Oil!!!!

[HoosierTrooper]

Oh but everything on YouTube is true
Well said though!

Oh yeah, no doubt! People just need to understand that he’s selling a product with his “tests” and he has to make them entertaining and lead people to believe he’s proving something. His cold flow tests are a great example. In this one he tests two synthetic oils of the same grade, they both flow as you’d expect they would at that temperature. One, in this case the Super Tech, beat the Redline to the finish line by a very small margin. So, what does that prove? Does it prove that Super Tech is better than Redline? Or, does it prove nothing since both oils would’ve gotten into the bearings by the oil pump which is all that matters.

 

[PowerJrod]

Oh yeah, no doubt! People just need to understand that he’s selling a product with his “tests” and he has to make them entertaining and lead people to believe he’s proving something. His cold flow tests are a great example. In this one he tests two synthetic oils of the same grade, they both flow as you’d expect they would at that temperature. One, in this case the Super Tech, beat the Redline to the finish line by a very small margin. So, what does that prove? Does it prove that Super Tech is better than Redline? Or, does it prove nothing since both oils would’ve gotten into the bearings by the oil pump which is all that matters.

Right, it's like comparing 4Auto vs Part time AWD lol. But I'd be more interested in a high heat test with these oils. We already know synthetic flows in cold temps...let's see a comparative test that's a little more practical in high demand operating conditions!

 

[HoosierTrooper]

Right, it's like comparing 4Auto vs Part time AWD lol. But I'd be more interested in a high heat test with these oils. We already know synthetic flows in cold temps...let's see a comparative test that's a little more practical in high demand operating conditions!

That's the purpose of the Noack volatility test, which he tried to replicate. It estimates the amount of oil loss due to high heat in the engine. Some companies show the Noack percentage on their product data sheets and others don't. Valvoline just shows that theirs is <15% on most of their products, which is the maximum allowed. The GM Dexos 1 generation 2 spec requires it to be less than 13.5%, and that's going to be lowered to 12.5% when generation 3 rolls out. That's really the only test that looks at high heat, and it has some issues that is in the article I linked above.

 

[Grape_Ape]

Here's another bit of anecdotal evidence. The Mazda has been using Amazon Basics Full Synthetic for probably the last 30-40,000 miles. No issues with it either.

I like the oil playoffs Project Farm did. His bearing test is what we used at the shop I worked at when we were trying to sell our customers Royal Purple. He also came to a similar conclusion as most people. I think the final two oils were Penzoil Ultra Platinum and one of the Amsoil products. Both highly respected oils with Amsoil winning. It was interesting to see how all of the products stacked up according to his tests. I agree he isn't doing tests on calibrated instrumentation but I do think it gives you some idea of how well the different oils perform.

At the end of the day Sturgill Simpson probably says it the best in his song "Keep it between the lines" when he says "Motor oil is motor oil, just keep the engine clean."

As long as you're not using subpar oils and exceeding change intervals I believe in trusting the engineering department.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

I’d like to see a couple of the oil companies that spent millions of dollars on research, development and legitimate testing in order to offer a quality product to their customers take legal action against him for earning an income by claiming their products “failed” his phony tests. But it’s probably not worth their time and effort and it would be hard to prove how many people took him serious enough to affect their sales.

 

[Grape_Ape]

I’d like to see a couple of the oil companies that spent millions of dollars on research, development and legitimate testing in order to offer a quality product to their customers take legal action against him for earning an income by claiming their products “failed” his phony tests. But it’s probably not worth their time and effort and it would be hard to prove how many people took him serious enough to affect their sales.

I don't think any failed his tests. They were just scored based off his various tests. So the ones that performed the best on his tests were the ones that advanced. I didn't find it malicious at all. In fact he even points to the "lower" performers and says those are what he uses in his personal vehicles.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

Failed as in they didn’t perform well enough according to his tests to advance further in his competition to determine the best oil in the US. I can’t even say “his tests” with a straight face.

Also, your experience with the Amazon Basics is not a bit surprising. It’s a very high quality oil made by Warren, the same as Super Tech, that meets all of the API and ILSAC licensing requirements and the manufacturers specs in the appropriate grades. I looked on Amazon today and even though it’s only been out a couple years it has over 7,000 reviews and 86% of its users gave it five stars.

 

[SpeedyV]

You fellas heard of bobistheoilguy.com? Literally millions of posts on oils and filtration, if you’re into that sort of thing (and you obviously are)...

 

[Nickjansen]

Read all 5 pages and still never got a clear answer or even a decent one... SMH with all the comments about cold pour points and cold starts. THE QUESTION IS ABOUT HEAT. Personally in my Nissan GTR the recommended is 0w40 but if using for racing or high performance driving or in extreme temps.. recommends to use 10w40. I am looking for real knowledge on this subject and if our trucks would run better in the summer and be more ''protected'' if we ran possibly 5w30 in the summer and 5w20 in the winter months. Or possibly even more extremes like 10w40 in summer is say Palm Springs and 0w20 in winter in Canada. All that being said.. I found it interesting on the chart linked earlier how 0w40 seemed to be best all around at any operating temp. There is obviously more at play. But none of us wingnuts have even cracked a hint of what really makes up manufacturers recommendations.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

My two cents is that you're not going to find an "expert" anywhere that can give you a conclusive yes or no answer for the Hemi 5.7L. A lot of folks "feel" like 5W-30 may protect better in the heat but FCA apparently didn't come to that conclusion during their testing of 5W-20. Apparently GM came to the same conclusion during their testing of 0W-20 for the 5.3L EcoTec engines, because that's the only grade they recommend for all conditions. The usual response is that the only reason FCA and GM and all of the other manufacturers of trucks sold in the US have been recommending XW-20 oils for many years is CAFE, and that is part of the reason, but I believe their testing has shown that it provides more than adequate protection under all operating conditions.

The manufacturers have forced the oil companies to develop oils that meet their requirements, which includes wear protection while still helping provide good gas mileage. GM has led the way when they began requiring oils meet their Dexos standards before they can be used in their vehicles while under warranty. Some of the GM Dexos standards are tougher than what the API has. The API volatility test that's known as the Noack test requires oil not lose more than 15% during the test, but the Dexos generation 2 limit is 13.5% and will drop to 12.5% when generation 3 goes into effect. This test is a good indication of how well an oil holds up under high heat, so any oil that displays the Dexos symbol on the front of the container has met that standard. Testing and certifications are all that really matters.

People can, and do, argue all day about whether or not 5W-30 protects "better" in the heat than the recommended XW-20 but really can't provide any hard data to prove it. I firmly believe that if FCA had found that 5W-20 didn't provide adequate protection for the 5.7L they would've chosen a different grade. After all they recommend 0W-40 in the SRT, which apparently is what their tests found to be the best grade for that engine. If they were strictly interested in CAFE they would've went with XW-20 or 30 and hoped for the best. FCA recommends synthetic 5W-30 be used in the 2.0L turbo in my Jeep, again because their tests found it to be the proper grade. It all boils down to whether you believe that 5W-20 was chosen because of FCA's testing or you can spend a lot of time trying to find a genuine expert, and not a hack like Project Farm, that can show conclusive evidence that a higher grade works better.

Some manufacturers do recommend moving up a grade under certain high stress conditions, like your Nissan. Here's what I found to be what I believe is the recommendation for your car:

"Mobil 1 (0W-40) (100% synthetic) is the factory fill oil. The VR38 engine with its plasma-sprayed bores was developed
using this oil. NISSAN cannot ensure proper engine operation and durability if other synthetic oil is used. If Mobil 1 (0W-40) is not available, Mobil 1 (10W-40) (100% synthetic) may be used; however, some performance loss may be noticed.

Furthermore, replacement of the engine oil with MOTUL NISMO COMPETITION OIL type 2193E (5W-40) is recommended for the frequent high-performance driving opportunities. NISSAN cannot ensure proper engine operation and durability if another synthetic oil is used."

10W-40 is an odd weight, I'm surprised it's still even made because I don't know of any auto manufacturer that recommends it as the first choice oil. It does have some use in older vehicles but 0W-40 is so much better it really serves no purpose anymore and 0W-40 has become the factory fill on some of the highest horsepower engines out there, like the SRT and the Corvette among others for a reason. It's probably the best oil being made right now. If I ever felt the need to move away from using 5W-20 in my Hemi, which I won't, I'd skip right over the XW-30 oils and go straight to a 0W-40.

 

[Nickjansen]

My two cents is that you're not going to find an "expert" anywhere that can give you a conclusive yes or no answer for the Hemi 5.7L. A lot of folks "feel" like 5W-30 may protect better in the heat but FCA apparently didn't come to that conclusion during their testing of 5W-20. Apparently GM came to the same conclusion during their testing of 0W-20 for the 5.3L EcoTec engines, because that's the only grade they recommend for all conditions. The usual response is that the only reason FCA and GM and all of the other manufacturers of trucks sold in the US have been recommending XW-20 oils for many years is CAFE, and that is part of the reason, but I believe their testing has shown that it provides more than adequate protection under all operating conditions.

The manufacturers have forced the oil companies to develop oils that meet their requirements, which includes wear protection while still helping provide good gas mileage. GM has led the way when they began requiring oils meet their Dexos standards before they can be used in their vehicles while under warranty. Some of the GM Dexos standards are tougher than what the API has. The API volatility test that's known as the Noack test requires oil not lose more than 15% during the test, but the Dexos generation 2 limit is 13.5% and will drop to 12.5% when generation 3 goes into effect. This test is a good indication of how well an oil holds up under high heat, so any oil that displays the Dexos symbol on the front of the container has met that standard. Testing and certifications are all that really matters.

People can, and do, argue all day about whether or not 5W-30 protects "better" in the heat than the recommended XW-20 but really can't provide any hard data to prove it. I firmly believe that if FCA had found that 5W-20 didn't provide adequate protection for the 5.7L they would've chosen a different grade. After all they recommend 0W-40 in the SRT, which apparently is what their tests found to be the best grade for that engine. If they were strictly interested in CAFE they would've went with XW-20 or 30 and hoped for the best. FCA recommends synthetic 5W-30 be used in the 2.0L turbo in my Jeep, again because their tests found it to be the proper grade. It all boils down to whether you believe that 5W-20 was chosen because of FCA's testing or you can spend a lot of time trying to find a genuine expert, and not a hack like Project Farm, that can show conclusive evidence that a higher grade works better.

Some manufacturers do recommend moving up a grade under certain high stress conditions, like your Nissan. Here's what I found to be what I believe is the recommendation for your car:

"Mobil 1 (0W-40) (100% synthetic) is the factory fill oil. The VR38 engine with its plasma-sprayed bores was developed
using this oil. NISSAN cannot ensure proper engine operation and durability if other synthetic oil is used. If Mobil 1 (0W-40) is not available, Mobil 1 (10W-40) (100% synthetic) may be used; however, some performance loss may be noticed.

Furthermore, replacement of the engine oil with MOTUL NISMO COMPETITION OIL type 2193E (5W-40) is recommended for the frequent high-performance driving opportunities. NISSAN cannot ensure proper engine operation and durability if another synthetic oil is used."

10W-40 is an odd weight, I'm surprised it's still even made because I don't know of any auto manufacturer that recommends it as the first choice oil. It does have some use in older vehicles but 0W-40 is so much better it really serves no purpose anymore and 0W-40 has become the factory fill on some of the highest horsepower engines out there, like the SRT and the Corvette among others for a reason. It's probably the best oil being made right now. If I ever felt the need to move away from using 5W-20 in my Hemi, which I won't, I'd skip right over the XW-30 oils and go straight to a 0W-40.

Thank you. Agree entirely.

 

[silver billet]

My two cents is that you're not going to find an "expert" anywhere that can give you a conclusive yes or no answer for the Hemi 5.7L. A lot of folks "feel" like 5W-30 may protect better in the heat but FCA apparently didn't come to that conclusion during their testing of 5W-20. Apparently GM came to the same conclusion during their testing of 0W-20 for the 5.3L EcoTec engines, because that's the only grade they recommend for all conditions. The usual response is that the only reason FCA and GM and all of the other manufacturers of trucks sold in the US have been recommending XW-20 oils for many years is CAFE, and that is part of the reason, but I believe their testing has shown that it provides more than adequate protection under all operating conditions.

The manufacturers have forced the oil companies to develop oils that meet their requirements, which includes wear protection while still helping provide good gas mileage. GM has led the way when they began requiring oils meet their Dexos standards before they can be used in their vehicles while under warranty. Some of the GM Dexos standards are tougher than what the API has. The API volatility test that's known as the Noack test requires oil not lose more than 15% during the test, but the Dexos generation 2 limit is 13.5% and will drop to 12.5% when generation 3 goes into effect. This test is a good indication of how well an oil holds up under high heat, so any oil that displays the Dexos symbol on the front of the container has met that standard. Testing and certifications are all that really matters.

People can, and do, argue all day about whether or not 5W-30 protects "better" in the heat than the recommended XW-20 but really can't provide any hard data to prove it. I firmly believe that if FCA had found that 5W-20 didn't provide adequate protection for the 5.7L they would've chosen a different grade. After all they recommend 0W-40 in the SRT, which apparently is what their tests found to be the best grade for that engine. If they were strictly interested in CAFE they would've went with XW-20 or 30 and hoped for the best. FCA recommends synthetic 5W-30 be used in the 2.0L turbo in my Jeep, again because their tests found it to be the proper grade. It all boils down to whether you believe that 5W-20 was chosen because of FCA's testing or you can spend a lot of time trying to find a genuine expert, and not a hack like Project Farm, that can show conclusive evidence that a higher grade works better.

Some manufacturers do recommend moving up a grade under certain high stress conditions, like your Nissan. Here's what I found to be what I believe is the recommendation for your car:

"Mobil 1 (0W-40) (100% synthetic) is the factory fill oil. The VR38 engine with its plasma-sprayed bores was developed
using this oil. NISSAN cannot ensure proper engine operation and durability if other synthetic oil is used. If Mobil 1 (0W-40) is not available, Mobil 1 (10W-40) (100% synthetic) may be used; however, some performance loss may be noticed.

Furthermore, replacement of the engine oil with MOTUL NISMO COMPETITION OIL type 2193E (5W-40) is recommended for the frequent high-performance driving opportunities. NISSAN cannot ensure proper engine operation and durability if another synthetic oil is used."

10W-40 is an odd weight, I'm surprised it's still even made because I don't know of any auto manufacturer that recommends it as the first choice oil. It does have some use in older vehicles but 0W-40 is so much better it really serves no purpose anymore and 0W-40 has become the factory fill on some of the highest horsepower engines out there, like the SRT and the Corvette among others for a reason. It's probably the best oil being made right now. If I ever felt the need to move away from using 5W-20 in my Hemi, which I won't, I'd skip right over the XW-30 oils and go straight to a 0W-40.

It's not just opinion though. High dose of Moly for example, is better than none.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

It's not just opinion though. High dose of Moly for example, is better than none.

That is an opinion because there are several very good oils, such as some of the Pennzoil Euro line which meets very tough ACEA specs with no moly. Also, some companies have replaced moly with titanium which their testing has found to work better, Castrol and Valvoline being two of them.Boron is also being used very successfully.

 

[silver billet]

That is an opinion because there are several very good oils, such as some of the Pennzoil Euro line which meets very tough ACEA specs with no moly. Also, some companies have replaced moly with titanium which their testing has found to work better, Castrol and Valvoline being two of them.Boron is also being used very successfully.

Right, so then it's not an opinion if it's been found to work better...

I could have worded it better; my point is that many people just spout "it's all the same, pick whatever you want as long as it meets the specs", but that's not the case. There is real science at work in these oils (whether it's moly or boron or whatever), and some oils are going to be better than others; <-- that is not an opinion, there is a scientific reason for why that is the case.

I'm not that familiar with Pennzoil, only that I believe it's been tested and had little to no effect on reducing hemi tick. Many premium oils have been tested (apparently), and so far the consensus is Redline 5w-30 is what is required and works best. Other testers have used cheaper synthetics and then added moly in themselves and had good results, so it really does appear that Moly is the "goto ingredient" for getting rid of the tick. Our hemis (anecdotally) appear to run best on it. And not just any flavour of Redline either (0w-40 doesn't work). The 5w-30 (and 0w-30 for cold climates) are rated the highest.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

My point was that you’re statement “High dose of moly for example, is better than none.” is an opinion not based on facts by pointing out that there are a lot of very good oils that do not contain moly. There are other additives used in place of moly, such as titanium, that work just as well or better. Also, what is your definition of a “high dose of moly”? There are a lot of oils using low to moderate treat rates of moly, less than 100 ppm that perform very well.

If high levels of moly was the magic bullet then the simplest thing for companies like Valvoline, Mobil, Pennzoil and others would be to just dump a lot of moly in their products and call it a day, but they don’t because their testing has shown there are better ways to produce a good product without it or at relatively low treat rates.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

Also, here’s a Blackstone Labs newsletter from 2017 that pretty much says that brands don’t make a whole lot of difference in average wear rates based on their study of thousands of UOA,s.Since 2017 oils have had two upgrades, SN+ in 2018 and SP this year so the oils available today are much better than just three years ago, and the additive packages are getting more similar because of what they’ve had to change to fight LSPI.

The important thing is to pick an oil that meets the manufacturers requirements, is API and ILSAC, or ACEA If applicable certified and is the proper grade.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Aug-17-ENG.pdf

 

[silver billet]

You can choose to believe that Moly isn't important, and that "brands don't make a whole lot of difference in average wear rates"; but I'm telling you, there is an AUDIBLE difference between different oils in my Hemi, and many many other hemis. Audible. Don't care what labs are paid to tell you, my ear tells me there is a difference.

So at this point you have several choices:
- choose not to believe the many hundreds of posts talking about this (we're all wrong, it's in our head)
- even though there is an audible difference, it is a meaningless difference (in terms of protection for the engine components)
- our hemi's have a special problem not identified in lab testing and/or lab testing is not conclusive

 

[Grape_Ape]

Or you can just choose to trust the lab results vs anecdotal evidence while still using the oil of your choice? They're not mutually exclusive.

All the lab results from Blackstone say is basically - "Use a reputable oil while performing proper maintenance on your vehicle and you'll not notice any real difference in wear."

If you hear a difference in your vehicle from one oil to the next then use the oil that makes you most comfortable. Most of these threads devolve into which "upper end" motor oil is the best. At the end of the day if they're passing their certifications and meeting all the specs it really doesn't matter. If you're already concerned enough to be making sure you put an upper end oil in your vehicle then imo you've already demonstrated that you care about maintaining it and you'll probably get a long life out of it.

Since being on these forums I've kind of gotten a kick out of the people who don't trust the engineering team that decided what weight oil these engines need. The reason I find it humorous is because Chrysler doesn't need any help trashing their reputation lol. If they're really serious about trying to make Ram stand apart from their rivals the last thing they want to do is let their powertrain go down the crapper.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

You can choose to believe that Moly isn't important, and that "brands don't make a whole lot of difference in average wear rates"; but I'm telling you, there is an AUDIBLE difference between different oils in my Hemi, and many many other hemis. Audible. Don't care what labs are paid to tell you, my ear tells me there is a difference.

So at this point you have several choices:
- choose not to believe the many hundreds of posts talking about this (we're all wrong, it's in our head)
- even though there is an audible difference, it is a meaningless difference (in terms of protection for the engine components)
- our hemi's have a special problem not identified in lab testing and/or lab testing is not conclusive

I think we were not on the same page, and if it was my fault I apologize. I was talking about additive levels of oil, specifically molybdenum, in general and not it's effect on the hemi tick specifically. Do I believe owners who say Redline quieted down their engines? Of course I do, I'm in no position to question what they are hearing. Is it due to the slightly higher levels of moly in their High-Performance 5W-30 or something else? Who knows. Zinc and phosphorus are two of the main anti wear additives in oil and the API has set maximum limits of each in licensed oils. Since the Redline HP oil is not licensed by the API they use significantly higher levels of each, could that be what quiets the hemi? Could it be because Redline HP is blended towards the upper end of the 30 grade so it's a little thicker? Is it a combination of all the components of Redline HP? Who knows. The only ay to know for certain would be some very extensive testing by a reputable lab and who would want to pony up the cash for that?

A little side note on Redline FWIW. ConocoPhillips purchased Redline several years ago. CP also produces Kendall GT-1 and Phillips 66 oils and they share the same GM Dexos license number as the Redline Professional Series of API/ILSAC certified oils. So, what does that mean? It means that the Redline Professional Series is just re-badged Kendall GT-1, which is a very good oil, that they sell for almost twice the price. And Kendall GT-1 has advertised on their containers for years that they use Liquid Titanium in the GT-1. Bottom line is, if you choose the Professional Series to quiet the engine you're not getting anything special since it's just another API licensed oil that meets Chrysler MS-6395 so it's very similar to off the shelf products like Castrol, Valvoline and others.

Edited to add that Fords Motorcraft line of oils are also made by ConocoPhillips but obviously they are not going to apply for GM's Dexos approval since they have their own certifications.

 

[silver billet]

I think we were not on the same page, and if it was my fault I apologize. I was talking about additive levels of oil, specifically molybdenum, in general and not it's effect on the hemi tick specifically. Do I believe owners who say Redline quieted down their engines? Of course I do, I'm in no position to question what they are hearing. Is it due to the slightly higher levels of moly in their High-Performance 5W-30 or something else? Who knows. Zinc and phosphorus are two of the main anti wear additives in oil and the API has set maximum limits of each in licensed oils. Since the Redline HP oil is not licensed by the API they use significantly higher levels of each, could that be what quiets the hemi? Could it be because Redline HP is blended towards the upper end of the 30 grade so it's a little thicker? Is it a combination of all the components of Redline HP? Who knows. The only ay to know for certain would be some very extensive testing by a reputable lab and who would want to pony up the cash for that?

A little side note on Redline FWIW. ConocoPhillips purchased Redline several years ago. CP also produces Kendall GT-1 and Phillips 66 oils and they share the same GM Dexos license number as the Redline Professional Series of API/ILSAC certified oils. So, what does that mean? It means that the Redline Professional Series is just re-badged Kendall GT-1, which is a very good oil, that they sell for almost twice the price. And Kendall GT-1 has advertised on their containers for years that they use Liquid Titanium in the GT-1. Bottom line is, if you choose the Professional Series to quiet the engine you're not getting anything special since it's just another API licensed oil that meets Chrysler MS-6395 so it's very similar to off the shelf products like Castrol, Valvoline and others.

Edited to add that Fords Motorcraft line of oils are also made by ConocoPhillips but obviously they are not going to apply for GM's Dexos approval since they have their own certifications.

It's completely unimportant whether Redline is "rebadged". I couldn't care less. I'm not a zealot for any particular brand. The ingredients in Redline are what matters, and anecdotally, it has been tested and verified by many people that the higher the dose of Moly, the better it is (hemi tick). Even within Redline, there is a recommendation to use 5w-30 or 0w-30. Not 5w-40? The difference? Moly content in 5w-30 is higher.

So again; it's logically inconsistent to claim that all high end oils are the same, and they all provide the same protection, when we have proof that one particular oil is making a difference. The Hemi tick is what we're using as proof that there is a difference, but if the Moly is proven to work better at quieting the tick, and it does, and we know scientifically what moly is doing, it stands to reason that oils without this (or some other ingredient that does the same job) are better than those without, even for engines without the tick.

It may not be required for every engine, but it's certainly a higher quality oil all the same.