Constitutional carry

[TNRamGuy]

Sorry to hijack, we now return to the regular scheduled program "things that will not be infringed", one of the other reasons we don't need the ATF

 

[theblet]

Yea, in the 80's right here in Northern VA (now known as libtard central) the first day of deer season was an excused holiday. The girls took off just because they could since hardly any guys were in school. It was common to see someone still in camo with a bloody knife on thier belt because there wasn't time to clean up and change before getting to school on time during the rest of season. Rifle right in the gun rack parked in the student parking....

How things have changed. Heck, we even had designated student smoking areas.

Good times. Showing up to school full of duck and goose feathers and blood. Guns and shells, cigarettes, skoal, and beer cans visible in the truck. No one gave it a second thought.

 

[boogielander]

Sorry to hijack, we now return to the regular scheduled program "things that will not be infringed", one of the other reasons we don't need the ATF

stopped by an ATF today on the way to Bozeman, MT.

it's a gas station that sells Alcohol, Tobacco (cigarettes and cigars), and FIREARMS and ammos and other outdoorsy stuff. And gas too.

 

[AV8OR]

Scoop: Biden Demands Gun Control for Israelis

The Biden administration refused to sell American weapons to Israel unless it provided guarantees the guns would not be given to civilians living in the West Bank.

freebeacon.com

 

[TampaLaramie]

Scoop: Biden Demands Gun Control for Israelis

The Biden administration refused to sell American weapons to Israel unless it provided guarantees the guns would not be given to civilians living in the West Bank.

freebeacon.com

Notice how it’s the “Biden administration” and not quoting him himself. This country is being run into the ground by Obama. I really hate the MSM and the dynamic of this country right now.

 

[theblet]

Notice how it’s the “Biden administration” and not quoting him himself. This country is being run into the ground by Obama. I really hate the MSM and the dynamic of this country right now.

Yup. Barry and big mike are still very much involved

 

[StuartV]

Indiana has the same constitution carry, though most have a lifetime permit. We have the same policies on purchases with no waiting periods. Since no gun signs do NOT carry the weight of law, they are few and far between. There are very few places you can't carry and any sign posted is merely a suggestion unless it's stated in the law you cannot carry there...

Interesting. I just assumed all states allowed for the owner of private property to legally forbid firearms on their property.

Anywhere I've lived that has been the case. If the property owner puts up signage informing you that no guns are allowed, then you are forbade from bringing a gun there, by law. The only exception I have seen is where it's a case of being at work, and an employer can't tell you that you can't have a gun, even though your place of work is the employer's private property.

 

[TampaLaramie]

Interesting. I just assumed all states allowed for the owner of private property to legally forbid firearms on their property.

Anywhere I've lived that has been the case. If the property owner puts up signage informing you that no guns are allowed, then you are forbade from bringing a gun there, by law. The only exception I have seen is where it's a case of being at work, and an employer can't tell you that you can't have a gun, even though your place of work is the employer's private property.

In florida, signs saying no firearms is a civil thing. Unless it’s state law like inside a church, police station or school, i carry everywhere. That sign isn’t going to do anything for them. If I have to use it, the business could possibly file a suit against me. I’d rather deal with that alive.

 

[DEG]

Interesting. I just assumed all states allowed for the owner of private property to legally forbid firearms on their property.

Most states with CCW have not made it a criminal violation of the law for a CCW holder to carry in a business that has posted a sign prohibiting CCW. This source indicates only 17 states make it a criminal violation.

Other states either don't address it at all or just treat it as a non-criminal rule to enforce themselves civilly; normally by denying access to the business. It's not a crime to violate a business rule.

E.g. Missouri CCW law specifically says it's not a criminal infraction to carry in posted businesses, but becomes one if you refuse to leave the property when asked.

Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, or a concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense. If a second citation for a similar violation occurs within a six-month period, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed two hundred dollars and his or her permit, and, if applicable, endorsement to carry concealed firearms shall be suspended for a period of one year.

 

[Mountain Whiskey]

Interesting. I just assumed all states allowed for the owner of private property to legally forbid firearms on their property.

Anywhere I've lived that has been the case. If the property owner puts up signage informing you that no guns are allowed, then you are forbade from bringing a gun there, by law. The only exception I have seen is where it's a case of being at work, and an employer can't tell you that you can't have a gun, even though your place of work is the employer's private property.

Not the really what is being pointed out.

For example here in the once great state of Virginia, prior to our state constitution being gutted by the last liberal communist, you could carry anywhere (almost). If a sign is posted feel free to ignore it. If by an off chance that liberal commie in the kill at will zone sees your method of self defense and crime deterrent, said commie can request that you leave thier property. You should respect thier right to be a lowlife and leave. If you did not, you could be charged with trespassing.

Now things hit the fan and it is Chi-russ-istan and things just depend on the political leaning of the authoratie of the day.

 

[irishwake63]

In florida, signs saying no firearms is a civil thing. Unless it’s state law like inside a church, police station or school, i carry everywhere. That sign isn’t going to do anything for them. If I have to use it, the business could possibly file a suit against me. I’d rather deal with that alive.

there is no law preventing carrying in a church

 

[theblet]

In florida, signs saying no firearms is a civil thing. Unless it’s state law like inside a church, police station or school, i carry everywhere. That sign isn’t going to do anything for them. If I have to use it, the business could possibly file a suit against me. I’d rather deal with that alive.

The signs definitely won’t stop criminals. all they do it leave you unprotected if you follow them.

 

[DEG]

In addition to the CCW app I mentioned earlier, I also use the Posted! app to help identify anti-gun businesses before I set foot on their property. It will cost you a whopping $0.99

Few years ago I was shopping for a new Ram and when a salesman was leading me into the building to discuss a deal on a truck I liked I noticed a no firearms sign on the door and left after telling the salesman why I was leaving.

Businesses who post no firearm signs are making a poor business decision. I doubt the signs earn them a single customer, and I doubt the lack of a sign will cost them a customer. However, I know for a fact the sign will cost them customers.

 

[StuartV]

I hold or have held carry permits in FL, VA, and SC. I carry on a daily basis. I'm not suggesting anybody should not carry.

That is great that MO specifically calls that out in their code.

My concern is for the states where I have held permits (and thus, read their laws at the time), they generally say something like "a concealed weapon is a criminal violation - UNLESS you have a permit. And, with a permit, you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon except in the following places." And then they give a list of places that usually includes "private property where the owner has said you cannot carry."

So, okay, maybe the normal way it's handled is, IF the private property owner figures out you are carrying and calls the cops, they just tell you to leave, you do leave, and it's all over.

But, if somebody ever wants to make an example of you, they arrest you for carrying an illegal concealed weapon. You go to court and the prosecutor says "you were advised by signage that you were not authorized to carry a concealed weapon on that property. That means that your permit was meaningless in that case. What you did was no different than carrying concealed without a permit." Therefore, you are guilty of whatever crime the state code says for people carrying concealed without a permit.

And when that happens (in most states that don't have Constitutional Carry laws), what is your defense?

"They told me to leave and so I did" does not get you out of a charge of carrying an illegal concealed weapon if you don't have a permit. Why would it get you out of it if you were carrying in a place where your permit doesn't mean anything? Either way, you are carrying concealed without lawful authorization.

 

[DEG]

I hold or have held carry permits in FL, VA, and SC. I carry on a daily basis. I'm not suggesting anybody should not carry.

That is great that MO specifically calls that out in their code.

My concern is for the states where I have held permits (and thus, read their laws at the time), they generally say something like "a concealed weapon is a criminal violation - UNLESS you have a permit. And, with a permit, you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon except in the following places." And then they give a list of places that usually includes "private property where the owner has said you cannot carry."

So, okay, maybe the normal way it's handled is, IF the private property owner figures out you are carrying and calls the cops, they just tell you to leave, you do leave, and it's all over.

But, if somebody ever wants to make an example of you, they arrest you for carrying an illegal concealed weapon. You go to court and the prosecutor says "you were advised by signage that you were not authorized to carry a concealed weapon on that property. That means that your permit was meaningless in that case. What you did was no different than carrying concealed without a permit." Therefore, you are guilty of whatever crime the state code says for people carrying concealed without a permit.

And when that happens (in most states that don't have Constitutional Carry laws), what is your defense?

"They told me to leave and so I did" does not get you out of a charge of carrying an illegal concealed weapon if you don't have a permit. Why would it get you out of it if you were carrying in a place where your permit doesn't mean anything? Either way, you are carrying concealed without lawful authorization.

No one is suggesting anyone should illegally carry so the "what is your defense" question is irrelevant.

People need to be aware of firearm laws where they are traveling and it's very easy to do.

All 50 states allow for CCW in some form and 27 allow for permitless Constitutional carry. A few states make it very difficult to get a permit and you need to be aware of the Constitutional carry state laws because a few states only allow Constitutional carry if you are a resident of that state.

Only 17 states make it a crime, for someone authorized to carry a firearm, to carry it in a business posted with a No CCW sign and this is also very easy research. It just so happens that VA and SC are 2 of the 17; Florida is not. If you are otherwise authorized to carry a concealed firearm in Florida, Missouri, or any of the other 33 states where it's not a crime to carry in a No Gun posted business then you are not carrying an illegal concealed weapon because no law exists that make it a crime. When what you are doing is not a crime, you don't have to worry about your defense.

 

[StuartV]

No one is suggesting anyone should illegally carry so the "what is your defense" question is irrelevant.

Ummm.... if a state law says that a private property owner can forbid concealed carry on their property - and the property owner has informed you of that in the way the law requires - for example, by posting appropriate signage - then carrying a concealed weapon on their property IS "illegally carrying". Which IS what I was talking about.

 

[DEG]

Ummm.... if a state law says that a private property owner can forbid concealed carry on their property - and the property owner has informed you of that in the way the law requires - for example, by posting appropriate signage - then carrying a concealed weapon on their property IS "illegally carrying". Which IS what I was talking about.

That's not correct. You must read what the law says about the consequences of ignoring the business owners sign. If the law does not have criminal consequences, then ignoring the business owner's rule is not illegal. It's like signs that say, "no shirts, no shoes, no service".

The standard definition of "illegal" is a violation of criminal law. Many CCW laws allow for business owners to prohibit firearms in their business and provide rules for signage but it's not a criminal violation. It's nothing but a violation of the businesses rules and they can ask you to leave.

Most CCW laws contain template language that is used in most every state because the language addresses specific issues other states have encountered. The reason language has been added by legislators of many states that allow business owners to set rules that prohibit carry is to push back against some legislative efforts to treat gun owners as a protected class and make it illegal for business owners to prohibit concealed carry.

 

[irishwake63]

I hold or have held carry permits in FL, VA, and SC. I carry on a daily basis. I'm not suggesting anybody should not carry.

That is great that MO specifically calls that out in their code.

My concern is for the states where I have held permits (and thus, read their laws at the time), they generally say something like "a concealed weapon is a criminal violation - UNLESS you have a permit. And, with a permit, you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon except in the following places." And then they give a list of places that usually includes "private property where the owner has said you cannot carry."

So, okay, maybe the normal way it's handled is, IF the private property owner figures out you are carrying and calls the cops, they just tell you to leave, you do leave, and it's all over.

But, if somebody ever wants to make an example of you, they arrest you for carrying an illegal concealed weapon. You go to court and the prosecutor says "you were advised by signage that you were not authorized to carry a concealed weapon on that property. That means that your permit was meaningless in that case. What you did was no different than carrying concealed without a permit." Therefore, you are guilty of whatever crime the state code says for people carrying concealed without a permit.

And when that happens (in most states that don't have Constitutional Carry laws), what is your defense?

"They told me to leave and so I did" does not get you out of a charge of carrying an illegal concealed weapon if you don't have a permit. Why would it get you out of it if you were carrying in a place where your permit doesn't mean anything? Either way, you are carrying concealed without lawful authorization.

if an owner of a business asked you to leave because you were concealed carrying apparently you were printing or not concealing very well. I carry all the time where businesses have a sign on the door no firearms I wont give up my right to carry because someone doesnt agree with it

 

[HSKR R/T]

Ummm.... if a state law says that a private property owner can forbid concealed carry on their property - and the property owner has informed you of that in the way the law requires - for example, by posting appropriate signage - then carrying a concealed weapon on their property IS "illegally carrying". Which IS what I was talking about.

All he was saying is k ow the laws, because not every state is the same. Your initial blanket statement was not accurate for all locations