ECU's EEM/BMS software is robust enough to recover from intermittent and transient erroneous data.

I'm hoping that the suggestions I gave might help mitigate any potential repercussions. Using the winch with the engine running may reduce any unreported energy loss to the battery, and recharging the battery through the IBS may possibly help resync the overall system back to a known full charge condition as well as replace any unreported energy loss to the battery that the EBS/EEM/BMS systems may have not accounted for. You would think that the overall system software would need to account for an owner manually recharging the battery.

I realize these are just suggestions, I don't know nor do I know anyone who knows specifically how the RAM's EEM/BMS programming operates nor does RAM currently provide any information to owners who wish to install powerful winches. So, this is the best I can think of as to what to do given the limited information currently at hand.

Until more information is known, consider bypassing the RAM's IBS and any suggested mitigations as a precarious proposition to be done solely at your own risk.

 

[fartsonunicorns]

Will the IBS restrict voltage to an amplifier? I’ve got two amps and my subwoofer amp goes into protect mode at maximum volume.

I’ve done the Big Three, all ground connections at the amps are good, and I’m hitting about 10% clipping at full tilt, and still I can’t figure out what the problem is.


2020 Big Horn Quad Cab 4x4
De-badged and chrome delete
Rockford Fosgate P600x4 pushing stock 6 speakers, P1000x1bd pushing two 10” subs

 

[HAL9001]

Will the IBS restrict voltage to an amplifier? I’ve got two amps and my subwoofer amp goes into protect mode at maximum volume.

I’ve done the Big Three, all ground connections at the amps are good, and I’m hitting about 10% clipping at full tilt, and still I can’t figure out what the problem is.


2020 Big Horn Quad Cab 4x4
De-badged and chrome delete
Rockford Fosgate P600x4 pushing stock 6 speakers, P1000x1bd pushing two 10” subs

The IBS does not restrict power to any electrical component. Its job is solely to report the predicted battery condition and other parameters to the ECU, see my post above.

If a powerful audio amp is experiencing a voltage loss, then the first suspect is the power wiring. For many powerful automotive audio amplifiers, it's essential to use high-quality, heavy gauge wire directly to the battery. You must match the ampacity of the wire gauge to the amps required by the amplifier. If you don't, then you can get a voltage drop across the wiring which can result in a significant loss of power.

Both the P600X4 and the P1000X1bd Rockford Fosgate amps you use each spec a wire gauge of 4 AWG minimum. Not only must the wire be at least 4 AWG, but it must also be of high-quality copper, not aluminum or any composite. There are a lot of poor-quality wire kits sold for automotive audio amps with misleading wire gauges. Only a 4 AWG wire of quality copper conductors will supply the proper power for your amps. I use a quality welding cable wire rather than those often poor-quality audio amp wiring kits.

Additionally, since you use both a P600X4 and a P1000X1bd, you will require enough wire ampacity to simultaneously power both amps. So, instead of a single 4 AWG wire, you technically require 000 (3/0) wire going from the battery to the interior of the truck, after which you can branch into two 4 AWG wires to each amp. However, 000 (3/0) wire is massive. You might be able to get by with less if you don't require the full power a lot or if you're not experiencing any issues, but you say that you are.

The trouble with powering very high loads with only 12 Volts is that it requires a lot of electrical current (amperage). Power = Amps * Volts (P=IE). The lower the voltage, the higher the current required for high power. In order to carry high current at lower voltages, the wire must be very thick. This is why we use 120 or 240 volts for home applications, otherwise, the home wiring would be massive. In a car, with only 12 VDC available, you need very thick wire for high-power devices. If you try to get away with less, you may experience power loss.

 

[HAL9001]

So is everyone running the winch directly to the battery terminals with a relay (switch in the cab)?

I am planning a portable winch (hitch mount) and I'm debating on the wiring. Right now, I am thinking a short lead off the battery with a relay and switch in the cab to an anderson connector. Then I will just carry a long cable with the winch. I could just use a jumper cable to the battery, but that feels a bit more hacky than I like. Thoughts or pointers of where to look for suggestions on wiring? I thought about running a cable to the front and back of the truck with anderson connectors at both end to eliminate the need to carry a long cable with the winch. however, I didn't like the idea of having a long cable run (capable of 400+ amps) under the truck that I have to worry about damaging. At least I know the cable, while in a box in the bed wont have pinch points. That approach also makes my switching/relays a bit more complex.

You almost always need to power a powerful winch directly to the battery. Most powerful winches require more current (amperage) than the existing vehicle wiring can handle. There are some exceptions, such as trucks or other vehicles OE designed to use a winch.

You don't need a relay with a switch in the cab, this is only a luxury to conveniently turn on/off the power to the winch. You can use a battery disconnect switch located under the hood to do this. Not as convenient, but much easier and less expensive to wire. Some people don't even bother with a relay or a switch and leave the winch wiring hot all the time. I don't recommend this. Also, a high current fuse should always be used as near to the battery as possible.

I also hitch mounted my winch, and like you, I debated using permanent chassis wiring or a portable cable. Both are acceptable. Ultimately, I decided to use permanent chassis wiring. However, having done this, I would only recommend it to those who are highly experienced with running heavy gauge wiring in an automotive application. It was very tricky running massive wires from the battery all the way to the hitch and not for the average DIYer. You have to choose a route that does not expose the wire to heat, chaffing, and pinching, and also ensure that the heavy wire itself does not interfere with any existing vehicle components. This is possible but quite difficult and only for experienced and qualified installers.

In either case, it's very important to select the right wire, especially in this situation where the wiring run is so long. If you choose the wrong wire, you can experience a voltage drop at the winch enough to significantly reduce its rating or even enough to cause it damage. You didn't state the amperage rating of your specific winch, but typically a 12,000 lb winch can draw up to around 450 amps. For this length of a wire run, that would require 0000 (4/0) copper wire. This is very large, heavy, and expensive wire. Some will try to convince you that it's ok to use 2/0 wire or even smaller, but, as I said, that may result in a significant voltage drop and wire overheating, especially with longer wire runs and on extended winch pulls. I would not recommend that. I used TEMCo WC0325 4/0 Gauge AWG Welding Lead along with Anderson 6320G2 SB350 4/0 connectors. I did not bother with a relay/switch and simply used a battery disconnect and a 500-amp fuse under the hood, mounted near the battery. As stated above, I bypassed the IBS, although I don't recommend this to anyone else. Do this only at your own risk, but do not run the winch through the IBS, this may likely burn it out.

My winch setup works great, and except for the unknown consequences of bypassing the IBS, is all electrically and mechanically sound.

 

[fartsonunicorns]

The IBS does not restrict power to any electrical component. Its job is solely to report the predicted battery condition and other parameters to the ECU, see my post above.

If a powerful audio amp is experiencing a voltage loss, then the first suspect is the power wiring. For many powerful automotive audio amplifiers, it's essential to use high-quality, heavy gauge wire directly to the battery. You must match the ampacity of the wire gauge to the amps required by the amplifier. If you don't, then you can get a voltage drop across the wiring which can result in a significant loss of power.

Both the P600X4 and the P1000X1bd Rockford Fosgate amps you use each spec a wire gauge of 4 AWG minimum. Not only must the wire be at least 4 AWG, but it must also be of high-quality copper, not aluminum or any composite. There are a lot of poor-quality wire kits sold for automotive audio amps with misleading wire gauges. Only a 4 AWG wire of quality copper conductors will supply the proper power for your amps. I use a quality welding cable wire rather than those often poor-quality audio amp wiring kits.

Additionally, since you use both a P600X4 and a P1000X1bd, you will require enough wire ampacity to simultaneously power both amps. So, instead of a single 4 AWG wire, you technically require 000 (3/0) wire going from the battery to the interior of the truck, after which you can branch into two 4 AWG wires to each amp. However, 000 (3/0) wire is massive. You might be able to get by with less if you don't require the full power a lot or if you're not experiencing any issues, but you say that you are.

The trouble with powering very high loads with only 12 Volts is that it requires a lot of electrical current (amperage). Power = Amps * Volts (P=IE). The lower the voltage, the higher the current required for high power. In order to carry high current at lower voltages, the wire must be very thick. This is why we use 120 or 240 volts for home applications, otherwise, the home wiring would be massive. In a car, with only 12 VDC available, you need very thick wire for high-power devices. If you try to get away with less, you may experience power loss.

Yeah I’m running some 1/0 gauge high quality tinned copper wire (rated for 375 amps/20ft) to a distribution block, and then 4 awg of the same wire to each amp, so the wiring shouldn’t be the issue. Thanks for the info tho


2020 Big Horn Quad Cab 4x4
De-badged and chrome delete
Rockford Fosgate P600x4 pushing stock 6 speakers, P1000x1bd pushing two 10” subs