Help with the ole tick tick tick

[kapinallinen2]

Rain is delayed till tomorrow....so awwwaaaayyyy we go. I keep fighting the urge to skip waiting for the penetrating oil to do it's thing and try to remove the bolts.......but I'm gonna be a good boy. Lol wish me luck, guys.

yes, I know the truck is dirty. Yes, I know that's criminal. Baby has been parked for a week and before that we were filming out in the country for several days. She's getting a bath as soon as the manifold is replaced. View attachment 183308

Wishing you luck.
My eyesight is not getting any better with age, invested in one of these, a game changer.
Astro Pneumatic 52SL 500x2 Lumen Wirelessly Rechargeable Folding LED Slim Light

 

[PurpleRT]

Let PB do its thing the last thing you wanna do is break a bolt and add more work for yourself on top of that fiasco you’ve already went through.

 

[ChadAllen]

Wishing you luck.
My eyesight is not getting any better with age, invested in one of these, a game changer.
Astro Pneumatic 52SL 500x2 Lumen Wirelessly Rechargeable Folding LED Slim Light

I have a similar light, but mine is a cheap craftsman that takes double a. Super handy to have, for sure

 

[ChadAllen]

Let PB do its thing the last thing you wanna do is break a bolt and add more work for yourself on top of that fiasco you’ve already went through.

Im gonna wait, for sure. I'm just anxious. Lol. I got the heat shield and flange bolts removed. So now I'm staring at the few remaining bolts and fighting back the demon on my shoulder that keeps saying "go on....try one. Just give it a little torque. Do it. Dooooo it."

Blargh! I'm gonna put the tools away so I'm not tempted. Hahaha

 

[PurpleRT]

Wouldn’t be a bad idea either to have a little propane torch handy in case you do need some heat persuasions (of course be safe and have something to put out a fire worse case).

 

[kapinallinen2]

I have a similar light, but mine is a cheap craftsman that takes double a. Super handy to have, for sure

Nothing wrong with craftsman.

 

[ChadAllen]

UPDATE: the old manifold is off. No broken bolts. A couple of them turned pretty easily, so maybe loose bolts were part of my problem. Taking a little break from the texas heat and I'll get the new one installed.

Crazy thing: few seconds after I pulled the old manifold out and set it on the driveway, the crack vanished. I can't see it at all now. Damnedest thing

 

[kapinallinen2]

UPDATE: the old manifold is off. No broken bolts. A couple of them turned pretty easily, so maybe loose bolts were part of my problem. Taking a little break from the texas heat and I'll get the new one installed.

Crazy thing: few seconds after I pulled the old manifold out and set it on the driveway, the crack vanished. I can't see it at all now. Damnedest thing View attachment 183358

Put a straight edge on it, bet you can see daylight at the ends of it.

 

[ChadAllen]

Put a straight edge on it, bet you can see daylight at the ends of it.

Boy, when you're right, you're right. Lol. Definitely warped

 

[ChadAllen]

UPDATE: got the passenger side replaced, which is where the ticking was coming from.

Unfortunately, no change to the tick. I still need to change the driver side, but it's looking like I have something else going on. Rolling around under the vehicle, it definitely sounds like it's coming from underneath toward the back of the engine, though I still haven't been able to pinpoint with the stethoscope. I can hear it pretty much everywhere underneath

Shoot, I can even hear the ticking when I put the stethoscope on the front half of the transmission. I dunno. Guess it's time to bite the bullet and have a shop look at it.

Oh....question: is there supposed to be a gasket where the exhaust meets the manifold. There wasn't one on the old one and the kit with the new one didn't have one, just seems odd in my head.

 

[kapinallinen2]

is there supposed to be a gasket where the exhaust meets the manifold. There wasn't one on the old one and the kit with the new one didn't have one, just seems odd in my head.

No gasket, you good on that, rest of it, not sure, good luck.

 

[ChadAllen]

Had my old school mechanic dad listen to it. Sounds like the ticking is coming from cylinder 6 or 8. He doesn't think it's lifters. To him he said it sounds like valve slap. Far as I understand, there's no valve adjustment that can be done on these. Thankfully, I'm 100% sure it isn't rod knock. We put the stethoscope on the oil pan and there's no ticking coming from there. If it's valve slap, maybe I have a bent pushrod. Dunno. Or hey.... maybe it's the lifters.

I'm just going to take it to a shop and have them diagnose. I'd rather be certain what it is before I start ripping the engine apart.

I'll keep this thread updated.

 

[Vulpes]

Had my old school mechanic dad listen to it. Sounds like the ticking is coming from cylinder 6 or 8. He doesn't think it's lifters. To him he said it sounds like valve slap. Far as I understand, there's no valve adjustment that can be done on these. Thankfully, I'm 100% sure it isn't rod knock. We put the stethoscope on the oil pan and there's no ticking coming from there. If it's valve slap, maybe I have a bent pushrod. Dunno. Or hey.... maybe it's the lifters.

I'm just going to take it to a shop and have them diagnose. I'd rather be certain what it is before I start ripping the engine apart.

I'll keep this thread updated.

Great news it's not the lower end making noise! Upper valve train, while not ideal, is a bit easier. Hopefully it's something that can be remedied without pulling the engine, like pulling a valve cover.

Maybe this? Found this on tappet noise:

HYDRAULIC TAPPETS​

Check the oil pressure before disassembling any part of the engine to correct tappet noise. If vehicle has no oil pressure gauge, install a reliable gauge at the pressure sending-unit. The pressure should be between 107-758 kPa (25-110 psi) at 3,000 RPM (Refer to 09 - Engine/Lubrication/Diagnosis and Testing) .

Check the oil level after the engine reaches normal operating temperature. Allow five minutes for the oil level to stabilize before checking the oil level. The oil level in the pan should never be above the FULL mark or below the ADD OIL mark on the dipstick. Either of these two conditions could be responsible for noisy tappets.

OIL LEVEL​

HIGH​

If the oil level is above the FULL mark, it is possible for the connecting rods to dip into the oil. With the engine running, this condition could create foam in the oil pan. Foam in the oil pan would be fed to the hydraulic tappets by the oil pump causing them to lose length and allow the valves to seat noisily.

LOW​

Low oil level may allow the oil pump to take in air. When air is fed to the tappets, they lose length, which allows valves to seat noisily. Any leaks on the intake side of the oil pump through which air can be drawn creates the same tappet action. Check the lubrication system from the intake strainer to the pump cover, including the relief valve retainer cap. When tappet noise is due to aeration, it may be intermittent or constant, and usually more than one tappet will be noisy. When the oil level and leaks have been corrected, operate the engine at fast idle. Run the engine for a sufficient amount of time to allow all of the air inside the tappets to bleed out.

TAPPET NOISE DIAGNOSIS​

1. To determine the source of tappet noise, crank the engine over with the cylinder head covers removed.
2. Feel each valve spring or rocker arm to detect the noisy tappet. The noisy tappet will cause the affected spring and/or rocker arm to vibrate or feel rough in operation.
   NOTE:
   Worn valve guides or ****ed springs are sometimes mistaken for noisy tappets. If such is the case, noise may be dampened by applying side thrust on the valve spring. If noise is not appreciably reduced, it can be assumed the noise is in the tappet. Inspect the rocker arm pushrod sockets and pushrod ends for wear.
3. Valve tappet noise ranges from light noise to a heavy click. A light noise is usually caused by excessive leak-down around the unit plunger, or by the plunger partially sticking in the tappet body cylinder. The tappet should be replaced. A heavy click is caused by a tappet check valve not seating, or by foreign particles wedged between the plunger and the tappet body. This will cause the plunger to stick in the down position. This heavy click will be accompanied by excessive clearance between the valve stem and rocker arm as valve closes. In either case, tappet assembly should be removed for inspection and cleaning.
4. The valve train generates a noise very much like a light tappet noise during normal operation. Care must be taken to ensure that tappets are making the noise. If more than one tappet seems to be noisy, it's probably not the tappets.

LIFTER PURGE GUIDELINE​

1. Warm engine to standard idle conditions.
   NOTE:
   Engine noise may be in the form of a clicking, chatter, or clattering noise.
2. Listen to the engine for 30 to 60 seconds with the hood up and the engine cover removed.
3. If noise is present, de-aeration of the lifters is required.
4. Run the engine between 2000 and 3000 RPM for three to five minutes.
5. Return the engine to standard idle speed for 30 to 60 seconds.
6. Evaluate noise. If noise is present, repeat the run an additional 4 cycles.
   NOTE:
   The standard drive cycle will be about 10 - 15 miles of non- stop, combined highway and city driving.
7. If noise is present, take the vehicle on a standard drive cycle.
   NOTE:
   Use a feeler gauge to verify clearance is present between the lifter and cam base circle.
8. Evaluate the noise. If noise present, follow standard service procedure for lifter repairs or noise conditions.
9. Evaluate lifters for sponginess, check valve defects, and clearance.

 

[drew7811]

I just had both the driver and passenger manifolds replaced. Initially I had the bad ticking from one side (fixed it) then the other side started within a month. I do believe a couple of bolts broke off when trying to remove, but all was replaced and it's running quiet again. 73k miles.

 

[ChadAllen]

Great news it's not the lower end making noise! Upper valve train, while not ideal, is a bit easier. Hopefully it's something that can be remedied without pulling the engine, like pulling a valve cover.

Maybe this? Found this on tappet noise:

HYDRAULIC TAPPETS​

Check the oil pressure before disassembling any part of the engine to correct tappet noise. If vehicle has no oil pressure gauge, install a reliable gauge at the pressure sending-unit. The pressure should be between 107-758 kPa (25-110 psi) at 3,000 RPM (Refer to 09 - Engine/Lubrication/Diagnosis and Testing) .

Check the oil level after the engine reaches normal operating temperature. Allow five minutes for the oil level to stabilize before checking the oil level. The oil level in the pan should never be above the FULL mark or below the ADD OIL mark on the dipstick. Either of these two conditions could be responsible for noisy tappets.

OIL LEVEL​

HIGH​

If the oil level is above the FULL mark, it is possible for the connecting rods to dip into the oil. With the engine running, this condition could create foam in the oil pan. Foam in the oil pan would be fed to the hydraulic tappets by the oil pump causing them to lose length and allow the valves to seat noisily.

LOW​

Low oil level may allow the oil pump to take in air. When air is fed to the tappets, they lose length, which allows valves to seat noisily. Any leaks on the intake side of the oil pump through which air can be drawn creates the same tappet action. Check the lubrication system from the intake strainer to the pump cover, including the relief valve retainer cap. When tappet noise is due to aeration, it may be intermittent or constant, and usually more than one tappet will be noisy. When the oil level and leaks have been corrected, operate the engine at fast idle. Run the engine for a sufficient amount of time to allow all of the air inside the tappets to bleed out.

TAPPET NOISE DIAGNOSIS​

1. To determine the source of tappet noise, crank the engine over with the cylinder head covers removed.
2. Feel each valve spring or rocker arm to detect the noisy tappet. The noisy tappet will cause the affected spring and/or rocker arm to vibrate or feel rough in operation.
   NOTE:
   Worn valve guides or ****ed springs are sometimes mistaken for noisy tappets. If such is the case, noise may be dampened by applying side thrust on the valve spring. If noise is not appreciably reduced, it can be assumed the noise is in the tappet. Inspect the rocker arm pushrod sockets and pushrod ends for wear.
3. Valve tappet noise ranges from light noise to a heavy click. A light noise is usually caused by excessive leak-down around the unit plunger, or by the plunger partially sticking in the tappet body cylinder. The tappet should be replaced. A heavy click is caused by a tappet check valve not seating, or by foreign particles wedged between the plunger and the tappet body. This will cause the plunger to stick in the down position. This heavy click will be accompanied by excessive clearance between the valve stem and rocker arm as valve closes. In either case, tappet assembly should be removed for inspection and cleaning.
4. The valve train generates a noise very much like a light tappet noise during normal operation. Care must be taken to ensure that tappets are making the noise. If more than one tappet seems to be noisy, it's probably not the tappets.

LIFTER PURGE GUIDELINE​

1. Warm engine to standard idle conditions.
   NOTE:
   Engine noise may be in the form of a clicking, chatter, or clattering noise.
2. Listen to the engine for 30 to 60 seconds with the hood up and the engine cover removed.
3. If noise is present, de-aeration of the lifters is required.
4. Run the engine between 2000 and 3000 RPM for three to five minutes.
5. Return the engine to standard idle speed for 30 to 60 seconds.
6. Evaluate noise. If noise is present, repeat the run an additional 4 cycles.
   NOTE:
   The standard drive cycle will be about 10 - 15 miles of non- stop, combined highway and city driving.
7. If noise is present, take the vehicle on a standard drive cycle.
   NOTE:
   Use a feeler gauge to verify clearance is present between the lifter and cam base circle.
8. Evaluate the noise. If noise present, follow standard service procedure for lifter repairs or noise conditions.
9. Evaluate lifters for sponginess, check valve defects, and clearance.

Appreciate all that info. I double and triple checked the old oil I dropped last week for metal shavings. Don't see any glitter. I scooped a magnet through the oil as well. No metal on the magnet. If the tick is the lifter smacking the cam, I'd expect to see metal, but I don't.
Haven't had a chance to get to a shop, but a friend of mine has a brother than is a ram tech. He's putting me in touch with him.

I can tell you this much, if it ends up being an issue that requires pulling the engine, or an engine rebuild then I am selling this truck. Blown engine at 72k? No thanks. I'll take the L and never buy another Ram. I babied the hell out of this engine. Best oil. Best filter. Timely oil changes. Never hot rodded it. Only tow a small pop up camper.....if the engine can't handle that then I can't be in a Ram.


Hopefully I'm just getting ahead of myself.

 

[silver billet]

I can tell you this much, if it ends up being an issue that requires pulling the engine, or an engine rebuild then I am selling this truck. Blown engine at 72k? No thanks. I'll take the L and never buy another Ram. I babied the hell out of this engine. Best oil. Best filter. Timely oil changes. Never hot rodded it. Only tow a small pop up camper.....if the engine can't handle that then I can't be in a Ram.

I understand that sentiment, and I'd be equally mad if it happens to me. Just know that half ton truck engines are a complete mess these days across all the brands; either that or forums are just getting more and more people so we're hearing more and more stories. But GM's v8's are the worst for catastrophic failures, the new tundras have issues, Ford's EBs have issues, the 5.0 coyote probably has the best reputation but then its stuck in front of their crummy 10 speed which has its own issues (jerking and just a poor experience).

You may be part of the 3% hemi tick club. "Best oil", please define, unless you're running HPL, Redline, Mobil 1 0w-40 then you're not running the best oil and you'd probably want to up the viscosity too but hemi failures are not oil related per se, they're metallurgic failures. The lifters and/or the cams are sometimes not hardened properly and you either get a failure, or your engine runs well past 250k without failures.

The other forum has lots of information on this as they go back to 4th gen rams with hemis and have been experimenting and collecting data on this problem for many years. Current advice there is to run Redline 5w-30 with a RP 20-820 and change it every 5000 miles (the indicator should be ignored). Better oil may not save you, it may extend the life, we don't really have any proof on that. But it has stopped ticking noises in the past.

 

[ChadAllen]

UPDATE: I'm a little more optimistic

I understand that sentiment, and I'd be equally mad if it happens to me. Just know that half ton truck engines are a complete mess these days across all the brands; either that or forums are just getting more and more people so we're hearing more and more stories. But GM's v8's are the worst for catastrophic failures, the new tundras have issues, Ford's EBs have issues, the 5.0 coyote probably has the best reputation but then its stuck in front of their crummy 10 speed which has its own issues (jerking and just a poor experience).

You may be part of the 3% hemi tick club. "Best oil", please define, unless you're running HPL, Redline, Mobil 1 0w-40 then you're not running the best oil and you'd probably want to up the viscosity too but hemi failures are not oil related per se, they're metallurgic failures. The lifters and/or the cams are sometimes not hardened properly and you either get a failure, or your engine runs well past 250k without failures.

The other forum has lots of information on this as they go back to 4th gen rams with hemis and have been experimenting and collecting data on this problem for many years. Current advice there is to run Redline 5w-30 with a RP 20-820 and change it every 5000 miles (the indicator should be ignored). Better oil may not save you, it may extend the life, we don't really have any proof on that. But it has stopped ticking noises in the past.

I should rephrase to "best oil I can get here". Redline isn't easy to find in this town. I've been running Pennzoil ultra platinum 5w-20 (that's the vis recommended in my owners manual). The first year or so I owned it I ran Royal purple as I have in every engine I've ever owned and it's worked phenomonally. I got 350k out of a Chevy engine using it (crazy, right? LOL)

But after talking with a couple Ram Tech friends, they convinced me to use the Pennzoil.
The point I was meaning to make is that I was proactive. I wasn't dumping bargain Wal Mart oil in and running it till the dash indicator told me to change it. I wasn't taking it to a quick lube place and having them drop in whatever random shop oil they use. Every oil change I would reset the trip indicator and right at 5k, boop. new oil. If I towed the camper long distances, I'd change it soon as we got home, regardless of miles. That's more oil changes than I've done on any vehicle I've ever owned.... precisely because it is a hemi and I heard the stories.

It's my belief that Chrysler's stance that the lifters are failing because of bad oil, change intervals, or excessive idling is just their way of blaiming the customer so they don't have to take any actions to fix what is obviously their fault. I'm not sure if it's because of a design problem with the engine itself..... I think, rather, it's because the lifters are poorly made, probably in China. That's just my humble opinion, of course.

 

[ChadAllen]

UPDATE: Out of an abundance of.... well... paranoia, I started checking the oil for metal shavings. I still have the old oil from my last oil change. I dunke a retrieval magnet in it.... no metal bits on the magnet. I took a sample in a glass jar. I don't see any glitter. I let it sit overnight and didn't see anything settled to the bottom. All good signs.


Chrysler says if a vehicle comes in with a knock or tick, the first thing the tech is supposed to check is the oil control valve. If there is any metal shavings stuck to the screens on the valve, then Chrysler says the whole engine must be changed.
Last night I pulled the OCV valve. Clean as a whistle.
All of this is making me hopeful/optimistic that the cam lobes aren't shredded. If the the lifter had shaved down the cam, I'd expect to find glitter in the oil, or the OCV. Pulling the valve cover tonight. If I don't find any glitter there, I'm going to feel a lot better. Changing bad lifters won't be fun, but it'll be a lot less of a pain than also changing the cam.

 

[ChadAllen]

UPDATE: The confusion continues. Pulled the valve cover off the passenger side. There's a little side to side play on the rockers, but im told that's normal. There's no up/down play which would point to a failed lifter. So now I'm not so sure I have a bad lifter after all. Here's a video. What do the experts think my next step should be?

 

[kapinallinen2]

UPDATE: The confusion continues. Pulled the valve cover off the passenger side. There's a little side to side play on the rockers, but im told that's normal. There's no up/down play which would point to a failed lifter. So now I'm not so sure I have a bad lifter after all. Here's a video. What do the experts think my next step should be?

Not an expert but I think that a visual on the cam and the lifters is necessary to eliminate them.
Could also be that a lifter could be failing/collapsing under load.