Help with the ole tick tick tick

[ChadAllen]

UPDATE: I'm currently in a holding pattern. I ordered parts from Mopar, but still waiting for them to arrive. In the meantime, I've come up with my plan. I sent an oil sample off to Blackstone. If that sample comes back with lots of metal in the oil, then I am going to return the parts and sell this truck. If the analysis comes back clean, THEN I'll pull the heads and replace those lifters. There's no point, in my mind, of changing the cam and lifters if metal from the cam is already circulating through the engine. That metal will never be completely removed and will most definitely destroy rod bearings at some point. Went through this with my wife's Santa Fe. They left metal in the block from the machining process. The dealer did an oil flush, but there's no way to be sure ALL the metal was retrieved. Her engine completely seized a few thousand miles later. She ended up needing a new engine.

I'm not taking that risk in a vehicle that tows a camper all the time...... cause my luck THAT will be when the engine fails.

I will keep you all posted. Thanks again for everything

 

[silver billet]

UPDATE: I'm currently in a holding pattern. I ordered parts from Mopar, but still waiting for them to arrive. In the meantime, I've come up with my plan. I sent an oil sample off to Blackstone. If that sample comes back with lots of metal in the oil, then I am going to return the parts and sell this truck. If the analysis comes back clean, THEN I'll pull the heads and replace those lifters. There's no point, in my mind, of changing the cam and lifters if metal from the cam is already circulating through the engine. That metal will never be completely removed and will most definitely destroy rod bearings at some point. Went through this with my wife's Santa Fe. They left metal in the block from the machining process. The dealer did an oil flush, but there's no way to be sure ALL the metal was retrieved. Her engine completely seized a few thousand miles later. She ended up needing a new engine.

I'm not taking that risk in a vehicle that tows a camper all the time...... cause my luck THAT will be when the engine fails.

I will keep you all posted. Thanks again for everything

Just note that blackstone labs (or any UOA) is not conclusive if it comes back negative on high wear metals. UOA's only look at a tiny fraction of the size that particles can be, and a number of guys have reported lifter failure with 0 warning from their UOAs.

 

[MT755]

Greetings everyone! My 2019 5.7 4wd recently started that infamous ticking. I'm trying to narrow down the source before I commit to tearing things apart. The only Ram dealer in town is a piece of work and I'm out of warranty (71k miles) so I'll be doing it myself. Any help with diagnosis would be greatly appreciated.

The tick is faint. I don't hear it while I am driving, or even sitting at a stop sign with the windows down. Only hear it when I'm walking around the front of the truck or at a drive thru where the engine echoes off the wall. It doesn't get louder or quieter at any point. It doesn't go away as the engine warms. But it's also not louder at start up. I've had a couple cars in my life with bad lifters and the ticking was always louder on initial startup until those initial rpms drop to idle as the oil first starts circulating. If anything, the tick doesn't start until that initial sequence is done and the rpm drops.

I took a stethoscope to it and I'm having a hell of a time pinpointing it. Stuck in a gap under the intake manifold Same for valve covers on both sides, heads and exhaust manifolds. Never had a point where I touched the stethoscope and said "whoa, there it is." I could hear it faintly everywhere.

No codes. Idle is smooth. Drives fine. Normal acceleration.

I change the oil when recommended, use Mopar filters and royal purple full synthetic. I know the lifters don't like idling, so I don't do that except at red lights (of course). Did everything right, so if it's the lifters I'm gonna be.....well, you know.

Any other tricks I can try? My brain is telling me maybe there is a crack in the exhaust manifold that is amplifying an otherwise normal internal tick, but I don't know. The engine is too hot right now to pull off the heat shields to check, and it's about to start pouring rain. Just thought I'd ask for help brainstorming while I wait.

Truly appreciate any help.

I've heard someone ran thicker oil and that cured it

 

[ChadAllen]

Just note that blackstone labs (or any UOA) is not conclusive if it comes back negative on high wear metals. UOA's only look at a tiny fraction of the size that particles can be, and a number of guys have reported lifter failure with 0 warning from their UOAs.

Totally understand that. It's an odds game. I'm on the hunt for metal before I go to pulling the head. I ran a magnet through the old oil, no metal. I pulled the OCV valve to look for metal on the screens as Chrysler recommends, nothing. Clean as a whistle. I pulled the valve cover on the passenger side (where the tick is coming from) looking for glitter and found nothing. So far so good. If the Blackstone analysis also comes back clean, it's just another piece of the puzzle.

Of course, the final decision comes when/if I remove the head and can physically examine the camshaft lobes.

If I, or Blackstone find metal, I'm done there. The heads stay on and the truck gets sold. It neither of us find metal, then I'll take on the task of removing the head and visually inspect that cam. Just not worth the effort if I already know ahead of time that it's shot

 

[ChadAllen]

I've heard someone ran thicker oil and that cured it

It depends what is causing the tick. These engines aren't quiet. Sometimes the tick is nothing. You hear people driving with it for years with no issue. That tick is where the thicker oil would help. But if the tick is coming from a frozen lifter slowly eating the cam, no amount of oil is going to fix that. It might quiet it for a bit until the cam is too far gone. Unfortunately, both ticks sound similar and the only way to REALLY know which tick you have is to open it up and inspect the parts.

 

[RAL]

What do you lose by driving it and checking the oil for metal when you change it? At 70k, the truck is not new and for the sake of another 10-15k miles you aren’t going to destroy its value.
Candidly, some tick on these motors is pretty normal. Mine starts to tick when the oil has some age - probably shearing down from wear and once I change it (I do it every 5k with the Mobil full synthetic 5/20) then it is quiet again. Whatever bulk oil the dealer uses tends to be the least quiet. But again, be careful not to overthink this. Good luck.

 

[ChadAllen]

UPDATE: Here it is, folks. One of the MDS lifters in 6 and one in 4 failed. The pins inside the lifter spun out of place, no longer lining up with the holes. Zoom in on the bottom lifter in the photo and you'll see what I mean.

None of the rollers are damaged/loose. Sent the borescope down and the cam looks fine.

Of the pair of ways lifters can fail on this truck, this is the best possible scenario. Now for the fun task of cleaning everything up and putting it back together.

 

[frisby5]

UPDATE: Here it is, folks. One of the MDS lifters in 6 and one in 4 failed. The pins inside the lifter spun out of place, no longer lining up with the holes. Zoom in on the bottom lifter in the photo and you'll see what I mean.

None of the rollers are damaged/loose. Sent the borescope down and the cam looks fine.

Of the pair of ways lifters can fail on this truck, this is the best possible scenario. Now for the fun task of cleaning everything up and putting it back together.

View attachment 184255

Are you gonna do a MDS delete kit or just fix the lifters?

 

[ChadAllen]

Are you gonna do a MDS delete kit or just fix the lifters?

Much as I would like to do the MDS delete, it's not really financially viable for me. If these new lifters get me 70k miles like these old ones did, I'll be over 140k and ready to look for a new truck anyway.

Till then I'll just be using the the gear limit switch trick, or tow/haul to keep the MDS from activating

 

[frisby5]

Much as I would like to do the MDS delete, it's not really financially viable for me. If these new lifters get me 70k miles like these old ones did, I'll be over 140k and ready to look for a new truck anyway.

Till then I'll just be using the the gear limit switch trick, or tow/haul to keep the MDS from activating

Maybe you can find a tuner and get it tuned out that maybe what im gonna do, i plan on getting mine tuned out until my warranty is over then i want to get a delete kit and a hellcat oil pump. I plan on keeping my truck for awhile.

 

[silver billet]

UPDATE: Here it is, folks. One of the MDS lifters in 6 and one in 4 failed. The pins inside the lifter spun out of place, no longer lining up with the holes. Zoom in on the bottom lifter in the photo and you'll see what I mean.

If I remember correctly, that's not a problem. Please see "Reignited" on YT, he is a certified FCA mechanic and in a number of videos he describes the MDS system in great detail. Those pins will spin internally in the lifter, even though it seems like its an issue it actually isn't.

 

[ChadAllen]

If I remember correctly, that's not a problem. Please see "Reignited" on YT, he is a certified FCA mechanic and in a number of videos he describes the MDS system in great detail. Those pins will spin internally in the lifter, even though it seems like its an issue it actually isn't.

I've watched a bunch of his vids. Can't imagine it being anything else. The way they are that would mean one lifter is active and the other is deactivated....meaning one valve would still be functioning in that cylinder. Don't seem right to me. Deactivating the cylinder would shut off both valves, I would think

Everything else in the valvetrain is in good shape. Only thing left that could be ticking is lifters. It's definitely not rod knock. I've had that in a previous vehicle. This tick sounds nothing like that.

 

[silver billet]

I've watched a bunch of his vids. Can't imagine it being anything else. The way they are that would mean one lifter is active and the other is deactivated....meaning one valve would still be functioning in that cylinder. Don't seem right to me. Deactivating the cylinder would shut off both valves, I would think

Everything else in the valvetrain is in good shape. Only thing left that could be ticking is lifters. It's definitely not rod knock. I've had that in a previous vehicle. This tick sounds nothing like that.

According to him, the pins aren't required to be centered in the hole in order for the lifter to function.

I will try to find the exact video/time stamp where he talks about this. It stuck in my mind because I remember it sounding so completely wrong to what I expected.

Thinking about it logically though, if that lifter wasn't working properly due to the pin/alignment, then that means the lifter would be running permanently in a collapsed state, meaning, the associated valve is no longer opening/closing. The computer wouldn't know that, so while idling or anytime that MDS is supposed to be off, the "broken" lifter would then not be allowing air into the cylinder (if it was intake valve) causing misfires, or it would not be allowing exhaust out causing who knows what.

I don't think that's your issue.

 

[ChadAllen]

According to him, the pins aren't required to be centered in the hole in order for the lifter to function.

I will try to find the exact video/time stamp where he talks about this. It stuck in my mind because I remember it sounding so completely wrong to what I expected.

Thinking about it logically though, if that lifter wasn't working properly due to the pin/alignment, then that means the lifter would be running permanently in a collapsed state, meaning, the associated valve is no longer opening/closing. The computer wouldn't know that, so while idling or anytime that MDS is supposed to be off, the "broken" lifter would then not be allowing air into the cylinder (if it was intake valve) causing misfires, or it would not be allowing exhaust out causing who knows what.

I don't think that's your issue.

At this point, it doesn't make much difference. Lol. Maybe there is an internal lifter hydraulic failure unrelated to the pin. Who knows. We are at the point they are getting replaced anyway.

I've heard different things from different Ram techs. My buddy has a friend who's been a Ram tech for 17 years. Talked to him about it this morning. He says it doesn't automatically mean the lifter failed, but it could. He still thinks it's the lifter given all the other evidence.

The valve springs are good. The rockers are good. The pushrods are good. The valve seats and valves are good. The spark plugs are good. I ran a borescope down each lifter hole and manually turned the engine to examine all sides of the lobes, the camshaft is good. The ticking isn't coming from the rods, verified that with the stethoscope (and two mechanics looking at it).

The tick is definitely from the bottom end of the valvetrain system on the passenger side.

Can't imagine what else it can be. But at least now I know whatever the tick is, it's not the fatal cam eating tick. That's good to know

 

[ChadAllen]

Update: it's 100% a problem with those two MDS lifters in 6 and 4. Something told me to send the borescope back down and manually turn the engine again. Missed this the first time, it probably got lost in the glare from the scope light. But the lobe on 4 and 6 has this damage. No damage on any of the other lobes, triple checked. So those lifters definitely damaged the cam. Now to decide.....repair or trade in.

 

[ChadAllen]

CORRECTION: My bad. I was looking at the files on my borescope wrong. That photo did NOT come from 6 or 4. It came from cylinder 8. Sorry about that inaccuracy. I was pouring sweat and really frustrated at the time, so I thought I was looking at the files from 6, but hey.... I do dumb things sometimes. Apologies again.
Still... I can't figure out how that damage occured. Doesn't make sense.

 

[silver billet]

CORRECTION: My bad. I was looking at the files on my borescope wrong. That photo did NOT come from 6 or 4. It came from cylinder 8. Sorry about that inaccuracy. I was pouring sweat and really frustrated at the time, so I thought I was looking at the files from 6, but hey.... I do dumb things sometimes. Apologies again.
Still... I can't figure out how that damage occured. Doesn't make sense.

Lots of theories out there. The most likely is, poor cam or lifter hardening.

However, you can take steps to mitigate this in the future, running a premium oil (instead of royal purple, it doesn't have a great reputation), running a thicker viscosity (5w-30 offers more protection due to greater HT/HS especially while hot), and changing your oil at 5000 mile intervals instead of relying on the meter in the truck. A higher efficiency filter like the royal purple 20-820 or fram xg2 is also widely recommended instead of stock/mopar.

 

[ChadAllen]

Lots of theories out there. The most likely is, poor cam or lifter hardening.

However, you can take steps to mitigate this in the future, running a premium oil (instead of royal purple, it doesn't have a great reputation), running a thicker viscosity (5w-30 offers more protection due to greater HT/HS especially while hot), and changing your oil at 5000 mile intervals instead of relying on the meter in the truck. A higher efficiency filter like the royal purple 20-820 or fram xg2 is also widely recommended instead of stock/mopar.

I switched up to Pennzoil Ultra Platinum a while back, though a majority of my time with this engine was Royal Purple. I used RP in every vehicle I ever owned. Managed to get a Silverado to over 300k with RP..... so RP can't be all that bad. Better than bargain oil, anyway.
I would definitely say it has to be poor cam hardening. There's no damage to the lifter, push rod.... none of that. It was getting plenty of lubrication and as I think I mentioned before, I was always hyper vigilant about not idling the truck, precisely because Ram claimed that was the cause. Shoot, if I was stuck in a traffic jam, I've rolled the window down and shut the truck off (it doesn't have the auto start system) rather than idling it. THAT is how vigilant I was about the idle issue.

Can't think of any other explanation than manufacturer defect. Ram techs in another thread say they have been seeing this kind of spalling more often than lifter failures. They'll have a failed lifter on one lobe, but find spalling on several other lobes.

No question this is a manufacturer defect, in my mind anyway. Ram needs to quit victim blaming.

 

[silver billet]

I think most of us agree it's a manufacturers defect. But the reason I suggested different oil is because the other forum has had a lot of success using premium oils like Redline 5w-30 to reduce/eliminate ticking noises. I don't think its going to solve the issue completely, but as far as I recall RP does not use any/much molybdenum (which is a friction modifier) in their formula and that appears to be one reason why Redline and HPL oils are successful with the tick. HPL's level of moly is through the roof, even more than Redline.

Biotech LubeGuard mixed in with other oils has also had some success, and that appears to be mainly a strong dose of moly though still not reaching near RL/HPL levels.

And finally the viscosity; well viscosity is the first defence of keeping your parts separated physically. When oil gets hot and thins out, its protection decreases. HT/HS is critical here especially if you tow or get your engine really hot. I'd never run a 20 weight in a hemi known to have cases with weak cams/lifters, its almost asking for trouble. You can run 40 weight oil with 0 problems (I did that for an entire summer), wear metals in the UOA were quite low vs the 20 weight I ran almost immediately before that.

Just some thoughts from the peanut gallery.

Hope you get your truck up and running without too much cost.

 

[ChadAllen]

I think most of us agree it's a manufacturers defect. But the reason I suggested different oil is because the other forum has had a lot of success using premium oils like Redline 5w-30 to reduce/eliminate ticking noises. I don't think its going to solve the issue completely, but as far as I recall RP does not use any/much molybdenum (which is a friction modifier) in their formula and that appears to be one reason why Redline and HPL oils are successful with the tick. HPL's level of moly is through the roof, even more than Redline.

Biotech LubeGuard mixed in with other oils has also had some success, and that appears to be mainly a strong dose of moly though still not reaching near RL/HPL levels.

And finally the viscosity; well viscosity is the first defence of keeping your parts separated physically. When oil gets hot and thins out, its protection decreases. HT/HS is critical here especially if you tow or get your engine really hot. I'd never run a 20 weight in a hemi known to have cases with weak cams/lifters, its almost asking for trouble. You can run 40 weight oil with 0 problems (I did that for an entire summer), wear metals in the UOA were quite low vs the 20 weight I ran almost immediately before that.

Just some thoughts from the peanut gallery.

Hope you get your truck up and running without too much cost.

I hear ya. Unfortunately, I made the decision to get rid of the truck. It's been more problems than it's worth. This is just the nail in the coffin for me.

I'm on my fourth rear window. Finally did the DIY fix with Permatex. That worked for a while, but it's starting to show signs of needing to be scraped out and redone. My sun visor fell down in my face in rush hour traffic. My active grill shutters throw a code off and on, even after doing the recall, and I had the driver side ball joint break completely free of the composite upper control arm. Now this.

All trucks have issues, but some manufacturers stand behind their product more than others. Every one of those problems except for the shutters Ram blames on the customers. The cam is my fault for idling too much......I don't. The UCA is my fault because I did a lift or level.....I didn't. It is stock. The rear window leak they told me it's cause I use my sliding window too much. I don't. Never hit the button. Or I'm driving too hard on rough roads, causing flex in the cab. Also wrong.

I love this truck. But I'm not going to keep supporting a company that makes a terrible product and then blames us when it fails. Ram's constant victim blaming has pushed me right out of this truck.