Rebel Toy Hauler First Tow

[andyc16]

This past weekend I set up my equalizer this weekend and did the first tow with the new Rebel. Loved the way it towed! I would like to ad some airbags in the future for some piece of mind. I did hit the scales though and I will need to make some cargo adjustments. I did not have the blue barrel in the bed of the truck that is pictured. I was weighed with a full fresh water tank, 1 dirtbike, and me and my wife in the truck. Looks like im good on axle weights but combined I am 80lbs over GVWR. There is a 30 gallon fuel station that I normally keep 15+ gallons in that was empty. It is located behind the axles so once that is filled it will help. I am also going to remove 1 of my propane tanks since all of last year I didnt go through one whole tank. I will also move my generator from the front storage to the garage area behind the axles. I am thinking this should all help. In the future I would like to add an auxiliary water tank in the back of the trailer for pressure washer purposes. I think these toy haulers have such a high tongue weight for guys with SxS's putting a bunch of weight behind the axles but it really kills the guy with 1 dirtbike lol. I also added Nfab step bars so there is a little extra weight on the cab. Any way I will keep this thread updated after I go racing with it this weekend with some relocated components.

 

[devildodge]

Looks like a great setup. Seems you really thought about it and have a plan for the future.

Thanks for sharing your experience

 

[andyc16]

Maybe if I can just talk my wife into letting me buy another bike I can fix all the problems lol! I also plan on moving the bike further back in the garage i just need to build a new way to secure it.

 

[riccnick]

Any specific reason you're towing with full water tank(s)? That'd be an easy way to get some of that weight out.

Also, when you're moving weight around, you don't have to pile everything behind the axles, just take weight from the front and move it over the axles, you'll get your drop in tongue weight while also keeping the mass where it should be. Mass behind the axles, especially any that's unnecessary, is a bad thing, and will promote sway. Don't use weight in the back as a cantilever for tongue weight, the trailer is not designed for that, and its a bad practice.

The rig looks great by the way, happy travels!

 

[andyc16]

Any specific reason you're towing with full water tank(s)? That'd be an easy way to get some of that weight out.

Also, when you're moving weight around, you don't have to pile everything behind the axles, just take weight from the front and move it over the axles, you'll get your drop in tongue weight while also keeping the mass where it should be. Mass behind the axles, especially any that's unnecessary, is a bad thing, and will promote sway. Don't use weight in the back as a cantilever for tongue weight, the trailer is not designed for that, and its a bad practice.

The rig looks great by the way, happy travels!

Appreciate the advice. I travel with full tanks because motocross tracks do not offer a place to fill for the most part. My trailer is 6,666 lbs dry according to the sticker and I cant remember the exact tongue weight but If memory serves me correctly its just under 1,100 lbs. I believe that the common practice is 10% on the tongue correct? I am not a towing guru by any means. but if that is the case I can afford to shift roughly 6% of the dry weight back to at least the axle. Obviously I am not going to reconfigure my camper so that leaves me with just what is being loaded. My fresh water tank is centered on the axle for the most part maybe slightly ahead but we can go with centered so I would figured that is not going to change my front to rear ratio much at all. I am thinking due to the location of the rear axles I could essentially go more than 6% because of the leverage ratio but I will stick with 6% as a good number to be safe. I also do not travel with lots of gear like people going on week long vacations. Water for a couple showers, 1 days worth of food and drink, bikes and generator. Please correct me if I am thinking about this incorrectly though as I am not as experienced with this as I probably should be.

 

[devildodge]

According to your CAT scale numbers you are at a good point.

If you can weigh the truck without the wdh hooked up and then without the camper, you will be able to calculate the tongue weight and see how much you weight you transferred back to the front axle.

Numerous posts describe how to do this, but if you can not find them I will link them.

I would say your original plan, (and getting your wife to get a dirt bike), will already get you were you want to be.

The biggest thing is tow what you feel comfortable, and be comfortable while towing.

 

[devildodge]

GAWR GAWR GCWR
3900. 4100. 17000
3360. 3920. 13780
240. 180. 3220

You are well within the capacities. Only 80 pounds over GVWR. That is very reasonable and no where near as crazy as some towing numbers I have seen here.

 

[andyc16]

It towed so nice at those weights to be honest. I was extremely please to be able to set the cruise going 70 mph down the highway. It did have a little wiggle to it but not much. It was pretty windy that day. I just feel that if I can get within all my specs great if not I am cool with a few pounds over. I will do some more fiddling with it this weekend maybe on the way to the race I will spend some time at the scale if they are not to busy.

 

[riccnick]

Appreciate the advice. I travel with full tanks because motocross tracks do not offer a place to fill for the most part. My trailer is 6,666 lbs dry according to the sticker and I cant remember the exact tongue weight but If memory serves me correctly its just under 1,100 lbs. I believe that the common practice is 10% on the tongue correct? I am not a towing guru by any means. but if that is the case I can afford to shift roughly 6% of the dry weight back to at least the axle. Obviously I am not going to reconfigure my camper so that leaves me with just what is being loaded. My fresh water tank is centered on the axle for the most part maybe slightly ahead but we can go with centered so I would figured that is not going to change my front to rear ratio much at all. I am thinking due to the location of the rear axles I could essentially go more than 6% because of the leverage ratio but I will stick with 6% as a good number to be safe. I also do not travel with lots of gear like people going on week long vacations. Water for a couple showers, 1 days worth of food and drink, bikes and generator. Please correct me if I am thinking about this incorrectly though as I am not as experienced with this as I probably should be.

Yeah that's what I figured, no water hook up where you stop, makes sense. As far as the tongue weight goes, there's no hard and fast rule for tongue weight that's going to work for every trailer, especially not across different trailer types, like toy haulers vs equipment trailers, vs travel trailers. Every trailer is different, and there's a natural tongue weight (balance) to every trailer, and that percentage can be calculated by using the dry tongue weight and the dry trailer weight. What is your trailer year, make, and model? Once we have both numbers, taking the dry tongue weight and dividing it by the dry trailer weight to get the decimal equivalent of your tongue weight proportion. Multiply that by 100 to convert it to a percent. Here's an example

Dry Tongue Weight : 800
Dry Trailer Weight: 5,500

800 / 5,500 = .145

.145 * 100 = 14.5%

That's your percent to target when your trailer is loaded. If, for instance, you know your trailer weighs 7500 lbs loaded, then you should target a loaded tongue weight of 1,087.5 lbs (7,500 * .145 = 1,087.5)

Now, there is some leeway, however, the important parts are to A: stay close to the natural trailer balance, and B: not overload the truck. So finding a happy medium is key. The other thing to remember is that you don't want to use the weight distribution bars to transfer weight back to the trailer axles, you want to use them to transfer weight from the rear of the truck to the front of the truck. Changing the total amount of weight on the truck (tongue weight) is done by adjusting the height of the hitch, effectively changing the trailer balance (tongue weight percentage) Any time you change the hitch height, you need to re-weigh and re-adjust the weight bars to get the front and rear truck axle weights back into balance.

That's the "by the book" explanation. Most people will just hitch up and go, and eyeball the amount of squat they get, (and then put airbags in if it's too much, lol.)

 

[go-ram]

...
Every trailer is different, and there's a natural tongue weight (balance) to every trailer, and that percentage can be calculated by using the dry tongue weight and the dry trailer weight. What is your trailer year, make, and model? Once we have both numbers, taking the dry tongue weight and dividing it by the dry trailer weight to get the decimal equivalent of your tongue weight proportion. Multiply that by 100 to convert it to a percent. Here's an example

Dry Tongue Weight : 800
Dry Trailer Weight: 5,500

800 / 5,500 = .145

.145 * 100 = 14.5%

That's your percent to target when your trailer is loaded. If, for instance, you know your trailer weighs 7500 lbs loaded, then you should target a loaded tongue weight of 1,087.5 lbs (7,500 * .145 = 1,087.5)

Now, there is some leeway, however, the important parts are to A: stay close to the natural trailer balance, and B: not overload the truck. So finding a happy medium is key. The other thing to remember is that you don't want to use the weight distribution bars to transfer weight back to the trailer axles, you want to use them to transfer weight from the rear of the truck to the front of the truck. Changing the total amount of weight on the truck (tongue weight) is done by adjusting the height of the hitch, effectively changing the trailer balance (tongue weight percentage) Any time you change the hitch height, you need to re-weigh and re-adjust the weight bars to get the front and rear truck axle weights back into balance.

That's the "by the book" explanation. Most people will just hitch up and go, and eyeball the amount of squat they get, (and then put airbags in if it's too much, lol.)

Thanks for that detailed explanation, and best of all, a clear, easy to follow example.

Just curious, does the same basic advice & calculation apply to a 5th-wheel trailer? I know in general 5th-wheel setups put a larger percentage of "tongue" weight on the 5th wheel hitch than do bumper-pull setups. But would you use the same "natural tongue weight" calculation for a 5th-wheel trailer?

Thanks again.

 

[riccnick]

Thanks for that detailed explanation, and best of all, a clear, easy to follow example.

Just curious, does the same basic advice & calculation apply to a 5th-wheel trailer? I know in general 5th-wheel setups put a larger percentage of "tongue" weight on the 5th wheel hitch than do bumper-pull setups. But would you use the same "natural tongue weight" calculation for a 5th-wheel trailer?

Thanks again.

No problem, happy to help if I can, I spent a lot of time running different types of trailers, and I'm an engineer, so the numbers, and where they come from matter to me probably more than most people, lol.

Yes to the comparison with 5th wheels. The natural pin weight can be calculated the same way. With either type of trailer, the important thing is that if you want to use that percentage as a baseline to calculate loaded pin or tongue weight, you obviously must load the trailer evenly, not front or rear heavy. Changing the trailer balance on a fifth wheel using the height of the hitch and adjusting it up and down is a little more complex, as you have to consider clearance to the truck bedsides and tailgate (if running one) when setting the height of the pin.

 

[andyc16]

http://www.forestriverinc.com/rvs/toy-haulers/xlr-boost/27QB/2291 This is the trailer I have I cannot find spec with my options but I know for a fact the UVW is 6,666 lbs. The hitch weight listed here is 1,082 Should be close but that does not include full propane tanks, only empty tanks.

So using your math
Dry Tongue weight: 6,666
Dry Hitch weight: 1,082

1,082 / 6,666 = 0.162
0.162 * 100 = 16.2%

So we basically came to the same conclusion but your saying I should target 16% tongue weight?

Seems everything I have found is 10-15% is a good target but I cant really find much info on "natural trailer balance" maybe you can point me in the right direction on some good reads. To get to 15% I would have to take roughly 83 pounds off the tongue.

 

[riccnick]

http://www.forestriverinc.com/rvs/toy-haulers/xlr-boost/27QB/2291 This is the trailer I have I cannot find spec with my options but I know for a fact the UVW is 6,666 lbs. The hitch weight listed here is 1,082 Should be close but that does not include full propane tanks, only empty tanks.

So using your math
Dry Tongue weight: 6,666
Dry Hitch weight: 1,082

1,082 / 6,666 = 0.162
0.162 * 100 = 16.2%

So we basically came to the same conclusion but your saying I should target 16% tongue weight?

Seems everything I have found is 10-15% is a good target but I cant really find much info on "natural trailer balance" maybe you can point me in the right direction on some good reads. To get to 15% I would have to take roughly 83 pounds off the tongue.

Now, the "natural trailer balance" is kind of my own verbiage for essentially what I consider to be the intended proportion of trailer weight and tongue weight from the manufacturer who designed and built the trailer itself. I'm sure there's a proper term for it out there somewhere, but I do believe it's something most overlook. You have to think about the scenario in which the manufacturer was able to achieve those numbers, and why they publish them. Essentially, a trailer is just a big see-saw, where there is weight on both ends, and a big pivoting point in the middle. Imagine this: if a trailer was perfectly balanced front to rear, and the axles were exactly in the middle, there would actually be ZERO measurable weight at either end of the trailer, as all of the weight would would be applied to the ground at the pivot (axles). Where tongue weight comes in, is when the axles aren't in the middle, and/or the trailer isn't perfectly balanced (usually by design). If you were to leave just about any trailer off it's jack, the tongue would fall to the ground, right? (Say yes). The more tilted the trailer becomes, the more weight is transferred forward on the tongue. What I consider to be the "natural trailer balance", is the effective tongue weight applied to the truck, with the trailer tilted just enough to achieve that dry tongue weight number in the position that the manufacturer intended the trailer to be operated in. Manufacturers know that a lower tongue weight means more trucks will be "able" to tow their trailer, however, they also know that the laws of physics favor more tongue weight in order to achieve trailering stability and better handling characteristics. So they have to decide what the proper balance is, in order to sell enough units, and also have them be safe on the road. That's my argument for sticking to the percentage as much as possible. It keeps you as close to the intended operating principles as possible.

So, to your first question: Yes, if both those weights you listed are unloaded numbers, that percentage is what you should target when loaded. That tongue weight may seem pretty high, but, like mentioned, you have a toy hauler, which is constructed (and used) differently than a typical travel trailer, where that percentage may be closer to 10% more typically. This is exactly my point, honestly. Going by the "10% rule" would leave you with a proportionally light trailer tongue weight, and could even cause you to run the trailer nose up instead of nose down, further decreasing it's resistance to sway, and reducing it's handling characteristics dramatically.

 

[andyc16]

Loaded up, gonna be. More realistic today other than the wife won't be with me.

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[andyc16]

Well here is the slip for the second tow. 100% legal on this one!

Here are the differences from the last tow:
Generator in the back
Added fuel to the fuel station (12 gal)
Tool box over the axles
Beer in the fridge
No wife
N Fab step bars put on the truck

I went about 150 miles and averaged about 7.5 mpg calculated by me not the truck. 99% highway with the cruise set at 70. Towed just as good as last time but it was pretty windy. I am going to get some Timber Grove bags for it soon. Other than that I don't think I would change a thing about how this truck tows, I absolutely love it.

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