Theft deterent?

[DesertRebel]

I did some research last night on car theft with keyless entry and keyless start/stop on vehicles. If you leave your key fobs laying out on your kitchen counter like I do, a car thief can use a transmitter to catch the signal of the key fob to clone it and just drive off with your vehicle. I guess one of these bags that can block the signals would be a good start. I'm just posting a link to the first one that popped up, I'm sure there're better ones, but you get the idea.
Faraday Bag for Key Fob (2 Pack), TICONN Faraday Cage Protector - Car RFID Signal Blocking, Anti-Theft Pouch, Anti-Hacking Case Blocker (Carbon Fiber Texture) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MDF5TX9/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_o3ZjEbAWH44RH

I've been pondering this before posting - and I'm not able to reconcile my apparent ignorance of this... is there a continuous signal being sent to/from fob/vehicle?

I figured there would only be a signal when activated - but admittedly, I'm not well versed on the technical aspects of it.

Sorry for the question to what is likely a simple answer... I'm just not getting it.

 

[Glenn54]

Thanks. I think this is what I'm looking for. Did you install it or have it done?

It’s a Viper vssds4p based off of my paper work with the shock and tilt sensor and the GPS SmartStart add on. It ties in with the factory system so I can still lock and unlock my doors with the key fob in my pocket like normal and can use the alarm fob or my regular key fob and it auto locks and sets itself after so many seconds.

 

[Glenn54]

I like this idea a lot but I'm afraid it may damage the paint on my Laramie.

View attachment 44669

 

[Ken Robbins]

I've been pondering this before posting - and I'm not able to reconcile my apparent ignorance of this... is there a continuous signal being sent to/from fob/vehicle?

I figured there would only be a signal when activated - but admittedly, I'm not well versed on the technical aspects of it.

Sorry for the question to what is likely a simple answer... I'm just not getting it.

Honestly, I really don't know and I thought the same thing as you. I didn't realize some kind of transmitter could do such a thing until I read about it.

 

[DesertRebel]

Honestly, I really don't know and I thought the same thing as you. I didn't realize some kind of transmitter could do such a thing until I read about it.

If it only sends a signal when activated (which makes sense) then a pocket shield isn't going to help anything - since qyou would need to remove the protection when activating the fob.

It's either a marketing gimmick- or I dont understand the way the fob works.

Also, if it was that easy to steal a keyless entry vehicle, I have to believe it would be all over the news about cars being stolen... manufacturers wouldn't even offer the option if it was as easy as being portrayed.

Just my thoughts... but I'm open to learning what I dont know.

 

[Ellisstrong]

Thanks. I think this is what I'm looking for. Did you install it or have it done?

Oh I had it done by a shop that I knew does good work down in Miami area while I was down there for New Year.

 

[derp]

If it only sends a signal when activated (which makes sense) then a pocket shield isn't going to help anything - since qyou would need to remove the protection when activating the fob.

It's either a marketing gimmick- or I dont understand the way the fob works.

Also, if it was that easy to steal a keyless entry vehicle, I have to believe it would be all over the news about cars being stolen... manufacturers wouldn't even offer the option if it was as easy as being portrayed.

Just my thoughts... but I'm open to learning what I dont know.

it has been covered if you have been looking. even as easy as it is, still more difficult to compromise than a mechanical key.

 

[Ken Robbins]

I've been pondering this before posting - and I'm not able to reconcile my apparent ignorance of this... is there a continuous signal being sent to/from fob/vehicle?

I figured there would only be a signal when activated - but admittedly, I'm not well versed on the technical aspects of it.

Sorry for the question to what is likely a simple answer... I'm just not getting it.

I'm not getting it either, but a simple Google search shows how common it is. Is it a gimmick, I doubt it with our technology today. At this time my key fob is still sitting on the kitchen counter and my wife thinks I'm crazy. She said you don't have to worry about that where we live. LOL

Most Keyless Cars Are Easy to Steal Using Cheap Equipment, Consumer Advocates Warn

The U.K. consumer organization Which? has issued a fresh warning about the lack of security in keyless cars.

fortune.com

keyless start vehicles stolen - Google Search

www.google.com

 

[DesertRebel]

it has been covered if you have been looking. even as easy as it is, still more difficult to compromise than a mechanical key.

All I saw is signal ingercepted... what I dont understand is - is there a constant signal being sent?

 

[derp]

All I saw is signal ingercepted... what I dont understand is - is there a constant signal being sent?

it is a challenge/response system.
the truck sends out a beacon "challenge" to any keys listening nearby.

the fob listens for the challenge, (listening takes far less power than transmitting) and when it hears the challenge, it responds with its secure information.

the hack is when you take an antenna and listen to the truck's challenge broadcast at a distance, and then relay that back out to the area where the key is via another transmitter.

then you use a sensitive long range directional antenna to listen to the response and relay that back to the truck's challenge. effectively you are being long range relayed with more sensitive radios and antennas than are used stock to extend the range of the key fob dramatically. fob in hand is not needed, just fooling the fob and truck into thinking they are closer to each other so that the system unlocks and lets you start/drive.

once a thief is inside the truck the basic rule of info security is met "any system with physical access is effectively owned."

 

[derp]

I'm not getting it either, but a simple Google search shows how common it is. Is it a gimmick, I doubt it with our technology today. At this time my key fob is still sitting on the kitchen counter and my wife thinks I'm crazy. She said you don't have to worry about that where we live. LOL

Most Keyless Cars Are Easy to Steal Using Cheap Equipment, Consumer Advocates Warn

The U.K. consumer organization Which? has issued a fresh warning about the lack of security in keyless cars.

fortune.com

keyless start vehicles stolen - Google Search

www.google.com

the equipment used is pretty straightforward usually as a pair of software defined radios (SDR) that are each coupled to sets of directional antennas to set up a relay between the fob and the truck where they would normally be out of range of each other. the attacker doesn't even need to know the information being sent and recieved from the truck to the fob, just what frequency it is on and do a high fidelity copy of that raw information from one to the other.

 

[DesertRebel]

Thank you for the clarification derp. That answers the next question of battery life from continual signal (you addressed that with your"listening vs transmitting" explanation).

Presumably the distance is significant - which seems odd... I'd think there would be a failsafe that after a reasonable distance from sending unit, communication would be lost... "reasonable,," imo would be within immediate proximity to vehicle. Is there a reason the sending transmitter needs to reach fob at a distance beyond immediate proximity to truck? Or is it technologically not possible?

I guess I'm getting off topic - I'm just trying to understand the reality of the threat - and whether considerable precautions are warranted or just hypersensitivity.

 

[derp]

Thank you for the clarification derp. That answers the next question of battery life from continual signal (you addressed that with your"listening vs transmitting" explanation).

Presumably the distance is significant - which seems odd... I'd think there would be a failsafe that after a reasonable distance from sending unit, communication would be lost... "reasonable,," imo would be within immediate proximity to vehicle. Is there a reason the sending transmitter needs to reach fob at a distance beyond immediate proximity to truck? Or is it technologically not possible?

I guess I'm getting off topic - I'm just trying to understand the reality of the threat - and whether considerable precautions are warranted or just hypersensitivity.

the fob and truck rf hub are designed specifically to send out a weak enough signal and use antennas that are low enough gain to effectively limit the range of the communication. the hack is to pick up those weak signals using an sensitive radio with good antennas, and then blast that signal back out at a strong enough power that the truck and fob "think" they are close to each other.

we can't accurately measure the time of flight on the signal between the fob and the truck, as that would require synchronized clocks on the fob and truck. a continuously running clock on the fob would be a drain that would shorten the battery life. also, the distances involved even on a boosted signal are measured in dozens of feet, and not effectively subject to a transmission delay as the signal moves at near the speed of light (speed of light in open air being less than a vacuum).

An acceptable mechanical interlock on the fob that would prevent this kind of man in the middle is either the shielding bag, or a toggled switch to actually disconnect the antenna assembly electrically from the communications chip on the fob. This would then require you to " turn on" your key when you get ready to drive your truck. one way that could be implemented physically into the fob would be an idle sleep on the fob that used a vibration sensor to only wake up the key when it has been handled in the last 10 seconds or so. as long as you are walking, holding the key or such, the fob would be "on" and without that, the fob would sleep until handled.

an idle sleep fob would prevent the "kitchen counter, keyhook" type attacks, but not so much the attack where you are chilling in starbucks with your keys clipped to your pocket.

 

[DesertRebel]

Again, thank you for the thorough explanations derp...

Apparently, without an entirely different method of communication between fob and sending unit - there is no way to limit the signal pulse based on distance from vehicle... I realize now, that's not possible because the two would never know distance without sending signal periodically.

I have to believe theres a way to develope keyless entry without this flaw. But that's for someone else to figure out.

Oh, and to your last sentence... that's an easy fix - dont go to Starbucks

 

[Ken Robbins]

the equipment used is pretty straightforward usually as a pair of software defined radios (SDR) that are each coupled to sets of directional antennas to set up a relay between the fob and the truck where they would normally be out of range of each other. the attacker doesn't even need to know the information being sent and recieved from the truck to the fob, just what frequency it is on and do a high fidelity copy of that raw information from one to the other.

Thank you Derp. Very well explained.

 

[Bluesurf]

Yesterday was a very bad for me. i gt a text from a Dr. that my script was sent to a CVS Pharmacy in West Houston. Its a very nice area however I was not happy about going to S.Mason and Highland Knolls Roads t the CVS. I went in to the Pharmacy, I was in there for about 8 minutes max. When I cane out some animal broke into about 4 cars and trucks. What a mess in my truck. The rear window exploded in and the glass was everywhere. The tiniest shards, very dangerous. The guy went into the window to grab my gym back pack. In doing this he scratched the paint on the door where it will need entire painting. While reaching over the glass on his stomach destroyed the leather door card completely. The alarm never went off because for 70K+, you get a useless Bull Shiff alarm. They know never to open the door. I refrained from drooping the truck at the Dealer in fear of what new damage they will cause me. I brought the truck to collision place near my home. He did work for me last November on a Hybrid Sedan. My insurance is already waiting for his estimate of repair. The door card is a total. The aluminium speaker is still perfect. I told the guy only factory parts and make sure the truck gets acoustical glass factory tinted in the glass itself. My guess is the repair will pass 2500-3500 dollars.
After this i'll go to Best Buy and talk to the Geek Boys for and additional glass & perimeter alarm system that can be installed. I got a warning weeks from local news that this was happening all over Houston. It was my fault for parking in the shade. What a #$%*!* bummer. Had the Pharmacy employees has been all working and not bull shiffing I would have caught the dogs. Fyi..Texas is GUN Country! The manager was very nice we went over the security tapes however mu truck was at the cutoff of the lone camera. I have a feeling this happens quite a bit in this location. Everyone Beware!