4wd won't help much, once moving, in those situations either.
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Anti spin or not?
- Thread starter golfnut
- Start date
ferraiolo1
Spends too much time on here
Exactly. If that was the case you would never see any awd (like Subarus) fall victim to it.
When I’m in our new outback it acts the same way in deep water as my ram does in 2wd
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When I’m in our new outback it acts the same way in deep water as my ram does in 2wd
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
RRSBighorn
Active Member
I had to search several states to find the truck that checked most of my option box's. I really wanted the limited slip differential. Before I bought the truck, I asked dealer about adding it on later. I can't remember exactly what their explanation was, but it was way too expensive, if I remember right, a couple of grand.
I bought the truck as it had everything else I wanted. At first I thought I made a mistake, never owned a 4- wheel drive before. On wet pavement turning into traffic can be eye opening when you lose traction, which happened shortly after I got the truck. But I have learned how and when to use 4-wheel auto. This seems to compensate for lack of my limited slip differential. I have no regrets buying this truck. That said, if I ordered one, I would get the limited slip just so I wouldn't have to think about road conditions and changing into 4-wheel auto.
HAL9001
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This is an oversimplification, but there are two primary types of traction required for vehicles to operate safely:
Despite the hype that often accompanies it, 4WD (and AWD) is not the solution to providing all types of traction and ultimate confidence where you can drive safely in all situations where the roads are slippery. Every driver must understand what 4WD does and does not do, otherwise 4WD overconfidence can and does lead to accidents.
4WD primarily provides increased forward longitudinal traction when accelerating. This is especially useful from a dead stop on slippery roads where maximum longitudinal traction is required. When in motion, it can provide additional longitudinal traction when accelerating or deaccelerating (via engine braking). However, when in motion at speed such as on a highway, this additional traction is not usually needed due to sufficient forward momentum. Yet, there are times when it can be very useful for accelerating or maintaining speed up a hill in slippery condtions for example. It accomplishes this simply by providing additional drive torque to more than the usual single tire. This significantly increases the overall friction between the driven tire(s) and the road which provides increased longitudinal traction. While very useful at specific times, 4WD does not provide anywhere near the overall required traction to safely drive in slippery conditions.
4WD does not provide much useful additional braking power. Other than providing some additional longitudinal traction during engine braking, it cannot ensure safe deacceleration in slippery conditions. This is where 4WD overconfidence leads to accidents, the confidence 4WD provides during acceleration quickly disappears when braking. On modern vehicles, antilock braking provides far more safety during braking in slippery conditions.
4WD does not provide much additional lateral traction to ordinary drivers. You can accelerate as quickly as you want with 4WD in a straight line, but during a sharp turn in slippery conditions, never expect 4WD to get you out of trouble unless you know advanced driving techniques. This is another situation where 4WD overconfidence can cause accidents. The coefficient of friction between the road and your tires is primarily what stops your vehicle from sliding laterally during turns. The lower the coefficient of friction, the more you're likely to slide out. What keeps you safer and on the road in modern vehicles is Electronic Stability Control, not 4WD. ESC uses the ABS system and yaw sensors to estimate the direction of the lateral movement and then applies the brakes to individual wheels asymmetrically far faster than any human could possibly respond in order to create torque about the vehicle's vertical axis, opposing the skid and bringing the vehicle back in line with the driver's intended direction. Additionally, the system may reduce engine power or operate the transmission to slow the vehicle down.
So, while 4WD has specific, limited advantages in slippery conditions, it does not provide the overall protection many people think it does. It's only one optional part of a complete package of safety features.
- Longitudinal traction
- Required for acceleration and deacceleration, and on grades to prevent forward/rearward slipping.
- Lateral traction
- Required to prevent sideward slipping during turns due to centripetal forces, and on grades due to gravitational forces.
Despite the hype that often accompanies it, 4WD (and AWD) is not the solution to providing all types of traction and ultimate confidence where you can drive safely in all situations where the roads are slippery. Every driver must understand what 4WD does and does not do, otherwise 4WD overconfidence can and does lead to accidents.
4WD primarily provides increased forward longitudinal traction when accelerating. This is especially useful from a dead stop on slippery roads where maximum longitudinal traction is required. When in motion, it can provide additional longitudinal traction when accelerating or deaccelerating (via engine braking). However, when in motion at speed such as on a highway, this additional traction is not usually needed due to sufficient forward momentum. Yet, there are times when it can be very useful for accelerating or maintaining speed up a hill in slippery condtions for example. It accomplishes this simply by providing additional drive torque to more than the usual single tire. This significantly increases the overall friction between the driven tire(s) and the road which provides increased longitudinal traction. While very useful at specific times, 4WD does not provide anywhere near the overall required traction to safely drive in slippery conditions.
4WD does not provide much useful additional braking power. Other than providing some additional longitudinal traction during engine braking, it cannot ensure safe deacceleration in slippery conditions. This is where 4WD overconfidence leads to accidents, the confidence 4WD provides during acceleration quickly disappears when braking. On modern vehicles, antilock braking provides far more safety during braking in slippery conditions.
4WD does not provide much additional lateral traction to ordinary drivers. You can accelerate as quickly as you want with 4WD in a straight line, but during a sharp turn in slippery conditions, never expect 4WD to get you out of trouble unless you know advanced driving techniques. This is another situation where 4WD overconfidence can cause accidents. The coefficient of friction between the road and your tires is primarily what stops your vehicle from sliding laterally during turns. The lower the coefficient of friction, the more you're likely to slide out. What keeps you safer and on the road in modern vehicles is Electronic Stability Control, not 4WD. ESC uses the ABS system and yaw sensors to estimate the direction of the lateral movement and then applies the brakes to individual wheels asymmetrically far faster than any human could possibly respond in order to create torque about the vehicle's vertical axis, opposing the skid and bringing the vehicle back in line with the driver's intended direction. Additionally, the system may reduce engine power or operate the transmission to slow the vehicle down.
So, while 4WD has specific, limited advantages in slippery conditions, it does not provide the overall protection many people think it does. It's only one optional part of a complete package of safety features.
" What keeps you safer and on the road in modern vehicles is Electronic Stability Control, not 4WD" - I think you miss a point, that in 4wd there is power to the steering wheels, which can help recover, at speed on the highway, if vehicle looses control. ESC is a plus, but so is 4WD, in the 'highway speed loss of control' situation.
HAL9001
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That is a valid point. I would always suggest using 4WD on the highway or any roads when snow or ice is present.
However, ESC is safer because it does not rely on driving skills to get ordinary drivers out of trouble whereas using 4WD to recover from a loss of lateral traction in a skid requires sufficient driving skills and techniques, something not all drivers have. Many accidents could have been avoided if drivers had such skills, reflexes, and experience under pressure, but as we all know, many simply don't. If your teenager is driving or your octagenarian mother, then ESC is more likely to help them in a skid than quick reflexes and driving skills using 4WD.
My point was that 4WD is not in and of itself something every driver should fully rely on for safe driving in slippery conditions, it's part of an overall package of safety features and its benefits and limitations should be well understood.
arod412
Ram Guru
Well maybe I'm on the older side here, but I had both anti slip and elocker. I'm about the elocker.
For me, I like to feel the truck and how it's behaving. My current truck has elocker on it, and I like to be able to control when I need it and when I don't. Some folks like to just get in and drive and not worry about it. That's where anti slip works for them.
Obviously being careful and not being stupid, I like to know when I can turn it on or off. If I don't know the weather situation, or if it gets bad, I'm going to jump into auto 4wd, turn on the elocker, and Forget it, but I feel learning how it handles is so much more important to me.
2022 Ram Big Horn Back Country
2016 Dodge Charger scat pack
2021 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara
For me, I like to feel the truck and how it's behaving. My current truck has elocker on it, and I like to be able to control when I need it and when I don't. Some folks like to just get in and drive and not worry about it. That's where anti slip works for them.
Obviously being careful and not being stupid, I like to know when I can turn it on or off. If I don't know the weather situation, or if it gets bad, I'm going to jump into auto 4wd, turn on the elocker, and Forget it, but I feel learning how it handles is so much more important to me.
2022 Ram Big Horn Back Country
2016 Dodge Charger scat pack
2021 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara
Ram uses the same Borg Warner EMOD transfer case for models with A4WD as Ford does on all Lariat+ trims (and has since 2011). There is therefore a good sample size and I'd previously researched this in detail.
www.borgwarner.com
TL;DR:
Run around in A4WD as often as you'd like. Dry roads, wet, snow, whatever. I ran mine that way about 90% of 60k miles, no issues. MPG probably takes a .5-1mpg hit, and theoretically things like front hubs or cv shafts may have slightly accelerated wear (but without a double blind study or parallel universe cant say for sure or by how much).
Details:
The difference between this Tcase and that of the case on the tradesman or the standard case on Rebel is that trucks with A4WD use a vicious clutch in the case, where the others use a chain. The clutch allows the case to vary the amount of lock between front and rear, which is what enables some slip in turns and thus enables AWD.
A4WD also engages the front wheel hubs, so that the diff spins as the front wheels do. However delta in front vs rear diff spinning are absorbed by the vicious clutch in the tcase.
When you switch to 4Hi these cases apply full pressure to the clutch plates so that no slip is allowed. (Theoretically and has been reported by some Ram users, some slip can still happen in 4Hi, though this was thought to be an early software issue, as it is not reported in the Fords or later Rams). 4Lo does the same, but adds gear reduction too.
In 2WD mode, the tcase clutch is 100& disengaged, *AND* the front hubs are disengaged, so that the front differential is not turning as the front wheels turn (this is what saves some MPG, as drag is reduced). In Fords this hub engagement is at the wheel end, but in Rams I *think* it's inboard at the diff - that part I'm not sure.
So in practice, the clutch type transfer case is no different than the clutch type center differentials used on AWD cars and SUVs, and obviously they are full time awd.
BorgWarner’s New Electro-Mechanical On-Demand Transfer Case Powers 2019 Ram 1500 4x4 Pickup Trucks - BorgWarner
Read and download our latest press releases.
www.borgwarner.com
TL;DR:
Run around in A4WD as often as you'd like. Dry roads, wet, snow, whatever. I ran mine that way about 90% of 60k miles, no issues. MPG probably takes a .5-1mpg hit, and theoretically things like front hubs or cv shafts may have slightly accelerated wear (but without a double blind study or parallel universe cant say for sure or by how much).
Details:
The difference between this Tcase and that of the case on the tradesman or the standard case on Rebel is that trucks with A4WD use a vicious clutch in the case, where the others use a chain. The clutch allows the case to vary the amount of lock between front and rear, which is what enables some slip in turns and thus enables AWD.
A4WD also engages the front wheel hubs, so that the diff spins as the front wheels do. However delta in front vs rear diff spinning are absorbed by the vicious clutch in the tcase.
When you switch to 4Hi these cases apply full pressure to the clutch plates so that no slip is allowed. (Theoretically and has been reported by some Ram users, some slip can still happen in 4Hi, though this was thought to be an early software issue, as it is not reported in the Fords or later Rams). 4Lo does the same, but adds gear reduction too.
In 2WD mode, the tcase clutch is 100& disengaged, *AND* the front hubs are disengaged, so that the front differential is not turning as the front wheels turn (this is what saves some MPG, as drag is reduced). In Fords this hub engagement is at the wheel end, but in Rams I *think* it's inboard at the diff - that part I'm not sure.
So in practice, the clutch type transfer case is no different than the clutch type center differentials used on AWD cars and SUVs, and obviously they are full time awd.
Problem with the e-locker is is disengages above 25mph, where as the limited slip is always there to help.
If the vehicle loses control and the front wheels are spinning/sliding, adding torque to those wheels is counterproductive.
arod412
Ram Guru
Correct. But if your slipping and sliding past 25mpg...your in for a big hurt anyway, even if you anti slip. By then, both tires are spinning the same way, but sliding out of control at speeds over 25mpg.
2022 Ram Big Horn Back Country
2016 Dodge Charger scat pack
2021 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara
Only out of control if you don't know how to control it. There are many times where I wished the locker would still be engaged over 25mph, so I could keep the slide going.
arod412
Ram Guru
And you can also be sliding in 4wd, if you don't know what your doing.
Ice doesn't care what system you have in place.
2022 Ram Big Horn Back Country
2016 Dodge Charger scat pack
2021 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara
Yeah I'm with ya there, I've had the rear end slip out thousands of times going over 25 mph, lots of times over 55 mph (on a 800 mile day trip from College Station to Nashville last February during the ice and snow storms). Just counter steer and keep it going steady, it's really not difficult once you learn how to do it. I also did that entire 800 miles in 2wd without any issue (well pulling out of a gas station I did need 4x4 once to get up a hill so it was nice to have there), any time I'd get any slight sliding happen I would counter steer and keep it going. No issues, good tires and some decent weight certainly helped too but I do the same thing empty as well.
I can't imagine how much gas I would have used going 800 miles in 4wd that day, already went through enough as it was. That day was hell but like others have mentioned here I'm glad I fooled around a lot in my youth, it taught me how to control the vehicle very well.
My personal preference is to have the antispin, in fact all 4 rams I've had have had them and not by coincidence. Also have always ran bfg ko2 all terrains or falken at3 all terrains, both have been great tires in the snow and ice for me.
Preaching to the choir
