ESS (Electronic Start Stop) Issues

[H2OMAN]

But by that logic UPS and FedEx must be rebuilding their engines every year on their delivery trucks. Because I know for a fact that they shut their engines off every time they make a delivery and in residential delivery that could be hundred of times a day.

Yep those trucks go through motors.

 

[Jesusisgod]

Not doubtful. On a well maintained engine, almost exclusively engine wear happens at startup. Pretend it doesn't if you please.

i saw a study that uses radioactive tracer testing. which measures down to the micro gram of radioactive material. i believe they used radioactive piston rings. it showed the majority of wear happens between startup and when the engine reaches 160f. freedomworx on you tube did a video on this. in the video you can see the graphs, it sure looks like oil starvation is not the issue. since there is still wear happing minutes into the tests. i cant imagine an engine is starved of oil 5-10 minutes into run time.

so yes wear happens at start up but it should be said wear happens at startup and continues until the engine reaches operating temp. with that info id say that no extra wear to the engine occurs because the engine does not drop below operating temps in that amount of time. do i trust it? no i put one of that auto stop eliminators on my truck lol.

skip to 29 minutes

 

[H2OMAN]

That's interesting. I'll watch it this weekend. What did they say about lifters?

 

[Jesusisgod]

That's interesting. I'll watch it this weekend. What did they say about lifters?

i believe he addresses that under the statement of no one ever says yup our bearings are fried lets rebuild this engine, that its almost always the rings that cause people to have to rebuild one. i don't think he ever brings up lifters. I only have bits of info from the studies because i didn't buy them.

I'm not exactly sold on it being an oil issue being what causes our lifter problems. chevy has lifter issues to. I think its a low quality parts issue coupled with low oil pressure at idle. though that one channel on you tube. the ram high milage. that dude made it to 250k with no lifter problems( he hasnt posted any videos in almost a year now). His idle hours was super high, he did 10k oil changes, and towed constantly.


So my minds kinda stuck on if the lifters are gonna go they are going to because they was bad qc parts to begin with.

 

[H2OMAN]

i believe he addresses that under the statement of no one ever says yup our bearings are fried lets rebuild this engine, that its almost always the rings that cause people to have to rebuild one. i don't think he ever brings up lifters. I only have bits of info from the studies because i didn't buy them.

I'm not exactly sold on it being an oil issue being what causes our lifter problems. chevy has lifter issues to. I think its a low quality parts issue coupled with low oil pressure at idle. though that one channel on you tube. the ram high milage. that dude made it to 250k with no lifter problems( he hasnt posted any videos in almost a year now). His idle hours was super high, he did 10k oil changes, and towed constantly.


So my minds kinda stuck on if the lifters are gonna go they are going to because they was bad qc parts to begin with.

Good analysis.

 

[vincentw56]

i saw a study that uses radioactive tracer testing. which measures down to the micro gram of radioactive material. i believe they used radioactive piston rings. it showed the majority of wear happens between startup and when the engine reaches 160f. freedomworx on you tube did a video on this. in the video you can see the graphs, it sure looks like oil starvation is not the issue. since there is still wear happing minutes into the tests. i cant imagine an engine is starved of oil 5-10 minutes into run time.

so yes wear happens at start up but it should be said wear happens at startup and continues until the engine reaches operating temp. with that info id say that no extra wear to the engine occurs because the engine does not drop below operating temps in that amount of time. do i trust it? no i put one of that auto stop eliminators on my truck lol.

skip to 29 minutes

That's why I think it's really doubtful. The confusion is between cold starts and warm starts. There's no way enough oil has drained away enough in the time the engine is stopped at a stop light.

 

[Snekpete]

Freedom Worx has some good videos, quite interesting. I also enjoyed the CAI vid.

He makes clear that there are two types of engine wear, bearing wear and ring/cylinder wear. As he states, I've never had a bearing problem on any new car that I've bought, and he's right, I could probably go from 5,000 to 7,500 or 10,000 mile oil changes with no measurable effect on bearing or ring wear. But I only drive each vehicle, I have two, about 5,000 miles a year so I'll stick with once yearly oil changes.

Most ring wear occurs, apparently, when the engine is cold. MDS and ESS both cause the rings and cylinders to cool. MDS is probably the worst. I would expect a small amount of ring/cylinder wear from both with no effect on the bearings. Enough to lose sleep over? No, the engine will still last hundreds of thousands of miles. Something else will break long before a bearing or compression problem.

Camshaft wear? Who knows, I'll lump it in with bearing wear, but I've never had a cam lobe fail on any vehicle, even on the two Lycoming airplane motors that I've had, the cams were not an issue.

Are CAIs worth it? A resounding no, the same effect could be had by replacing the stock air filter with a less restrictive one that let's through more dirt. I watched guys cut the screen out of the intake on induction systems thinking that the screen restricted airflow. The screen actually increases airflow by reducing turbulence. A dirty air filter filters more dirt than a clean one? Fine, I don't change them very often anyway. I just bought new air filters and fuel filters for my Fords. Turns out the Mustang doesn't even have an inline fuel filter, just a screen mesh inside the tank.

I still believe that clean, fresh oil is the best insurance against premature engine failure. Freedom Worx acknowledged that 0W-10 oil is only used for meeting CAFE standards.

 

[Jesusisgod]

Freedom Worx has some good videos, quite interesting. I also enjoyed the CAI vid.

He makes clear that there are two types of engine wear, bearing wear and ring/cylinder wear. As he states, I've never had a bearing problem on any new car that I've bought, and he's right, I could probably go from 5,000 to 7,500 or 10,000 mile oil changes with no measurable effect on bearing or ring wear. But I only drive each vehicle, I have two, about 5,000 miles a year so I'll stick with once yearly oil changes.

Most ring wear occurs, apparently, when the engine is cold. MDS and ESS both cause the rings and cylinders to cool. MDS is probably the worst. I would expect a small amount of ring/cylinder wear from both with no effect on the bearings. Enough to lose sleep over? No, the engine will still last hundreds of thousands of miles. Something else will break long before a bearing or compression problem.

Camshaft wear? Who knows, I'll lump it in with bearing wear, but I've never had a cam lobe fail on any vehicle, even on the two Lycoming airplane motors that I've had, the cams were not an issue.

Are CAIs worth it? A resounding no, the same effect could be had by replacing the stock air filter with a less restrictive one that let's through more dirt. I watched guys cut the screen out of the intake on induction systems thinking that the screen restricted airflow. The screen actually increases airflow by reducing turbulence. A dirty air filter filters more dirt than a clean one? Fine, I don't change them very often anyway. I just bought new air filters and fuel filters for my Fords. Turns out the Mustang doesn't even have an inline fuel filter, just a screen mesh inside the tank.

I still believe that clean, fresh oil is the best insurance against premature engine failure. Freedom Worx acknowledged that 0W-10 oil is only used for meeting CAFE standards.

id say both are not inactive long enough to allow anything to cool lower then operating temp. Id argue the opposite for ess, I've actually noticed when i allow the ess to work, the engine temps go up. which makes since sure combustion isn't taking place but air also isn't flowing through the radiator, or over the engine, so the coolant i think is setting against the cylinder walls acts as an insulator instead of a coolant for the brief period it isn't moving. some vehicles will run the fan after the engine is shut off, because the temps do rise for a period of time.

for mds i could probably agree the cylinders don't have any combustion so temps may drop a degree or 2. idk if mds really would cause any added wear to the rings though. if im not mistaken oil still flows to the rings when it activates. i could be completely wrong on that though.

I don't know how often mds is really even active. i don't have a muffler on my truck so its pretty loud. i try to listen but i cant ever really tell. seems like the only time i can get it to come on is going down hill and not hitting the throttle. i know there is the eco thing we can turn on but I've been told just because that's on doesn't mean mds is active, just means you're driving economically. no idea if that's true or not.

 

[mikeru82]

id say both are not inactive long enough to allow anything to cool lower then operating temp. Id argue the opposite for ess, I've actually noticed when i allow the ess to work, the engine temps go up. which makes since sure combustion isn't taking place but air also isn't flowing through the radiator, or over the engine, so the coolant i think is setting against the cylinder walls acts as an insulator instead of a coolant for the brief period it isn't moving. some vehicles will run the fan after the engine is shut off, because the temps do rise for a period of time.

It's not just about temps. It's also about oil flow. When the engine is running the oil is flowing and creating oil pressure. Which protects bearings from wear. When the engine shuts off there is residual oil on these bearing surfaces. This serves to "mostly" prevent wear, but even when you restart a warm engine there can be micro wear until oil flow and pressure resumes. A cold engine is, well, cold. Cold oil doesn't flow as well it does at operating temperature, and it takes longer for pressure to build up. But a cold engine also has minimal oil residue on the bearings because most of the oil has drained back into the sump. This is where most wear occurs in a well running engine.

for mds i could probably agree the cylinders don't have any combustion so temps may drop a degree or 2. idk if mds really would cause any added wear to the rings though. if im not mistaken oil still flows to the rings when it activates. i could be completely wrong on that though.

The temps in the cylinders which shut down are more than a couple degrees cooler, but how much cooler depends on how long MDS is active. I've seen thermal images of an MDS engine with four cylinders deactivated but I forget just how much of a difference there is.

There is actually more oil flow to the lifters during MDS operation than during normal operating. This is because MDS uses high pressure oil to deactivate each lifter during MDS operation. This high pressure oil bathes the lifter. So the theory that MDS is what causes lifter/cam failures is incorrect. That that's an argument for another thread and another day.

I don't know how often mds is really even active. i don't have a muffler on my truck so its pretty loud. i try to listen but i cant ever really tell. seems like the only time i can get it to come on is going down hill and not hitting the throttle. i know there is the eco thing we can turn on but I've been told just because that's on doesn't mean mds is active, just means you're driving economically. no idea if that's true or not.

It's surprising to me that you can't hear MDS on an open exhaust. I could hear it with the stock muffler, and since our 2020 Limited has an upgraded exhaust it's even more obvious to me. I disable MDS every time I drive the truck but the wife just lets it do its thing. So it bugs me every time she drives lol.

While it was true on 4th gens that the eco light just meant you're driving economically, on 5th gens the eco light means MDS is active. So you can watch that to see whether MDS is coming on or not if you can't tell by the exhaust sounds.

 

[Jesusisgod]

It's not just about temps. It's also about oil flow. When the engine is running the oil is flowing and creating oil pressure. Which protects bearings from wear. When the engine shuts off there is residual oil on these bearing surfaces. This serves to "mostly" prevent wear, but even when you restart a warm engine there can be micro wear until oil flow and pressure resumes. A cold engine is, well, cold. Cold oil doesn't flow as well it does at operating temperature, and it takes longer for pressure to build up. But a cold engine also has minimal oil residue on the bearings because most of the oil has drained back into the sump. This is where most wear occurs in a well running engine.


The temps in the cylinders which shut down are more than a couple degrees cooler, but how much cooler depends on how long MDS is active. I've seen thermal images of an MDS engine with four cylinders deactivated but I forget just how much of a difference there is.

There is actually more oil flow to the lifters during MDS operation than during normal operating. This is because MDS uses high pressure oil to deactivate each lifter during MDS operation. This high pressure oil bathes the lifter. So the theory that MDS is what causes lifter/cam failures is incorrect. That that's an argument for another thread and another day.


It's surprising to me that you can't hear MDS on an open exhaust. I could hear it with the stock muffler, and since our 2020 Limited has an upgraded exhaust it's even more obvious to me. I disable MDS every time I drive the truck but the wife just lets it do its thing. So it bugs me every time she drives lol.

While it was true on 4th gens that the eco light just meant you're driving economically, on 5th gens the eco light means MDS is active. So you can watch that to see whether MDS is coming on or not if you can't tell by the exhaust sounds.

My main point was that ess the temps don't really drop they go up. the wear isn't gonna be no wear near as prolonged as it would from cold start to reaching operational temp. Seconds compared to minutes in some cases.

If you watched his video im pretty sure he said it came down to they have no idea why wear continues until the temps of the engine reach 160. Just that it does.

A few degrees is hyperbole. I know that an area with no fire is gonna be cooler then one with fire .

If eco mode is true then mds is super rare when I drive. Usually only a few seconds into coasting down hill,or letting off the gas at highway speed.

 

[mikeru82]

My main point was that ess the temps don't really drop they go up. the wear isn't gonna be no wear near as prolonged as it would from cold start to reaching operational temp. Seconds compared to minutes in some cases.

I get it, you're trying to make a point that the engine temps go up for a short time after shut down. That's cool, I'm not disputing or agreeing with that. I think we're violently agreeing here as far as wear goes though lol.

If you watched his video im pretty sure he said it came down to they have no idea why wear continues until the temps of the engine reach 160. Just that it does.

I didn't watch the video. I tend to avoid clicking on links posted by people I don't know. Nothing against you or anyone else here.

A few degrees is hyperbole. I know that an area with no fire is gonna be cooler then one with fire .

People often misuse the that word. Hyperbole means to use extravagant exaggeration (like "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse"). Nothing I said could be accurately described as hyperbole. It might be more accurate to say I was splitting hairs, but I don't think I was even doing that.

If eco mode is true then mds is super rare when I drive. Usually only a few seconds into coasting down hill,or letting off the gas at highway speed.

Back when I would let MDS do its thing it would run maybe 20% on my commute to work, and possibly double that on my drive home. That's because my 16 mile (22 to 25 minute) commute to work was slightly uphill overall. But it is hilly terrain and had lots of ups and downs. What bothered me was how often it turned on and off with each hill. After I upgraded the exhaust it was so much more noticeable. So I developed the habit of disabling it every time I shift into D.

 

[Jesusisgod]

I get it, you're trying to make a point that the engine temps go up for a short time after shut down. That's cool, I'm not disputing or agreeing with that. I think we're violently agreeing here as far as wear goes though lol.


I didn't watch the video. I tend to avoid clicking on links posted by people I don't know. Nothing against you or anyone else here.


People often misuse the that word. Hyperbole means to use extravagant exaggeration (like "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse"). Nothing I said could be accurately described as hyperbole. It might be more accurate to say I was splitting hairs, but I don't think I was even doing that.


Back when I would let MDS do its thing it would run maybe 20% on my commute to work, and possibly double that on my drive home. That's because my 16 mile (22 to 25 minute) commute to work was slightly uphill overall. But it is hilly terrain and had lots of ups and downs. What bothered me was how often it turned on and off with each hill. After I upgraded the exhaust it was so much more noticeable. So I developed the habit of disabling it every time I shift into D.

What I said was hyperbole. An extremely low exaggeration 1 or 2 degrees when in reality the temps drop by like like 100 degrees on the face of the piston for instance. Nothing you said was hyperbole. Woulda helped if I replied with each paragraph like you did. I honestly don't care that much lol.

Id just swap the parts if it turned on 20% of my driving. I also live in the hills but it's up and down. I'm pretty heavy on the throttle to.

 

[mikeru82]

What I said was hyperbole. An extremely low exaggeration 1 or 2 degrees when in reality the temps drop by like like 100 degrees on the face of the piston for instance. Nothing you said was hyperbole. Woulda helped if I replied with each paragraph like you did. I honestly don't care that much lol.

Id just swap the parts if it turned on 20% of my driving. I also live in the hills but it's up and down. I'm pretty heavy on the throttle to.

Extremely low exaggeration? That would be to trivialize or downplay. You could even say under exaggeration. Still not hyperbole though.
Sorry, I grew up with four sisters who all went on to become school teachers. Some of that was bound to rub off.

It has nothing to do with how much I care. It's just easier to reply to each paragraph. It's not like it takes much more effort. You don't seem to appreciate that so I'm replying your way.

Swap what parts? You mean cam and lifters? It'd be nice but it's much easier and cheaper to disable it with the steering wheel buttons. It's second nature, like putting on my seat belt. Maybe if I ever need to do any cam or lifter work. But it's not worth it to me to proactively do that.

 

[Jesusisgod]

Extremely low exaggeration? That would be to trivialize or downplay. You could even say under exaggeration. Still not hyperbole though.
Sorry, I grew up with four sisters who all went on to become school teachers. Some of that was bound to rub off.

It has nothing to do with how much I care. It's just easier to reply to each paragraph. It's not like it takes much more effort. You don't seem to appreciate that so I'm replying your way.

Swap what parts? You mean cam and lifters? It'd be nice but it's much easier and cheaper to disable it with the steering wheel buttons. It's second nature, like putting on my seat belt. Maybe if I ever need to do any cam or lifter work. But it's not worth it to me to proactively do that.

Hyperbole is not limited to exaggerating something beyond its actual size, strength, or importance; it can also involve exaggerating less than reality. In both cases, the key feature is intentional distortion for emphasis or effect, not literal accuracy.
One common form of hyperbole is overstatement, which exaggerates something to a greater degree than it truly is. Examples include phrases like “I waited forever” or “this weighs a ton.” These are not meant to be taken literally but are used to communicate strong feeling or emphasis.
Another form of hyperbole is understatement, where something significant is deliberately minimized. Saying “it’s just a scratch” when the injury is serious, or “the test was a little hard” when it was extremely difficult, are examples of this. The impact comes from the contrast between the words used and the reality they describe.
Understatement still qualifies as hyperbole because it is an intentional deviation from reality, and the listener is expected to recognize that distortion. Often, understatement adds irony, humility, or dry emphasis rather than dramatic flair.
A related rhetorical device is litotes, which is a specific type of understatement that uses negation to make a point, such as saying “not bad” to mean very good or “no small task” to mean very difficult. Together, these forms show that hyperbole includes both exaggerating upward and exaggerating downward.

So saying dropping by 1 or 2 degrees that would qualify as hyperbole, specifically understatement, because you’re deliberately minimizing the reality of what happened. Hyperbole isn’t just about making something sound bigger or more dramatic than it is; it can also involve making something sound smaller, weaker, or less significant than it actually is, for effect.

Context and tone are what decide whether your statement is playful hyperbole or dismissive trivialization.

I am downplaying the temperature drop to make a point or simplify the explanation, not to dismiss the importance of cylinder wear or engine function. That’s classic understatement used as hyperbole—it’s an approximation for effect.
It wouldn’t be trivializing unless you were implying, “it doesn’t matter at all if MDS happens, so wear isn’t an issue,” which you’re not doing—you’re just speculating on minor cooling.

 

[mikeru82]

Hyperbole is not limited to exaggerating something beyond its actual size, strength, or importance; it can also involve exaggerating less than reality. In both cases, the key feature is intentional distortion for emphasis or effect, not literal accuracy.
One common form of hyperbole is overstatement, which exaggerates something to a greater degree than it truly is. Examples include phrases like “I waited forever” or “this weighs a ton.” These are not meant to be taken literally but are used to communicate strong feeling or emphasis.
Another form of hyperbole is understatement, where something significant is deliberately minimized. Saying “it’s just a scratch” when the injury is serious, or “the test was a little hard” when it was extremely difficult, are examples of this. The impact comes from the contrast between the words used and the reality they describe.
Understatement still qualifies as hyperbole because it is an intentional deviation from reality, and the listener is expected to recognize that distortion. Often, understatement adds irony, humility, or dry emphasis rather than dramatic flair.
A related rhetorical device is litotes, which is a specific type of understatement that uses negation to make a point, such as saying “not bad” to mean very good or “no small task” to mean very difficult. Together, these forms show that hyperbole includes both exaggerating upward and exaggerating downward.

So saying dropping by 1 or 2 degrees that would qualify as hyperbole, specifically understatement, because you’re deliberately minimizing the reality of what happened. Hyperbole isn’t just about making something sound bigger or more dramatic than it is; it can also involve making something sound smaller, weaker, or less significant than it actually is, for effect.

Context and tone are what decide whether your statement is playful hyperbole or dismissive trivialization.

I am downplaying the temperature drop to make a point or simplify the explanation, not to dismiss the importance of cylinder wear or engine function. That’s classic understatement used as hyperbole—it’s an approximation for effect.
It wouldn’t be trivializing unless you were implying, “it doesn’t matter at all if MDS happens, so wear isn’t an issue,” which you’re not doing—you’re just speculating on minor cooling.

Now you're just trying to save face by making $hit up. Your original statement was in no way meant to be an "under exaggeration" when taken in context.

Even if you did (you didn't) You can't just make up your own definitions. Hyperbole is always an overstatement. Feel free to look it up yourself. Your examples are actually called understatements. Which are the opposite of hyperbole.

​

 

[Jesusisgod]

Now you're just trying to save face by making $hit up. Your original statement was in no way meant to be an "under exaggeration" when taken in context.

Even if you did (you didn't) You can't just make up your own definitions. Hyperbole is always an overstatement. Feel free to look it up yourself. Your examples are actually called understatements. Which are the opposite of hyperbole.

​

Careful your pride is showing.

You're correct I am incorrect. Better?