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etorque does more than help with starts and smooth out shifts ....
- Thread starter cruz-in
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riccnick
Ram Guru
I'm so confused about what you're arguing... In none of the videos, does anyone state that the eTorque system uses the MGU to add torque to assist with forward movement. Is that what you're saying? The MGU will take some of the propulsion load at highway speed? It's just not true.
What they're talking about in the last video you posted, referencing extended 4cyl mode, is how when the 48v battery reduces the need for the MGU to act as an alternator, reducing parasitic losses, and improving fuel economy. He's saying it can run on fewer cylinders because it's not charging the 12v battery to run the accessories.
Am I missing something?
Start THAT video at 2:40 and listen to how he corrects these guys and says "Lets talk through that" multiple times.
THIS video is the best I've seen at explaining how eTorque works. Nick Cappa from Ram, starts to explain eTorque at 2:23
Saints
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In the end does it really matter? For what you pay for it and real world mpg gains you would probably not pay it off in the end. And then what happens when the battery goes out and you are out of warranty? More $$$.
Here is an extensive video where they explain How etorque helps at "highway " and "steady state"
The Engineer in this video is called "the father of etorque" aand you are claiming he is wrong?
Your point is:
1 you "don't believe" the Engineer know as "The Father of Etorque?
2) Even though he extensively discusses the advantages of etorgue at steady state, high way speeds, specifically citing 35 MPH or 70MPH, you "think he misspoke"
The Engineer in this video is called "the father of etorque" aand you are claiming he is wrong?
Your point is:
1 you "don't believe" the Engineer know as "The Father of Etorque?
2) Even though he extensively discusses the advantages of etorgue at steady state, high way speeds, specifically citing 35 MPH or 70MPH, you "think he misspoke"
riccnick
Ram Guru
Yes, that's the one I told you to watch from 2:40 on...
eTorque helps at highway speeds and steady state cruising by reducing the need for the parasitic loss of charging the 12v battery via the alternator, NOT by adding 130 lbs-ft of torque to the running Hemi.
rlc2020
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Well, It obviously doesn't matter what FCA or any engineer says about etorque, the real world mpg ratings are in the toilet. They spouted a bunch of hype about the system, but the system doesn't do much at all to affect the overall efficiency of the truck. There isn't enough juice in that battery back to move the truck for more than 30 seconds or so, so it helping at highway speeds is a joke. In theory could it? Yes. But I don't know of a single etorque truck getting 22mpg consistantly...
Please do a google search on the engineer in the video you say you do not believe and mispoke.
google "Brian Spohn + etorque"
Please read his credentials, His involvement in the creation of etorque, that he is considered "the father of etorque" and can you still say he is wrong?, you do not believe him? you think he misspoke?
Click here for an interview with Brian Spohn, the "Father of Etorque"
google "Brian Spohn + etorque"
Please read his credentials, His involvement in the creation of etorque, that he is considered "the father of etorque" and can you still say he is wrong?, you do not believe him? you think he misspoke?
Click here for an interview with Brian Spohn, the "Father of Etorque"
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I think the key statement you both agree on is that “...eTorque helps at highway speeds and steady-state cruising...”
I’m not sure anyone thinks that 130 lb-ft of torque is added under those conditions; surely the system only momentarily produces that output at low RPM.
riccnick
Ram Guru
I didn't say Brian Spohn misspoke, I said the guy with Mark Williams in the second video you posted misspoke (I believe). THAT guys name is Michael (Duhame? Didn't hear it well in the video)
I don't care who the father of eTorque is, what I care about is that people understand how it works and stop spreading misinformation around the forum. NONE of the other video's you posted, despite how many times you link the autoline video, say directly that eTorque adds propulsion power to the vehicle at cruising speeds. They ALL say that the eTorque system reduces the parasitic losses associated with steady state cruising and conventional alternator type charging loads.
Before you link it again, I am NOT saying I'm smarter than Brian Spohn, Mark Williams, You, or anyone else for that matter. What I'm saying is people have to be careful about what they say and how they say it about eTorque. Yes, even FCA affiliates, engineers, product specialists, and the like. It's not a competition for me, I'm trying to help spread the correct understanding of it.
Watch the video with Nick Cappa, I personally believe he does the best job at explaining the new features of the truck, and how eTorque works. I also believe that Bran Spohn did a great job too. However, to the point of this thread that you started, even according to the Brian Spohn video, the eTorque system does not use the MGU to boost the engine on gentle grades.
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No worries Ricnick. Honorable people can have a difference of opinion, I sincerely apologize if any of my arguing my position can be interpreted as criticism of you as a person. That was not my intent.
I have a Master's Degree in Electrical Engineering and I too dislike seeing misinformation spread. We should look to the experts for a description of how etorque works. IMHO, there is no expert like the Father of Etorque.
As an Electrical Engineer, I found it fascinating and spent many an evening researching how etorque operates. In my opinion, this video from Brian Spohn, the "Father of Etorque", does the best job of describing all etorque does. Brian clearly says (like the engineer in the other FCA Video) that etorque is used to extend 4 cylinder operation when operating at steady state highway speeds.
Link to Brian Spohn, the "Father of Etorque" describing how it is used to increase efficiency.
I have a Master's Degree in Electrical Engineering and I too dislike seeing misinformation spread. We should look to the experts for a description of how etorque works. IMHO, there is no expert like the Father of Etorque.
As an Electrical Engineer, I found it fascinating and spent many an evening researching how etorque operates. In my opinion, this video from Brian Spohn, the "Father of Etorque", does the best job of describing all etorque does. Brian clearly says (like the engineer in the other FCA Video) that etorque is used to extend 4 cylinder operation when operating at steady state highway speeds.
Link to Brian Spohn, the "Father of Etorque" describing how it is used to increase efficiency.
"Watch the video with Nick Cappa, I personally believe he does the best job at explaining the new features of the truck, and how eTorque works.
Check your sources.
Do you realize Nick Cappa is RAM Trucks Media Relations? Google him! He is a media guy with a degree in Business Administration.
You really trust someone from Media Relations, who has a Business Degrese, over Brian Spohn? The engineer who is credited with the Creation of etorque?
Wow!
Check your sources.
Do you realize Nick Cappa is RAM Trucks Media Relations? Google him! He is a media guy with a degree in Business Administration.
You really trust someone from Media Relations, who has a Business Degrese, over Brian Spohn? The engineer who is credited with the Creation of etorque?
Wow!
riccnick
Ram Guru
You have to be getting paid per link to that video!
I'm a Mechanical Engineer, soooo I also understand things...
I didn't say Nick Cappa is smarter or more qualified than Brian Spohn, I said I believe he does a better job at explaining the exact same thing that Brian is. Both of them are primed by FCA's marketing and legal departments about what they can say and how they can say it.
This is what you said, and linked an article that said it. Do you agree with THIS statement?
Not once does Brian Spohn say this. Brian Spohn says they've been able to extend the operating range of the MDS due to the ANC (Active Noise Cancellation) and TMM (Tuned Mass Modules), which neither is a part of the eTorque system, and is standard on every 2019 Ram 1500.
Brian Spohn is not the inventor of MGU's, belt driven starter generators, hybrid trucks, or start stop systems. He's an engineer. He worked with a HUGE team of engineers and collaborated with them to develop the eTorque system. Maybe it's his concept specific to Ram, but he's not God Almighty when it comes to this product or how it works. He's a team lead, and the Assistant Chief Engineer for the Electrification Propulsion Systems department. "Father of eTorque" is a nickname, not his title. And honestly, the way they bring it up in your repeatedly linked video, they sound cynical when saying it. He's probably the "Father of eTorque" because the project was crazy difficult, underfunded, and rushed through the company and he's the guy who drew the short straw on who was gonna answer to the investors on why it wasn't done this quarter to make the profits look better. I bet if you dig long enough, his name isn't on any of the eTorque patents.
Please, I'm just trying to clarify. This has nothing to do with anyone's credentials. I'm not offended and I hope you're not either.
I'm a Mechanical Engineer, soooo I also understand things...
I didn't say Nick Cappa is smarter or more qualified than Brian Spohn, I said I believe he does a better job at explaining the exact same thing that Brian is. Both of them are primed by FCA's marketing and legal departments about what they can say and how they can say it.
This is what you said, and linked an article that said it. Do you agree with THIS statement?
Not once does Brian Spohn say this. Brian Spohn says they've been able to extend the operating range of the MDS due to the ANC (Active Noise Cancellation) and TMM (Tuned Mass Modules), which neither is a part of the eTorque system, and is standard on every 2019 Ram 1500.
Brian Spohn is not the inventor of MGU's, belt driven starter generators, hybrid trucks, or start stop systems. He's an engineer. He worked with a HUGE team of engineers and collaborated with them to develop the eTorque system. Maybe it's his concept specific to Ram, but he's not God Almighty when it comes to this product or how it works. He's a team lead, and the Assistant Chief Engineer for the Electrification Propulsion Systems department. "Father of eTorque" is a nickname, not his title. And honestly, the way they bring it up in your repeatedly linked video, they sound cynical when saying it. He's probably the "Father of eTorque" because the project was crazy difficult, underfunded, and rushed through the company and he's the guy who drew the short straw on who was gonna answer to the investors on why it wasn't done this quarter to make the profits look better. I bet if you dig long enough, his name isn't on any of the eTorque patents.
Please, I'm just trying to clarify. This has nothing to do with anyone's credentials. I'm not offended and I hope you're not either.
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Thanks, I respect you and your opinion.
Our opinions differ and that is OK.
Hopefully we have given folks some interesting reading/viewing (fair point that I linked to Brian's video more than needed) to form their own opinions on.
Please enjoy your evening and thanks for the spirited discussion.
Our opinions differ and that is OK.
Hopefully we have given folks some interesting reading/viewing (fair point that I linked to Brian's video more than needed) to form their own opinions on.
Please enjoy your evening and thanks for the spirited discussion.
Electrical
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There's nothing like a heated debate between a couple of engineers 
Thank you both for re-hashing the subject to this depth. I'm still on the fence to tick that checkbox or not. Still trying to figure out if I want eTorque. Continually flip flopping back and forth. I'm now armed with a re-freshed perspective to carry-on my mental debate about this. I appreciate the posts.
Thank you both for re-hashing the subject to this depth. I'm still on the fence to tick that checkbox or not. Still trying to figure out if I want eTorque. Continually flip flopping back and forth. I'm now armed with a re-freshed perspective to carry-on my mental debate about this. I appreciate the posts.
riccnick
Ram Guru
There's nothing like a heated debate between a couple of engineers
Thank you both for re-hashing the subject to this depth. I'm still on the fence to tick that checkbox or not. Still trying to figure out if I want eTorque. Continually flip flopping back and forth. I'm now armed with a re-freshed perspective to carry-on my mental debate about this. I appreciate the posts.
I'll say this, for me, as an engineer, I just like having the new tech in the truck. Running the numbers, it just doesn't make sense, especially seeing how (for me) the MPG's aren't there. It's cool though, and I like being able to tell other people about the tech when the truck shuts off and they get all nervous, lol. Plus I can call it a Hybrid too.
Rtl Colorado
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To all the engineers
Trains are awesome!
Trains are awesome!
riccnick
Ram Guru
It takes a whole lot of Mechanical Engineers and Electrical Engineers to make the trains that the Railroad Engineers get to play with!
Also, my favorite fireman once said, "ladies love me, I put my hose on the hott stuff!"
Electrical
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I'm with ya Ric, I like the idea of all that too. I'm starting to wonder though... what's holding this system back? I mean, the paper analysis looks good right; so why isn't this thing producing more noticeable fuel economy results in the real world?
DanSkan
Active Member
It is my understanding that energy is generated by either the engine burning fuel spinning the generator or the regenerative braking by the generator slowing the engine while charging and in turn slowing the drivetrain to slow the truck down while generating electricity and sending it to the battery for storage.
The battery is relatively small and only stores a relatively small amount of energy that is used up quickly when providing power to the electric motor for additional torque (boost), usually during initial start of movement.
Energy in = energy out (minus an efficiency factor). If the battery is charged by regenerative power (slowing down) great, that is extra energy that is free and did not use the engine and fuel to generate. If the generator is used to "boost" the truck from a start and uses the stored energy from the battery thereby depleting some, most, or all the stored energy from the battery the battery must be charged again by the generation of energy by either regenerative braking or generation by using the engine burning fuel. If there is not enough regenerative braking then by default the battery must be recharged by the engine using fuel.
In a steady state condition of constant speed there would be no regenerative braking or free energy and charging so the engine would be used burning fuel to generate the energy to recharge the battery. The extra power needed from the hemi to generate the energy will decrease the mpg.
Again Energy in = energy out so if the system is programmed to mostly charge from the "free" energy generated during regenerative braking and only lightly charge from the power of the engine during slight deceleration then there still should be a slight mpg gain - if everything is working properly.
If everything is working properly and the system is programed to mostly charge by regenerative braking and doesn't draw much power from the engine burning fuel to generate energy then it should slightly increase start and stop mpg but probably not highway mpg. If it is not working properly and is drawing power off the engine while burning fuel to generate the power to recharge the battery then the mpg could be lower.
My other vehicle is a Lincoln MKZ Hybrid ( a true hybrid) and gets 40 average mpg. A nice comfortable ride and plenty of go when you combine the engine and electric motors.
The battery is relatively small and only stores a relatively small amount of energy that is used up quickly when providing power to the electric motor for additional torque (boost), usually during initial start of movement.
Energy in = energy out (minus an efficiency factor). If the battery is charged by regenerative power (slowing down) great, that is extra energy that is free and did not use the engine and fuel to generate. If the generator is used to "boost" the truck from a start and uses the stored energy from the battery thereby depleting some, most, or all the stored energy from the battery the battery must be charged again by the generation of energy by either regenerative braking or generation by using the engine burning fuel. If there is not enough regenerative braking then by default the battery must be recharged by the engine using fuel.
In a steady state condition of constant speed there would be no regenerative braking or free energy and charging so the engine would be used burning fuel to generate the energy to recharge the battery. The extra power needed from the hemi to generate the energy will decrease the mpg.
Again Energy in = energy out so if the system is programmed to mostly charge from the "free" energy generated during regenerative braking and only lightly charge from the power of the engine during slight deceleration then there still should be a slight mpg gain - if everything is working properly.
If everything is working properly and the system is programed to mostly charge by regenerative braking and doesn't draw much power from the engine burning fuel to generate energy then it should slightly increase start and stop mpg but probably not highway mpg. If it is not working properly and is drawing power off the engine while burning fuel to generate the power to recharge the battery then the mpg could be lower.
My other vehicle is a Lincoln MKZ Hybrid ( a true hybrid) and gets 40 average mpg. A nice comfortable ride and plenty of go when you combine the engine and electric motors.
