5thGenRams Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

What Is Ram’s Upcoming Range Electric Paradigm Breaker (REPB) Pickup?

go-ram

Ram Guru
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Messages
716
Reaction score
643
Ram’s idea here is interesting in that it results in a vehicle with more torque, similar range, far less expensive fill-ups, and potentially far less maintenance (depending on battery lifetime) than you have now.

Stellantis is targeting 500 miles range right now. Let’s say that’s 250 towing if nothing changes. But you have an onboard generator that can extend that towing range on much less fuel than our current trucks. So the new EV will almost certainly match or beat your unloaded range…and then likely fill up (the small gas tank) for a lot less money than you’re spending at the pump. Granted, charging the thing (if available) for full range would still take 25 minutes…there’s no denying that. So on long road trips, especially towing, you’d be more likely to exercise the generator a lot (and see less of an advantage in economy as a result). In town, charging a bit at night, you’d need to use Sta-bil…you’d almost never need to add fuel.

Why haven’t they offered this before? Probably because it’s just easier, less risky, and profitable enough to iterate on tried and true formulas.

Most of this tech is 10+ years old, with the exception of rapidly-improving batteries. Just last week, I read about a breakthrough in cathodes that makes lithium-sulphur batteries realistic (3x the capacity of lithium-ion, faster charging, capable of 4K+ charges, more eco-friendly).

The claim that EVs are dirtier over their lifetime has been proven false in multiple international studies. However, they ARE (almost) always less environmentally friendly to manufacture, particularly due to the manufacturing of (most) batteries. The break-even point between the carbon impact of EVs and ICE-powered vehicles can vary between a year in the Nordics (where most energy is renewable) to 10 years in China (where it is not). Inn the US, it could take 2+ years for an EV to balance out with an ICE-powered vehicle. Over its lifetime, an EV can be much “greener”. Still, as you point out, the recyclability of batteries (and of vehicles in general) needs to be improved.

I’m bullish on this tech, but I’m going to enjoy my current truck until an automaker nails the EV / PHEV / REPB formula.
.
Very well said, SpeedyV.
.
I, too, am very interested in Ram's upcoming half-ton "REV" (formerly "REPB"). For my use-case, a properly-executed gas-electric hybrid fits well. I recognize for many, many truck owners, nothing EV-related that's available today fits their use-cases, and that's fine - to each their own, based on individual preferences and individual use-cases the key is choosing the right tool for a given job. No good comes from any of us hating the other's needs & preferences, everyone is free to choose the type that best suits them, and in a certain percentage of use-cases, having reasonable plug-in battery range for in-town usage, with the gasoline-powered range extender, is a viable, desirable compromise between BEV-only and pure gas/diesel power.
.
With any type of EV, be it full BEV or regular gas-electric hybrid, or plug-in hybrid, the main problem on multiple levels is the battery...building the battery and recycling it are, so far, both very significant environmentally-unfriendly events. The larger the battery, the greater environmental damage, and the longer the environmental break-even (vehicles like the Hummer EV1 probably will never reach a positive environmental payback). Because of that, I'm thinking the sweet spot would be if the Ram REV has 30-50 mile plug-in BEV range, with gasoline-powered generator and fuel tank sized to make a total 500-mile range possible, combined battery and generator modes.
.
One can find seemingly credible studies that state very quick environmental-breakeven points for BEVs, and other studies that claim long, or never, environmental breakeven for BEVs. Of course, the truth lies somewhere between those extreme positions. One thing I have a problem with in all these studies, is that so far I have yet to see one that fully & accurately accounts for the end-of-life environmental costs of the BEV batteries. As yet, BEV batteries, even those that are repurposed for a time as home energy storage for solar-photovoltaic systems, are still largely environmental disasters not just for production, but for end-of-life recycling. So far, no place has an economically-sustainable and environmentally-friendly way to deal with Li-ion batteries. They are either stockpiling them or incinerating them, with extremely low rates of recapture of materials.
.
All this to say, I hope Ram has truly done their homework on the REV and sizes the traction battery and the engine-genertator intelligently for good performance, and wisely for the environment.
.
 

go-ram

Ram Guru
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Messages
716
Reaction score
643
Here are some facts (?) presented by Lawrence Livermore labs. This site: Flowcharts

This is what it looks like:

View attachment 128420

As you can see, of the 36.6 Quads of electricity produced in the US in 2021, 9.47 came from coal. Let's call that 25%.
If you're concerned about CO2 (<- I won't ask why), then you're concerned about Natural Gas use. For electricity, it's 11.6 or almost 1/3.

Together, Coal and Natural Gas account for 55% of total US electricity generation. (Petroleum gives 0.2 Quads towards electricity. That's 1/2 of 1 percent. We'll ignore that.)

Of that total, 0.02 Quads are currently used for Transportation. (This includes ALL transportation: private autos, ships, planes, trains...everything.)

So, electricity. About 2/3s of the energy used to make electricity gets wasted as heat (23.7 out of 36.6). 12.9 of 36.6 is actual electricity.

0.02 of the total amount of energy used to produce electricity is currently used in transportation. (Zero decimal zero two Quads. Or, 1/10th of the amount of petroleum energy that goes to making electricity is electricity used to replace petroleum use in transportation.)

Electricity currently provides 0.07% of our transportation needs. In other words, we'd need to increase USEFUL electrical production by 24.28 Quads (Petroleum input is 24.3) to replace petroleum.

That would mean (due to the 1/3 useful, 2/3 wasted) an increase in electrical power production of almost 75 Quads. TOTAL current use is 97 Quads.

In order to transition to electrical transportation, we'd almost need to double our non-petroleum power sources. Let's toss a figure up there to account for ships, trains, and planes. Let's say they use 1/2. (Make up a number. I'm going with 1/2.)

That means an increase of about 40 Quads (75 cut very roughly in half) into electrical production.

And, if you're going to get rid of Coal and Natural Gas (55% of our electrical energy sources), that means you're going to need current (36.6) plus 1/2 transportion (about 40) or roughly 75 Quads total...from non-coal sources.

To make that you're going to need to increase....what?

Hydro is tapped out. If it can be dammed, it has been dammed.
Biomass is a mess. Seriously. A nationwide "old vegetable and poo" collection?
Geothermal is done. Old Faithful is about the only thing left to tap.
Solar creates huge ecological messes where it's mined. Ignoring that, if you look at the current effiiciency of solar, even covering the entire state of Nevada in solar panels would not meet our current base load electrical needs.

Nuclear is it. Remind me again of the last time a nuclear license was issued in the US?


Now, let's wave a magic wand and say "The Government demands you drive electric cars. So it will be done..." They need batteries.
Here's an interesting take on batteries:

Everything has embedded energy cost!

What is a battery?' I think Tesla said it best when they called it an Energy Storage System. That's important.

They do not make electricity – they store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid.

Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, do you see?

Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.

There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.

Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium. The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.

All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old, ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery's metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.

In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle single-use ones properly.

But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive embedded costs.

Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject.

In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the embedded costs in the can of beans.

The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas.

Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost. Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon. Then it's back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.

A typical EV battery weighs one thousand pounds, about the size of a travel trunk. It contains twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside are over 6,000 individual lithium-ion cells.

It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each EV auto battery, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth's crust for just one battery."

Sixty-eight percent of the world's cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?"

I'd like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being 'green,' but it is not! This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.

The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicone dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.

Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades. Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.


There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent. "Going Green" may sound like the Utopian ideal and are easily espoused, catchy buzzwords, but when you look at the hidden and embedded costs realistically with an open mind, you can see that Going Green is more destructive to the Earth's environment than meets the eye, for sure.


If you've read this far, congratulations.

Am I against electric cars? Not at all. Bully for Tesla!

I am against knee-jerk reactions to a non-existent need, driven by power-hungry (<- pun intended) politicians.


FWIW.
.
Did you look at Av8OR's post that I was replying to? I was commenting on that particular photo of a coal train AV8OR posted of as a simplistic, politically-charged, unhelpful post.
.
I appreciate all of the research you've apparently done on the topic, I've done my own as well. But you're aiming your incredibly long post at the wrong person. Like you, I do my own research. Like you, I, too, am completely sick of the idiot greenies and elected "officials" playing games with EVs and ramming them down everyone's throats using taxpayer money and the greenies having NOT done their due-diligence and come clean about the true environmental costs of BEVs.
.
There are legitimate use-cases for BEVs and vehicles like Ram's upcoming REV, jut as there are legitimate use-cases where only diesel-powered vehicles can do the job. We all owe it to ourselves and future generations to be diligent and honest in our research, and wise & forward-thinking in our decisions, for our own near-term benefit as well as long-term health of the planet and our economies. It's all quite straightforward and doable, if we all drop the knee-jerk politics, tribalism, etc. and use our brains & backs to do the RIGHT things, not the knee-jerk things (and, yes, BOTH extremes of the political spectrum are, very unfortunately, fundamentally tribalistic & reactionary).
.
 

VectorZ

Ram Guru
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Messages
631
Reaction score
602
Location
Alaska
I am excited to see the truck unveiled next week...Mods, is there going to be a new section added to the forum to account for this new model?
 

SD Rebel

Spends too much time on here
Joined
Jun 29, 2019
Messages
4,145
Reaction score
3,574
Location
San Diego, CA
I'm down for a market differentiator. It's clear fully EV trucks at this point don't make sense for much of the market, they may eventually with improvements in battery technology and infrastructure, but not quite yet.

I still think a hybrid with future synthetics fuels is the way forward, the range extender EV truck is interesting, can't wait to see what they have.
 

go-ram

Ram Guru
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Messages
716
Reaction score
643
...Such as?
.
Anyone in the relatively warm areas of the country, who uses their vehicle for light duty and stays mostly local, whether as a daily-driver private vehicle, or a parts-chaser, or pest control company, or city vehicles that always stay in-town and park in the city yard every night, etc., etc. Not the majority, but a fairly significant minority of vehicle users.
.
EDIT: On another front, there are some pretty interesting efforts being made in producing synthetic liquid hydrocarbon fuels that may turn out to be significantly better for the environment while keeping today's ICE vehicles viable. Of course, initial cost per gallon in the pilot plant is very expensive, but it's a start at keeping ICE vehicles legitimately into the future:
.
Future Fuel: Porsche Sponsors Major eFuel Initiative—at $45/Gallon
.
 
Last edited:

HemiDude

Spends too much time on here
Joined
Jul 5, 2020
Messages
2,576
Reaction score
2,204
Location
Ohio
Going a couple miles down the road for beer, Then coming home to charge your car for 8 hours so you can do it again tomorrow. 🤷🏻‍♂️
My wife already drives her Explorer down to "E"... Now I'm envisioning the scenario where she forgets to plug in her BEV after work :ROFLMAO:
 

theblet

Legendary member
Joined
Feb 8, 2021
Messages
5,323
Reaction score
5,068
My wife already drives her Explorer down to "E"... Now I'm envisioning the scenario where she forgets to plug in her BEV after work :ROFLMAO:
True that! And if she runs out on the side of the road, you can just bring a can full of electricity to get her home! 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Darksteel165

Legendary member
Joined
Dec 16, 2021
Messages
5,960
Reaction score
3,535
Location
Massachusetts
they might come out /invent a powerpack that can be plug in to give you 20 miles lol they could call it the power can ahahaha
How many hours do you need to wait for it to charge after plugging said power pack in?

Also it will only weigh 150lbs and cost $1500 right?
Even the etorque battery is $1500 and that can't even power the truck with the size of it.

Will need to call roadside assistance and they will show up with a Cummings and a generator to plug into for an hour or so.

Gives people lots of time to see the retard that ran out of electricity on the side of the highway so that they never make that mistake again (and Probbly sell their EV)
 

crusher

Ram Guru
Joined
Mar 2, 2022
Messages
1,470
Reaction score
623
Location
st-jean quebec canada
How many hours do you need to wait for it to charge after plugging said power pack in?

Also it will only weigh 150lbs and cost $1500 right?
Even the etorque battery is $1500 and that can't even power the truck with the size of it.

Will need to call roadside assistance and they will show up with a Cummings and a generator to plug into for an hour or so.

Gives people lots of time to see the retard that ran out of electricity on the side of the highway so that they never make that mistake again (and Probbly sell their EV)
you know i was kidding right?
 

Darksteel165

Legendary member
Joined
Dec 16, 2021
Messages
5,960
Reaction score
3,535
Location
Massachusetts
lol okay gottcha :)

i think for now the only available option for electric cars running out of battery is a towing
I have seen generators driven out before, or at least pictures of it.
Some EVs can plug into regular outlets and take a few hours to charge.

I wonder how messed up an EV would get fully discharged? The 1500s go haywire when the 12V battery is dying even with a working eTorque battery in back.
 

Ramroo

Ram Guru
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
718
Reaction score
1,038
Yea, no. Count me out .
Im sure I don’t have the required mount of stickers to go on the back.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top