IBS and Winch Power Connections

[cj7]

I don't believe I presume too much of the IBS. I know specifically what it does and does not do, but it's only a single part of the RAM's overall battery management system. We also need to take into account exactly what the ECU does with the data provided by the IBS. The ECU programming can indeed and probably does monitor overall power usage.

Here is my understanding of the system (warning to other readers, this gets quite technical).

The Bosch Electronic Battery Sensor (EBS) is the specific device RAM uses as part of its overall Electrical Energy Management (EEM) and Battery Management System (BMS) on eTorque equipped 1500's. RAM doesn't use Bosch's nomenclature and instead calls this device an Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS).

View attachment 95441

This intelligent device, connected directly to the battery's negative post, contains a microprocessor and memory and is internally programmed by Bosch to constantly provide specific battery data to the RAM's ECU (Engine Control Unit). The EBS (IBS) contains a shunt to measure battery current, both incoming and outgoing, and also has the capability to measure the battery's voltage and temperature in near real-time.

With these base measurements, the EBS microprocessor then uses an integrated battery state detection (BSD) algorithm (software) to predict the battery's state of charge (SOC), the state of function (SOF), and the state of health (SOH). The SOC predicts the battery's current charge, i.e. how much power it currently contains, the SOF predicts the influence of the load profile on the voltage curve, and the SOH predicts the battery's aging effects and its influence on the battery's capacity to store energy.

The EBS constantly reports these high-level calculated SOC, SOH, and SOF parameters, as well as the raw data of the battery's near-real-time current, voltage, and temperature measurements to the RAM's ECU at specific intervals both when the engine is running and when it's off via a LIN (Local Interconnect Network) port.

What RAM then specifically does with this data is determined by the RAM's ECU proprietary programming pertaining to its electrical energy management (EEM) and battery management (BMS) systems. Obviously, it's used to help optimize and control the Start/Stop, coasting energy recuperation, 48 Volt auxiliary battery management, alternator, and other hybrid operations, but it may perform other operations as well. So, the IBS is only one component in a much larger EBS/ECU/EEM/BMS system capable of far exceeding the IBS's singular functions.

Bypassing the RAM's IBS, especially with very heavy electrical loads such as a winch, can potentially result in erroneous parameters and resulting miscalculations to the overall sensitive EBS/EEM/BMS systems and is not recommended as the repercussions are generally unknown to vehicle owners. Hopefully, the ECU's EEM/BMS software is robust enough to recover from intermittent and transient erroneous data.

I'm hoping that the suggestions I gave might help mitigate any potential repercussions. Using the winch with the engine running may reduce any unreported energy loss to the battery, and recharging the battery through the IBS may possibly help resync the overall system back to a known full charge condition as well as replace any unreported energy loss to the battery that the EBS/EEM/BMS systems may have not accounted for. You would think that the overall system software would need to account for an owner manually recharging the battery.

I realize these are just suggestions, I don't know nor do I know anyone who knows specifically how the RAM's EEM/BMS programming operates nor does RAM currently provide any information to owners who wish to install powerful winches. So, this is the best I can think of as to what to do given the limited information currently at hand.

Until more information is known, consider bypassing the RAM's IBS and any suggested mitigations as a precarious proposition to be done solely at your own risk.

THats good info from their website. In my experience, sensors like this (amd/or, the programs that use their data) compensate for numerous factors, including unmonitored loads. Depending on the controlled function, they often more heavily weight ongoing battery response data (eg V/A, SoF) than long-term historical data (eg SoH). Thus, discharging the battery by loads that are not run thru the sensor, will have only temporary impact on many of the sensor’s outputs. These sensors do not know the ah capacity of the monitored battery, are forced to decide it, so their predictions are of limited value. However, that ombined with real-time data, will prevent loads like radiator fan after-run, or stop/start, from killing the battery. Unmonitored loads will mean the sensor reports too-high state of charge for a while, but will correct that soon enough.

So, two conclusions:
- a high current load as discussed cannot be run thru the IBS
- the system will not report erroneous info for long, and no meaningful harm will come from it being wrong for a bit of time.

Result: run the winch directly to the battery (and high amp fuse or CB), and don’t worry about the sensor. I would encourage using a switch-controlled starter contactor between fuse and load, so the line is not live unless needed. There are a number of 200a rated contactors that can switch 200a loads, and if only energized or de-energized with no load current, can easily handle minutes-long 400a loads.

 

[HAL9001]

THats good info from their website. In my experience, sensors like this (amd/or, the programs that use their data) compensate for numerous factors, including unmonitored loads. Depending on the controlled function, they often more heavily weight ongoing battery response data (eg V/A, SoF) than long-term historical data (eg SoH). Thus, discharging the battery by loads that are not run thru the sensor, will have only temporary impact on many of the sensor’s outputs. These sensors do not know the ah capacity of the monitored battery, are forced to decide it, so their predictions are of limited value. However, that ombined with real-time data, will prevent loads like radiator fan after-run, or stop/start, from killing the battery. Unmonitored loads will mean the sensor reports too-high state of charge for a while, but will correct that soon enough.

So, two conclusions:
- a high current load as discussed cannot be run thru the IBS
- the system will not report erroneous info for long, and no meaningful harm will come from it being wrong for a bit of time.

Result: run the winch directly to the battery (and high amp fuse or CB), and don’t worry about the sensor. I would encourage using a switch-controlled starter contactor between fuse and load, so the line is not live unless needed. There are a number of 200a rated contactors that can switch 200a loads, and if only energized or de-energized with no load current, can easily handle minutes-long 400a loads.

I agree with your conclusions, which is why I bypassed the IBS for my winch. To date, I've not seen any issues nor do I expect to. I do think it was shortsighted on RAM's part not to provide the capability for a winch, after all this is a 4x4 truck. They could have used a 500 amp capable IBS or at least made one available as an option.

 

[User_21361]

You almost always need to power a powerful winch directly to the battery. Most powerful winches require more current (amperage) than the existing vehicle wiring can handle. There are some exceptions, such as trucks or other vehicles OE designed to use a winch.

You don't need a relay with a switch in the cab, this is only a luxury to conveniently turn on/off the power to the winch. You can use a battery disconnect switch located under the hood to do this. Not as convenient, but much easier and less expensive to wire. Some people don't even bother with a relay or a switch and leave the winch wiring hot all the time. I don't recommend this. Also, a high current fuse should always be used as near to the battery as possible.

I also hitch mounted my winch, and like you, I debated using permanent chassis wiring or a portable cable. Both are acceptable. Ultimately, I decided to use permanent chassis wiring. However, having done this, I would only recommend it to those who are highly experienced with running heavy gauge wiring in an automotive application. It was very tricky running massive wires from the battery all the way to the hitch and not for the average DIYer. You have to choose a route that does not expose the wire to heat, chaffing, and pinching, and also ensure that the heavy wire itself does not interfere with any existing vehicle components. This is possible but quite difficult and only for experienced and qualified installers.

In either case, it's very important to select the right wire, especially in this situation where the wiring run is so long. If you choose the wrong wire, you can experience a voltage drop at the winch enough to significantly reduce its rating or even enough to cause it damage. You didn't state the amperage rating of your specific winch, but typically a 12,000 lb winch can draw up to around 450 amps. For this length of a wire run, that would require 0000 (4/0) copper wire. This is very large, heavy, and expensive wire. Some will try to convince you that it's ok to use 2/0 wire or even smaller, but, as I said, that may result in a significant voltage drop and wire overheating, especially with longer wire runs and on extended winch pulls. I would not recommend that. I used TEMCo WC0325 4/0 Gauge AWG Welding Lead along with Anderson 6320G2 SB350 4/0 connectors. I did not bother with a relay/switch and simply used a battery disconnect and a 500-amp fuse under the hood, mounted near the battery. As stated above, I bypassed the IBS, although I don't recommend this to anyone else. Do this only at your own risk, but do not run the winch through the IBS, this may likely burn it out.

My winch setup works great, and except for the unknown consequences of bypassing the IBS, is all electrically and mechanically sound.

Would you mind snapping some photos and a shopping list of connectors, switches and fuses?

 

[HAL9001]

Would you mind snapping some photos and a shopping list of connectors, switches and fuses?

Here is the fuse block that I used:



Here is the fuse itself (my winch draws up to 470 amps):



Here is the wire:



The wire loam:



Heat Shrink Tubing:



The switch:



Anderson connectors:



I fabricated the switch/fuse mount myself out of a small sheet of aluminum which you should be able to source at Home Depot or Lowes. I mounted it under the hood near the battery. I ran the cables from there along the right side of the chassis to the rear of the vehicle and then mounted the Anderson connectors near the hitch where I mount the winch.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[HAL9001]

Would you mind snapping some photos and a shopping list of connectors, switches and fuses?

You'll also need these lugs:



If you don't have a lug crimper large enough to handle 4/0, this crimper works well:

 

[cj7]

Here is the fuse block that I used:

View attachment 95800

Here is the fuse itself (my winch draws up to 470 amps):

View attachment 95801

Here is the wire:

View attachment 95809

The wire loam:

View attachment 95804

Heat Shrink Tubing:

View attachment 95810

The switch:

View attachment 95806

Anderson connectors:

View attachment 95808

I fabricated the switch/fuse mount myself out of a small sheet of aluminum which you should be able to source at Home Depot or Lowes. I mounted it under the hood near the battery. I ran the cables from there along the right side of the chassis to the rear of the vehicle and then mounted the Anderson connectors near the hitch where I mount the winch.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

That’s a good list. Def overbuilt, high safety margin. Have the same crimper, does work well.
Also consider marine cartridge fuses like this

can mount right on the post clamp bolt - one less wire. Also, 2/0 would work fine, and is so much easier to work with (not that it’s easy). Our truck battery would overheat if it generated 400 amps for more than a couple minutes. In fact, I bet you couldn’t get 400a for one whole minute... A 400amp winch isn’t gonna draw more than 200a in anything other than severe duty. 2/0 might warm up, but for the short time it’s carrying load, will not be a problem. For the typical winch install, 2/0 and 300a fuse should be plenty.

 

[HAL9001]

That’s a good list. Def overbuilt, high safety margin. Have the same crimper, does work well.
Also consider marine cartridge fuses like this
View attachment 95824
can mount right on the post clamp bolt - one less wire. Also, 2/0 would work fine, and is so much easier to work with (not that it’s easy). Our truck battery would overheat if it generated 400 amps for more than a couple minutes. In fact, I bet you couldn’t get 400a for one whole minute... A 400amp winch isn’t gonna draw more than 200a in anything other than extreme duty. 2/0 might warm up, but for the short time it’s carrying load, will not be a problem. For the typical winch install, 2/0 and 200-300a fuse should be plenty.

My 12,000 lb winch is rated to draw 460 amps at full load. I use it a lot for felling trees so I'm often pushing it to the max. That's why my setup is heavy-duty. Also, the cost difference between 4/0 and 2/0 wire was only around $95 and they're both difficult to work with, so I went with the 4/0. Running the wire all the way back to the hitch requires about 25', so this was a considerably longer wire run than most front winch setups. I wasn't too concerned about the wire heating up, but rather the voltage drop over 25' can be significant enough to affect the winch's power, so I felt the correct spec'd wire ampacity was justified. Someone using a lesser-rated winch, or using it for lighter duty, or with a shorter run, can probably get away with 2/0, but keep in mind that when dealing with only 12 Volts, even a small voltage drop can be significant especially with longer wire runs. You really want all the available battery voltage at the winch and very little lost in the wire.

 

[User_21361]

A few questions folks, this has been very helpful.

1. Where have you been mounting your fuses and switches?
2. How are you connecting the wires to the battery (using the photo below)?
2a. I am also planning on running some lights to the battery, what would be the best way to get all of this wired in without it being a mess?



Last odd question for now, can I use this setup for jumping a dead battery later on (assuming my jumper cables have anderson connectors)?

 

[User_21361]

My 12,000 lb winch is rated to draw 460 amps at full load. I use it a lot for felling trees so I'm often pushing it to the max. That's why my setup is heavy-duty. Also, the cost difference between 4/0 and 2/0 wire was only around $95 and they're both difficult to work with, so I went with the 4/0. Running the wire all the way back to the hitch requires about 25', so this was a considerably longer wire run than most front winch setups. I wasn't too concerned about the wire heating up, but rather the voltage drop over 25' can be significant enough to affect the winch's power, so I felt the correct spec'd wire ampacity was justified. Someone using a lesser-rated winch, or using it for lighter duty, or with a shorter run, can probably get away with 2/0, but keep in mind that when dealing with only 12 Volts, even a small voltage drop can be significant especially with longer wire runs. You really want all the available battery voltage at the winch and very little lost in the wire.

Can you please snap a photo of your battery and wiring? I’m at a loss for where/how to actually connect these. I have the winch side mostly done. I decided I’m going to do Anderson clips under the hood and at the battery. That way I just carry the long run of cable and plug it in on both sides.

 

[cj7]

My 12,000 lb winch is rated to draw 460 amps at full load. I use it a lot for felling trees so I'm often pushing it to the max. That's why my setup is heavy-duty. Also, the cost difference between 4/0 and 2/0 wire was only around $95 and they're both difficult to work with, so I went with the 4/0. Running the wire all the way back to the hitch requires about 25', so this was a considerably longer wire run than most front winch setups. I wasn't too concerned about the wire heating up, but rather the voltage drop over 25' can be significant enough to affect the winch's power, so I felt the correct spec'd wire ampacity was justified. Someone using a lesser-rated winch, or using it for lighter duty, or with a shorter run, can probably get away with 2/0, but keep in mind that when dealing with only 12 Volts, even a small voltage drop can be significant especially with longer wire runs. You really want all the available battery voltage at the winch and very little lost in the wire.

Makes me wonder why folks who do a lot of serious winching, don’t install a second battery closer to the winch. I wouldn’t want my start battery to be running my 12k winch, if I had a choice...

 

[HAL9001]

Can you please snap a photo of your battery and wiring? I’m at a loss for where/how to actually connect these. I have the winch side mostly done. I decided I’m going to do Anderson clips under the hood and at the battery. That way I just carry the long run of cable and plug it in on both sides.

I'll see if I can get to this today.

 

[HAL9001]

Makes me wonder why folks who do a lot of serious winching, don’t install a second battery closer to the winch. I wouldn’t want my start battery to be running my 12k winch, if I had a choice...

Installing a second battery is a lot of extra trouble and expense and it would be inconvenient to always have to keep the second battery charged. I've been winching for years off of the primary battery on various vehicles with my 12K winch. It works great once everything is set up properly, well worth the trouble of the initial install. With the vehicle running, the momentary load from the winch does not harm the battery.

 

[HAL9001]

Can you please snap a photo of your battery and wiring? I’m at a loss for where/how to actually connect these. I have the winch side mostly done. I decided I’m going to do Anderson clips under the hood and at the battery. That way I just carry the long run of cable and plug it in on both sides.

Here is the wiring I used for my 12K Winch.


Above is the positive side. The Winch Positive Lead is wired to the 500 Amp Fuse Block. It then feeds into the Battery Cutoff Switch. Ignore the second 500 Amp fuse, I'm only using that as a makeshift busbar temporarily. I have an insulated copper busbar on order that will replace that. The Battery Cutoff Switch then is output to the Positive Winch Lead that goes along the chassis to the rear of the truck where the Anderson Connector is located.


Above is the negative side. Note that the Winch Negative Lead is attached below the IBS bypassing it. Running the winch through the IBS might result in burning it out. It's rated for only around 200-250 Amps.

Here is another view with the Positive Terminal Cover removed.

The Fuse Block and Battery Cutoff Switch are mounted to an aluminum plate which I fabricated. It's mounted to the truck by the bracket to the upper left of the Fuse Block. It's very sturdy and can easily be removed if necessary. I used 0000 (4/0) copper wire to the components and to the winch to ensure both the proper rated wire ampacity and a minimum voltage drop over the length of the 20-25 foot cabling run. This is my recommendation. Others may recommend smaller gauge wiring but either way, you're still going to be dealing with very thick wire, so you may as well do it right.

Here are a couple of views from underneath the truck showing the location and mounting of the Anderson Connector where the hitch-mounted winch plugs into.



Note that the Anderson connector is open when the winch is not attached. This ensures that no alternate path to ground occurs when the winch is disconnected. If left connect all the time, an alternative path to ground may occur which would bypass the IBS for all electrical components. See this important caveat.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[User_21361]

Thanks for all the help! I got the engine side in just now. I’ll post more info after I build a better mount in the engine bay

 

[Th8785]

Just a thought, has anyone attempted to fabricate a bracket for a secondary alternator? Not sure what kind of actual amperage a winch draws, but being rated at 450 amps is a max draw, not what it is actually pulling. I'm not sure about the etorque amperage output possibilities but a stock alternator for these trucks I would imagine is only around 220 amps. Take roughly 60% to run the truck and accessories and only have 100 amps to spare give or take. That being said, I don't think even if it max draws that it would have enough to blow the sensor without first upgrading the charging system. My knowledge pertains more to alternator stereos as opposed to winches but principles should be the same.

 

[HAL9001]

Just a thought, has anyone attempted to fabricate a bracket for a secondary alternator? Not sure what kind of actual amperage a winch draws, but being rated at 450 amps is a max draw, not what it is actually pulling. I'm not sure about the etorque amperage output possibilities but a stock alternator for these trucks I would imagine is only around 220 amps. Take roughly 60% to run the truck and accessories and only have 100 amps to spare give or take. That being said, I don't think even if it max draws that it would have enough to blow the sensor without first upgrading the charging system. My knowledge pertains more to alternator stereos as opposed to winches but principles should be the same.

My 12K winch is rated to draw over 440 amps max.


Granted, that is maximum current and most likely not typical. However, it wouldn't be prudent to hook it up in any fashion that might destroy the IBS, which is probably only rated to handle 200-250 amps, by assuming it won't draw enough current to blow it.

To go through the trouble and expense of trying to attach a secondary alternator is not something I or I believe most people would consider. Winch operation is only for a limited amount of time when in use. The combination of both the battery and the alternator together can supply enough power short term on a 5th Gen RAM 1500 with the eTorque option to adequately power the winch. I've used my winch several times now on hard pulls with no issues. The winch seems capable of exerting its full potential. There was no sign of the winch being overloaded or not getting adequate power.

 

[Th8785]

My 12K winch is rated to draw over 440 amps max.

View attachment 101488
Granted, that is maximum current and most likely not typical. However, it wouldn't be prudent to hook it up in any fashion that might destroy the IBS, which is probably only rated to handle 200-250 amps, by assuming it won't draw enough current to blow it.

To go through the trouble and expense of trying to attach a secondary alternator is not something I or I believe most people would consider. Winch operation is only for a limited amount of time when in use. The combination of both the battery and the alternator together can supply enough power short term on a 5th Gen RAM 1500 with the eTorque option to adequately power the winch. I've used my winch several times now on hard pulls with no issues. The winch seems capable of exerting its full potential. There was no sign of the winch being overloaded or not getting adequate power.

Understand the trouble involved. I have been searching for a bracket to add an alternator for a few months now with no luck. However, you mentioned alternator and etorque which isn't correct. The etorque has an mgu in place of the alternator. I haven't been able to find any concrete answers on amperage output possibilities for that unit as I also have an etorque. My issue would be more steady that that of a winch as my amplifiers can pull up to 500ish amps at any time, which is why the alternator bracket would make sense for me. As far as the ibs sensor, may not hurt to invest in an extra to keep in the glove box? I have blown the fuse on something similar in my last car, however I swapped to an upgraded alternator which caused the problem with the fuse on that. I don't think these trucks will allow enough power to blow it unless it's a surge. Just my thoughts though.

 

[HAL9001]

Understand the trouble involved. I have been searching for a bracket to add an alternator for a few months now with no luck. However, you mentioned alternator and etorque which isn't correct. The etorque has an mgu in place of the alternator. I haven't been able to find any concrete answers on amperage output possibilities for that unit as I also have an etorque. My issue would be more steady that that of a winch as my amplifiers can pull up to 500ish amps at any time, which is why the alternator bracket would make sense for me. As far as the ibs sensor, may not hurt to invest in an extra to keep in the glove box? I have blown the fuse on something similar in my last car, however I swapped to an upgraded alternator which caused the problem with the fuse on that. I don't think these trucks will allow enough power to blow it unless it's a surge. Just my thoughts though.

I fully understand that eTorque uses an MGU in place of an alternator, however, like an alternator, it also supplies power to the battery which will significantly supplement the battery's output when using a winch. I assume its output would be similar to the alternator on a non-eTorque model as it still needs to replace the function of the alternator to keep the battery charged and the vehicle properly powered. ETorque also has a 48 Volt nickel manganese cobalt lithium-ion battery pack and a DC to DC converter to supply additional 12 Volt power to the system.

Again, adding any component that could blow the IBS is not a good idea even if you carry a spare. If any component is added that can potentially draw over 200 amps all on its own, it must be wired to bypass the IBS.

Power considerations for a winch are not the same as for an amplifier. The winch only draws high current intermittently and for relatively short periods of time whereas a power amp, depending upon how it's used, may require high current levels more consistently. In such a case, adding a second alternator may be justified. I wouldn't want to attempt it on an eTorque equipped vehicle though because of the added complexity in managing the MGU and the 48 Volt battery pack. It may interfere. Some additional research and consideration would be required before attempting that.

 

[Th8785]

I fully understand that eTorque uses an MGU in place of an alternator, however, like an alternator, it also supplies power to the battery which will significantly supplement the battery's output when using a winch. I assume its output would be similar to the alternator on a non-eTorque model as it still needs to replace the function of the alternator to keep the battery charged and the vehicle properly powered. ETorque also has a 48 Volt nickel manganese cobalt lithium-ion battery pack and a DC to DC converter to supply additional 12 Volt power to the system.

Again, adding any component that could blow the IBS is not a good idea even if you carry a spare. If any component is added that can potentially draw over 200 amps all on its own, it must be wired to bypass the IBS.

Power considerations for a winch are not the same as for an amplifier. The winch only draws high current intermittently and for relatively short periods of time whereas a power amp, depending upon how it's used, may require high current levels more consistently. In such a case, adding a second alternator may be justified. I wouldn't want to attempt it on an eTorque equipped vehicle though because of the added complexity in managing the MGU and the 48 Volt battery pack. It may interfere. Some additional research and consideration would be required before attempting that.

Understandable, I wasn't sure how much amperage the winch could draw in one pull, I guess how long it's in use is also a consideration. As far as adding an alt to the etorque, it shouldn't effect anything in theory, completely separate from truck charging should be fine but that bracket seems to be unheard of. The mgu charging the 48v, which in turn charges the 12v is my issue as it seems to be completely at random as far as voltage output. Another problem for another day I suppose

 

[HAL9001]

Update: A very important caveat on bypassing the IBS for winch installations.

If you decide to bypass the IBS for your winch, always keep in mind that this is only for when actually using the winch. The winch must be detached from the bypass wiring when not in use as I show in my example via the Anderson connector.

If you leave the winch attached to the bypass wiring such as in a permanent winch install, it could provide an alternate path to ground through the winch itself that could likely disable the IBS in normal vehicle operation. Disabling the IBS is never recommended! This may cause potentially serious unknown issues to occur. Do not make this mistake. I've seen several reputable winch installers on YouTube erroneously suggesting this incorrect permanent wiring, so beware of this. I've also seen winch installers erroneously suggesting other incorrect wiring for bypassing the IBS.

Temporarily bypassing the IBS only when the winch is in use is currently the only known workaround for anyone who wants to use a winch on an IBS-equipped RAM 1500 since the consensus is that the OE IBS may not be able to safely handle the extra current applied by the winch. This is only a workaround until this issue can be resolved. Do this at your own risk, and only if you have no other choice as it may result in unknown issues occurring and may void your warranty for certain related issues.

The only proper way to wire a winch to an IBS-equipped vehicle is to either ensure that the OE IBS can safely handle the extra current from the winch or to replace it with a fully compatible IBS with a properly rated ampacity.